44 mag for deer hunting

[LaOtto222]

The 357 and 44 mags are certainly not 300 yard cartridges. As many have noted 75 - 100 for the 357 and 100 to 125 for the 44 is about the max ranges for these guys. Oh, they can kill beyond that range, but for most, they are starting to guess at hold over and for the majority of hunters guessing good enough to drop the bullet into a vital spot with certainty is not realistic. Bullet placement is critical for clean kills and most hunters are not up to the task much beyond 100 yards. Most of the deer killed around here are on the near side of 50 yards. Once in while I see or hear of some one trying to shoot a deer standing or running across a 40 acre field 200+ yards out with a 12 gauge slug or their muzzle loader. I just want to slap them silly, no respect for the deer at all. The trouble is you hear about (but I never seen) some one that made that lucky shot at 250 yards. They guess at the lead, guess for the wind and guess at their exact distance and pull the trigger and their prayer is answered. All it does is encourage some else to try it too.

[cwlongshot]

I guess I omitted the real and obvious reason for leaving the pistol calibers at home.  And, that is distance.  I've shot deer here at home from ten yards to 310 yards, and I'm never sure where they'll show up.  I'd hate to be in a tree stand picking my nose and watching a 10 or 12 point cruise by at 300, holding my .357.  That is why they stay home.  Yes, they will and do kill lots of deer, but it is the same reason my .30-30 stays home.  If it is rainy, foggy, snowing with limited visibility, the .30-30 and the .357 get a day in the field.  I hate seeing something at distance I can't hit.

This is EXACTLY how I feel. But I also know in my area certain pieces will NEVER afford an shot over 50-75 yards. The spots ALWAYS get the nod for the pistol caliber rifles. My 500 and 357 MAXI get about 99% of what I grab in recent years. It used to be my Marlin 1894 in 41, 44 or 45 mag.

 I even went so far as to but a handy specifically for a good sized piece. (500S&W) But for years and tears I have had my "rain" rifles. Levers, pumps and SS with open sites and knock down power. Quick handling is a huge attribute as well.

CW

[jjas]

Petemi

I guess I omitted the real and obvious reason for leaving the pistol calibers at home.  And, that is distance.  I've shot deer here at home from ten yards to 310 yards, and I'm never sure where they'll show up.  I'd hate to be in a tree stand picking my nose and watching a 10 or 12 point cruise by at 300, holding my .357.  That is why they stay home.  Yes, they will and do kill lots of deer, but it is the same reason my .30-30 stays home.  If it is rainy, foggy, snowing with limited visability, the .30-30 and the .357 get a day in the field.  I hate seeing something at distance I can't hit.

For many of us, the .44 magnum is one of our best options.  I live in Indiana and our big choices are slug guns, muzzleloaders, handguns or pistol cartridge rifles (pcr) for deer hunting.

So I'll gladly accept the fact that 100-125 yards is the max range I'll be able to shoot.  I've been living with limited range shooting for as long as I've been deer hunting.

Will some people try to push the envelope?  Sure, but they'd try to push the envelope whether they were shooting a slug gun, muzzleloader, pcr or a .270.  Unfortunately, stupidity knows no bounds.

Have a good day,

Jim

[billy_56081]

The 44 mag should work great. Heck millions of animals were killed with the old 44-40. The 44 mag just pushes a very slighly larger diamiter much faster. Well unless you believe that the deer are tougher now and need some kinda super lighning super magnum.

[GoodOlBoy]

stick within 75 - 100 yards and it is a great round.  I would stick to 75 yards or less with anything bu a lead round nose, semijacketed soft point etc (IE I wouldn't use hollowpoints at 100 yards)  Same thing with a 357.  I still use a 45 colt saddlegun for heavy brush with a custom loaded 250gr RNFP lasercast running at around 1200+ fps from the muzzle.  Your 44 should do fine.

GoodOlBoy

[BBF]

I am just waiting to get the 310 gr LEE mold for the 44 Rem. If I can get a good load worked up I may just use that as my standby in the Ruger carbine for this years deer season.

[dpe.ahoy]

45-70, If you are talking about the 44 auto Ruger, they always recommend using a jacketed bullet.  For the old Deerfields anyway.  Not sure about the new ones or the levers.  Maybe I shouldn't have opened my mouth .  Anyway, ya might want to check on it.  DP

[cwlongshot]

stick within 75 - 100 yards and it is a great round.  I would stick to 75 yards or less with anything bu a lead round nose, semi jacketed soft point etc (IE I wouldn't use hollow points at 100 yards)  Same thing with a 357.  I still use a 45 colt saddle-gun for heavy brush with a custom loaded 250gr RNFP laser-cast running at around 1200+ fps from the muzzle.  Your 44 should do fine.

GoodOlBoy

 Just a side note.
  If your just punching paper RN bullets are grand. But if you want to hunt with lead bullets you are missing the boat not looking into a design with a large meplat. ( http://www.garrettcartridges.com/071701.asp ) I look at RN lead bullets for big game as ALMOST as bad as using FMJ's for hunting. At the very least a Keith style bullet/semi wad-cutter. My personal preference is the LBT style bullet.

IIHO, Bullets of at least .410 can get away with out expanding as long as the large meplat profile bullet is utilized. If you have a jacked bullet theology, or mentality, your thinking you need to have expansion. With a lead bullet that means using soft lead bullets, softer bullets cannot be driven to high enough velocities to get adequate performance.
Enter the gas checked bullet. Now you can utilize a softer bullet that is likely to expand with out the down falls. Trouble is as the bullet expands, penetration suffers as the pistol calibers lack the "horse power" to drive the expanding bullet deep enough to give reliable humane performance.
Yet another option, and the one I subscribe to, is you load up some hard cast, LBT profile bullets. Put those bullets in the right spots on your game and you will be rewarded with excellent wound channels, deep penetration and a bunch of "pole axed" game! Large diameter LBT profile bullets kill reliably and humanely. Something we all owe to the animals we harvest.

CW

[GoodOlBoy]

The large metplat theory is a good one.  But another theory is being able to hit what you aim at.  I tried around 14 varieties of bullets in my saddle gun (including keith bullets from several companies) and finally HAD to go with the lasercast 250 grain RNFP.  Why?  At 50 yards the 250 grain RNFPs give me a 2" or less group standing with iron sights.  The CLOSEST I had to that was a 270 grain Keith with a 8" group that leaded the heck out of my barrel.  So it was back to the lasercast bullets.  By the way the last deer shot with my load dropped like he had been slegehammered.   The bullet penetrated the vitals behind and slightly down the left front shoulder and exited in front of the right fton shoulder (wuartering away shot at around 53 yards after I stepped it off) I have seen the same exact configuration from a hunting buddy of mine drop a 432lb feral hog like he had been hit with a sledgehammer.  And yes it exited the hog as we... . . .  Surprising isn't it that a bullet without a huge metplat or expansion will do that?  Not really.  Solid lead round nose bullets took tons of game and men all over the world for alot of years before the invent of the flat point, hollowpoint, plastic point, etc.  One of my handloads (one round out of 50 round box I made as a present to an ex-brother in law) took a elk at 68 yards in montana.  The elk traveled less than 40 yards before hitting the dirt.  He was shot by a man who typically bowhunts for elk.

You don't need a huge metplat if you choose your shot placement carefully.  Does it make it easier?  Yes.  But also bear in mind that per stats dating back to the early 1900s more deer have been taken in Texas with a rimfire 22 (which is illegal) than any other round (Over the years the 30-30 has come close), and 99% of them with a single shot.  Today it is mostly poachers doing this, in decades past it was poor people hunting for food.  A dime box of 22s would provide alot of meat if you used a single shot.  And they did.

And by the way for the traditional hunters what is the metplat on a 40-54 caliber round lead ball from a traditional muzzleloader?  Man if the mountain men had only known about the secrets of hollowpoints and wadcutters they might have been able to live off of their rifles. . . .

Are large metplats a good idea?  You bet your butt they are.  But they are NOT a substitute for accurate shooting, and if my groups increase by 400% by going to a large metplat bullet then you can bet I woun't be loading them.

By the way the only round that came CLOSE to the accuracy of my 250 gr RNFP from my rifle was a 300 grain hornady XTP mag.  It only added about 1/4" to the overall grouping.  The problem is I hunt in an area with ALOT of feral hogs and a hollowpoint on a 400-700lb feral hog just ticks him off real REAL bad.

GoodOlBoy

[quickdtoo]

The lead round nose theory only works if the lead is soft enough to expand some on soft tissue, a round ball is soft lead and does excellent on a boiler room shots on deer and elk within appropriate range, a .50 cal ball will expand to about double the original size just going thru the lungs, that's why they work so well. 

Tim

[GoodOlBoy]

I understand we are talking about the difference between soft (BH of about 5) lead and hard cast (BH of about 15 on lasercast) lead.  However a 44 caliber hole through the heart lungs and liver, or into the brain pan will kill as fast and often faster than a shot that was six inches back and low but mushroomed well.  One of the reasons the hard cast bullets work so well on large feral hogs is that it DOESN'T expand alot.  We are talking about the difference in expansion, and penetration, or perhaps more acurately penetration and system shock.  Believe me I would have NO problem using a large metplat bullet (I sent alot of money to cast performance, larser cast, midwayusa, cabelas, and local shops trying to find the best bullet for my rifle) IF it was as accurate in MY rifle as the laser cast.  My father preferred the 270 grain keiths (don't remember where we got them now) in his marlin because it was alot more accurate in it than in my stainless rossi old model 92 (no safety on the bolt).  My rossi absolutely hated them for some reason.  The laser cast was a great round in my rossi, a good round in my 5.5" barreled new model blackhawk, and worked well in my father's marlin and aniversery model blackhawk.

btw I was not trying to be insulting with my last post, just posting my experience.

Anyway back to topic if you want a happy-medium hunting round a semijacketed softpoint works well for some folks.
Edited to add: Just checked and remington makes a 240gr softpoint highspeed round for the 44 mag.


GoodOlBoy

[teddy12b]

I’ve never read anything about Whelen, probably never will.  I’m sure he was a great guy, but the only thing I’ve ever read regarding 1000ft pounds of energy is in the Colorado regs that require it for hunting elk.  Now I’ve never hunted elk, but seeing as they are usually at least 3 times bigger than a deer I think you’d be safe ignoring the 1000 pounds of energy rule for deer.

Try this, setup a target with some weight to it at whatever distance you’re curious about and shoot it.  If it doesn’t have any effect, then you have your answer.  If it knocks the heck out of the target you are also have your answer.  I’ve shot hanging steel targets at 100 yards with my puma 20” 44 mag and it really rocks the targets.  I’m confident that a 44 mag with a good shot is about as good as it gets.  44mag pistols have killed so many animals over the years, I just have a hard time thinking it won’t do the trick in a rifle.

As far as the muzzleloader debate goes.  You all have very good points.  I have a muzzleloader so I can hunt a few more days on another weekend during the season.  I enjoy my muzzleloader, but I also enjoy hunting with my little lever action rifle too.  Part of the fun in hunting is the equipment.  I like the history & tradition of hunting with an open sighted lever action during the time it’s allowed.  When it’s time to put that away, I enjoy using my muzzleloader with pellet powder, a thumbhole stock, and a red dot scope.  It comes down to personal preference and how much enjoyment you get out of different hunting methods.

[GoodOlBoy]

Oh I absolutely agree on what you are saying about your 44 teddy12b.  With cowboy loads in a 45 colt I would never hunt anything larger than a whitetail.  With the handloads I use I am confident I can take larger game, the flip side is that the round is HIGHLY unsafe to use in anything other than my  rossi older model 92, a marlin levergun, a ruger anything, or a custom rig.  Would it work in a H&R probably they are heck for stout, but I worked up this load for MY guns.  If you put it in a original colt, a heritage arms, or a navy arms revolver you would need surgery after pulling the trigger to remove shrapnel.  When I shoot my heavy loads at swinging steel it sound like somebody is pounding on it with a 20lb sledge.

By the way the only reason I was willing to try this load in my rossi was because on my older model frame rossi used the SAME frame for their 454 casull as they did the 45 colt.  If it can handle that monster it can handle my loads, and did.

One of the beautiful things about having a gun in 44 is you can find shells EVERYWHERE for it for everything from cowboy plinking to hunting.  AND you can shoot 44 special in it as well as 44 mag.

Anyway have fun.

GoodOlBoy

[teddy12b]

I couldn’t agree more about your 45 colt.  They share the same problem as a 45/70 with having to be careful about what ammo you use in what gun.  I think that’s one of the main reasons the 44 mag is more popular than the 45 colt with newer hunters.  Most of the 45 colt ammo I see is lead nose cowboy stuff.  I like the 44 because the ammo is everywhere and it’s all probably more powerful than it has to be.  I may have to sell my puma 44 because of a kid on the way and I really hope I don’t have to, but a 44 mag rifle is just an awesome gun.  I almost took mine bear hunting last week with those hard cast loads.  I wish I would have now, but it’ll just have to wait till Indiana deer season now.

[GoodOlBoy]

Yeah 45 colt is pretty much a roll your own proposition when it comes to decent hunting loads unless you just love giving buffallo bore money.  But the flip side is the lawsuits if they did sell suped up stuff to every other bugger with a cheap 45 out there would be staggering.  I love my 45s but if I had it to do over with it is entirely possible they would have been 44s.

GoodOlBoy

[jy951]

I guess I omitted the real and obvious reason for leaving the pistol calibers at home.  And, that is distance.  I've shot deer here at home from ten yards to 310 yards, and I'm never sure where they'll show up.  I'd hate to be in a tree stand picking my nose and watching a 10 or 12 point cruise by at 300, holding my .357.  That is why they stay home.  Yes, they will and do kill lots of deer, but it is the same reason my .30-30 stays home.  If it is rainy, foggy, snowing with limited visability, the .30-30 and the .357 get a day in the field.  I hate seeing something at distance I can't hit.

petemi:

the options in IN are shotgun/slug, muzzleloader, bow&arrow, certain handguns.  There is no high-powered rifle option.  so if you hunted in IN, what would you choose?  stay at home?

[quickdtoo]

Indiana regs allow certain pistol chamberings in rifles, granted they aren't what you'd consider long range chamberings, but there's nothing low powered about the 500S&W which is legal. I have read on another forum a .357" wildcat based on the 300WSM case cut down, the owner got a letter from the IN DNR approving it, so the list isn't limited to traditional chamberings, just has to meet the case length and caliber requirements.

Tim

http://www.state.in.us/dnr/files/fw-Deer_Hunting_Equipment.pdf

Rifles with pistol cartridges

Rifles must fire a cartridge with a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches.
 These rifle cartridges can be used only during the deer firearms season.
Some cartridges that are legal include the following:

.357 Magnum
.38-40 Winchester
.41 Magnum
.41 Special
.44 Magnum
.44 Special
.44-40 Winchester
.45 Colt
.454 Casull
.458 SOCOM
.480 Ruger
.475 Linebaugh
.50 Action Express
.500 S&W


 

[jy951]

err, yeah, i left that important pistol caliber rifle part out. oops.

[revbc]

I don't have the reloading knowledge that many on this forum have, but...........  I have hunted whitetails in LA for over 35 years with at least 25 of those using a 44mag 1894 Marlin.  I have shot factory loads and reloads from a friend.  With the reloads, I would not hesitate to drop the hammer on one out to 150 yrds.  Never shot the new hornady ammo, but with regular factory loads 100-120 yds was my max.  It just dropped to much after that.  I have killed many, many deer with this rifle caliber.  I missed a few, but one thing I can say, if I drew blood I brought meat home!

Bobby

[BBF]

DP:
 My carbine is the lever model, I got the mold yesterday and will fire up the pot today. Judging by the meplat of that bullet it should be devastating.

[petemi]

the options in IN are shotgun/slug, muzzleloader, bow&arrow, certain handguns.  There is no high-powered rifle option.  so if you hunted in IN, what would you choose?  stay at home?
[/quote]

I believe the original question had nothing to do with Indiana.  Where I live I don't have to worry about what load I can use.  When they get to that point, I'll sell out and go somewhere where freedom still survives.  If you want to live cheek to jowl with your neighbors and make the big bucks, you have to give up something.

[kevinsmith5]

Round ball muzzleloaders have killed a lot of deer and you'd have to load them to the breech burst to get a 1000 FPe beyond 25 yds.  A 50 RB only comes in at about 170 gr in pure lead.

I wonder what the 1000 fpe crowd thinks it takes to drop a buffalo?  2000? 2500?  BP loads in a 45/70 won't touch that and I seem to recal they may have been known to kill a buffalo or two....

[LaOtto222]

You are correct about the original question not being about Indiana. It was about the 44 Mag's effectiveness on deer. It got around to Indiana because of their regulations - Not allowing bottle necked cases to be used for deer hunting in a rifle making the 44 Mag a viable choice. I am not sure about your comment concerning living cheek to jowl and not having freedom??? I am not sure about the reasoning behind Indiana's DNR decision not to allow "high powered" rifles. I do know they did not have a deer hunting season at all at one time (before 1964) mainly because there were not enough deer to hunt. When they opened it up to hunters were allowed to hunt with slugs of 20 gauge or bigger. I am not sure why they only allowed a slug gun to be used. It maybe because of high population, but I suspect they wanted to limit the range so the new hunters would not be wounding a bunch of deer. The 20 gauge or 12 gauge does put deer down with authority. Hunters were thrilled to have the opportunity to go deer hunting, no matter the restrictions. That was before the saboted slugs and rifled barrels, I am talking smooth bores and a solid chunk of lead that did not spin or spun very little. They designed those slugs weight forward with skirts to make them fly as straight as possible. Through pressure of different groups the IDNR let muzzle loader, handgun, and archery hunters in the door. The theory of being too close and being restricted to low powered guns goes out the window when you are speaking of hand gun hunting. Single shot handguns are allowed and they have to be of .243 caliber or bigger. A 15" 243 Win will generate around 3000 fps and has a fairly long range. A 7mm-08 in a 15" barrel gets around 2700 fps with 120 grain bullets, still legal. So why not a 7mm-08 in a rifle? who knows. but if living cheek to jowl had any thing to do with it, it does not make sense that Handguns with 300 yard ranges would be allowed. I live in Indiana and I do not feel my freedoms have been restricted any more than someone that lives in Michigan, I can still shoot a 22-250, 243, or a 30-06 if I feel like it at groundhogs, just not deer. Why not deer too, I do not know. Will a 44 mag kill a deer? It most certainly will, just limit your distance and put it where it counts, down they go. It is simply choices. IF a deer is seen at a distance it will just have to be passed up, there are lots of deer here now and another one will come along that is closer or move your stand closer to the action, we just have to use some restraint and pick our shots. I think if you did a survey 90% of the deer shot here are with in 75 yards. All most 100% of the deer are shot from tree stands (think woods and along fence rows) If you move the range out to 100 yards you will probably catch another 7% or 8 %. Not very many deer are shot beyond 100 yards.   

[rem700-3]

I hunt a lot with my 1894 in .357 and have killed a tractor trailer load of deer with it almost always dropping them in their tracks.  I use factory ammo 125 gr winchester silver tips. I have shot deer up to 125 +/- with bang-flop results pretty consistently I have not tried farther because if I am in a place that will offer longer shots I carry a different gun.  My point is dont sell the pistol cartridges short.  I have found most big gun  toters are attempting to compensate for poor marksmanship. Just know youre limits and the limits of the round you choose and match that to youre hunting situation

[mechanic]

I've dropped two deer with a 44 mag.  Both never moved out of their tracks.  One had the misfortune to walk within 25 feet and took a shot to the cranium.  (I hunt for meat not horns).  The other fellow played around at about 80 - 90 yards until I got tired of sitting still.  One shot to the neck facing away.  Never moved once down.  A 44 has plenty of stuff if you put it in the right place.

Ben

[kevinsmith5]

MY uncle shoots deer with his Ruger BlackHawk Single Six 357 every year and has for a longtime....drops them in there tracks at ranges up to 75 yards.  Of course he was a pistol marksmanship instructor for the Army Rangers for 15 years and has hit everyone of them I have ever seen dead behind the front shoulder right between the ribs.  He passes up shots that aren't doable and knows his limits (which are pretty high, he scares me).  Bottom line is where you put the bullet.  He has a Single Six in 22 Mag that I personlly think he could drop a deer with (he shoots squirrels in the head for god's sake), but he doesn't cause he's sure of the 357. Me, I couldn't drop a deer with it if I held it against their head.

[Mad Dog]

Well, I've lived in Indiana all my life.  Started hunting deer here in 1978.  I've killed them with bow, ML, and shotgun.  They passed the PCR season last year.  Kinda irked me that I couldn't use my .45-70, cause the case is too long.  Broke down and bought a Marlin 1894, .44 mag last week.  I think I'm gonna use the LE ammo, this year for deer, because it's so accurate in the little gun.  However, I haven't gotten rid of my ole Rem. 870 slug gun, yet.  Hittem right they go down.  Hittem wrong and go chase them over hill and dale.  BTW, I have never taken a deer here at home, with a gun, out of a treestand.  Only used tree stands when bowhunting, and have taken a couple off the ground.  I have shot a coupla wild hos with a .44 mag, in years past, and have no doubt about the .44 out to 125/150 yds.

Mad Dog

[cwlongshot]

I hunt a lot with my 1894 in .357 and have killed a tractor trailer load of deer with it almost always dropping them in their tracks.  I use factory ammo 125 gr winchester silver tips. I have shot deer up to 125 +/- with bang-flop results pretty consistently I have not tried farther because if I am in a place that will offer longer shots I carry a different gun.  My point is dont sell the pistol cartridges short.  I have found most big gun  toters are attempting to compensate for poor marksmanship. Just know youre limits and the limits of the round you choose and match that to youre hunting situation

 Likely a miss type, but I hope your using 357's as the 357 Silvertip is a 145gr load and the 38spl uses a 110 or +P38 125gr.

CW

[GoodOlBoy]

Why?  I inherited a family 32-20 levergun years ago.  It sends a 100 grain lead round nose down range at around 1200 fps.  My great grandfather killed more deer than a train could haul with it, and pretty much everybody else in the family has taken a few with that old winchester too.

CW I know you know your stuff buddy, but I think you have let some of the hype of newer/faster/better advertising get to you.  No offense ment.  There are alot of good OLD SLOOOWWWWWW calibers out there that have taken tons of deer.  It takes skill.  Yes it does.  But it can still be done.  Personally I have more respect for a guy with his 30-30, 357, 32-20 taking deer with precise shots at 75-whatever than I do some guy in a stand with a 300RUM blasting away at them from the same distance and making very poor shot placement.

I do agree I would be using the 357s not the 38s, but it IS doable with the 38s IMHO.

GoodOlBoy

[cwlongshot]

Why?  I inherited a family 32-20 levergun years ago.  It sends a 100 grain lead round nose down range at around 1200 fps.  My great grandfather killed more deer than a train could haul with it, and pretty much everybody else in the family has taken a few with that old winchester too.

CW I know you know your stuff buddy, but I think you have let some of the hype of newer/faster/better advertising get to you.  No offense ment.  There are alot of good OLD SLOOOWWWWWW calibers out there that have taken tons of deer.  It takes skill.  Yes it does.  But it can still be done.  Personally I have more respect for a guy with his 30-30, 357, 32-20 taking deer with precise shots at 75-whatever than I do some guy in a stand with a 300RUM blasting away at them from the same distance and making very poor shot placement.

I do agree I would be using the 357s not the 38s, but it IS doable with the 38s IMHO.

GoodOlBoy

 Dude,
 I could kill any deer that ever existed with a ball peen hammer. Using your reasoning, That might make it the best deer killer ever!

 Of coarse its "doable" No argument there. We all have an OBLIGATION, to humanely harvest any and all game we hunt. Now, before you go off on a tangent on the 22mag or 22Hornet and all the game that has killed. I just want to say, the ability to do something doesn't make it the appropriate, acceptable or ethical. Ever her the term, "USE ENOUGH GUN"? 

 CW

Addendum:
  I am a lover of the old calibers as well. Frankly I have more of them than the new junk. I have never been of the Roy Weatherby school of ballistics. MUSH prefer the power of the lumbering large slug. (Preferably with a large, broad flat front. )