Big Russian flotilla led by Admiral Kuznetsov carrier heads for Syrian port

[powderman]

I've asked several people at work and NOBODY has even heard of this latest deqal with russia, I believe the whole thing is liberal crap, seems like the news service would be all over this if it were true.  . POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

  Hi Guys; I'm back from a 3 day stint at an historical blacksmith shop. Large groups of enthusiastic observers...offering much compliments and applause..

   Now, back to the debate;
      I will readily say that I believe the CIA  used some of the Islamofacists back in the early 80s to battle the Soviet forces invading Afghanistan. The CIA did a credible job;
  halting the invasion without shedding much American blood. The guerilla war against the Soviets..it cost the Bear greatly..and in the long run, brought about the down-
  fall and dismemberment of the Soviet Union. Soon the Iron Curtain came down, along with the Berlin wall.
   Back then, the Islamofacists were called the "Mujahideen"..The Al Queda..meaning literally, "the base" was taken from their practice of using the world wide web as "the
  base" of their organization. Since the world wide web was not even in existence at that time..ergo; the CIA could not possibly been dealing with "the base" at that time.
           The Islamofacists simply hate the west..even the Russian west, and their fanatical aim is to convert or destroy all that is not Islam. Their slogan, " the enemy of my
    enemy..is my friend", has been employed by them for centuries.
        Today, we are the ones who are the target of the leaders of nations like Russia and Iran...who have been using the Islamofacists since the violent overthrow of the
    Shah of Iran and the well deserved dissolution of the Soviet Empire. Since the terrorists have no loyalty other than Islam, obviously, immediately after the foregoing two
  events, the Islamofacists sided with and accepted arms from the Russian successor to the KGB (Vlad's old outfit). The Russians and the pan-Islam forces are trying to do
   to us what was done to the Soviet Empire.  You don't see the terrorists using M-16s and our RPGs or grenade launchers. One other fly in their ointment..the US led
  coalition has not been beaten by the terrorists !

   The use of third party "cat's paws" by espionage and counter-espionage units is nothing new..the CIA, Mossad, the KGB and it's successor all do it ! Don't forget, it was just
   such a game that finally brought down the 300 Spartans, back nearly 3,000 years ago, and Benedict Arnold..less than 300 years ago.Yes, the CIA might have used the Islamic
    nut-cases for a given job 25 years ago, and likely the Russian & Iranian honchos are doing so now ! No surprise there ! The KGB, Mossad and even the CIA are not expected
   to be the same as Sunday School teachers...It's a violent, dirty world out there..

   Sorry guys, but the way I read it..all this complaining about how bad the CIA and the USA are, is just another way for the "Hate America First" crowd to vent their spleen
   under the guise of "enlightened research"..
                 
                                Yes, it has cost us some..but not like it has cost the Soviets.

[powderman]

IRONGLOW. Good post, and welcome back.
tg. You'd be one of the last people to recognize a Christian point of view, and yes, you are the leader of the hate America crowd here. Thanks for reminding me that satan is still on the job.
I ask again, has anybody seen this story anywhere else??? No tv, no paper, no other boards, NUTTIN. POWDERMAN.   

[ironglow]

  TM;

    Your claim somehow that my view is not a "Christian" view is a bit puzzling..first you tell us that we as Christians have no right to judge the actions of Muslims..
  yet you who seemingly claim not to be an orthodox Christian..attempt to judge our actions & opinions...
  Sometimes I wonder but what Billy may be right on track ! I take the translation for Al Queda or "the base" as most of our news media have read and translated
  it ...but still you say the translation was faulty. Where do you get your more perfect translation from 

  Yes; Brezinski was a disaster...just one of Carter's many..It hardly seems likely that Soviet Union would at that time when they were expanding, be worried about
     a pipeline in their Republic of Georgia, one of THEIR republics..

   As far as the hate America crowd..there are bloggers, professors, politicians, clergy (e.g. Rev. Wright, Farrakhan etc) that are teaching/preaching hate America   
  poison pill very day;...some people swallow the pill..others , spit it out !

[Dee]

The Syrian Port of Tartus, seems to be, either turned over to, or loaned, or leased to Russia, as a nuclear missile base, and station for missile carrying Russian subs, and ships.
If you cannot locate information on it, you are not looking. It is all over the Internet, from dozens of sources. That it is not on our media, is not at all surprising.
This news makes the U.S. look rather bad, due to the Russians try to one up us on our insistence of a missile defense base in Poland. Israel is very worried about it.

[BBF]

The Russkis have spy satelites as well. If they would detect any signs that Israel is "fixin" to launch any missiles that whole part of the desert would be turned into glass IMO

[ironglow]

  TM..45/70;
  Don't make the same mistake of underestimating Israel..as your buddies , the Muslim countries did...
   They got a serious whoopin'.

[powderman]

DEE. Thanks. You're right, I wasn't looking real hard but never saw a thing on it on the other boards I visit.
tm. Yep, true. Islam the tree, the fruits are murder, death, beheadings, treachery and lies. True enough. POWDERMAN. 

[Dee]

The Syrian Port of Tartus, seems to be, either turned over to, or loaned, or leased to Russia, as a nuclear missile base, and station for missile carrying Russian subs, and ships.
If you cannot locate information on it, you are not looking. It is all over the Internet, from dozens of sources. That it is not on our media, is not at all surprising.
This news makes the U.S. look rather bad, due to the Russians try to one up us on our insistence of a missile defense base in Poland. Israel is very worried about it.

.
Yep,,,it is easily found.... Dee...you think the Russikies now got a pack with the Syrian-Iranians.....attack Iran and you get attacked? And do you think the Russians have the capability of immediately extinquishing any total Israeli "SAMSON Plan" before the issy's can get off an attack on us?  My understanding is that the SAMSON Plan means attacking us and all of mankind for that matter since they believe mankind as per providence, can't exist without the jews as the leader/kings anyway.  Not a flame question...just wondering what you think.

...TM7

I think the Russians are doing to us precisely what we did to them when they occupied Afghanistan. We broke them financially by feeding the Taliban (our then buddies) stinger missiles and all the AK ammo they could shoot at the then Soviet Union.
An all out nuclear war with us is not in Russia's best interest as it would be a no win for either side. HOWEVER, a continued plan of escalation with this so called "war on terror" will eventually spread us so thin, it will not only break us financially (which it really already has) but, will also LOWER OUR STANDING AS A SUPER POWER.
As far as my opinion of Israel, I do not believe there is a country in existence that can whip them. I also believe that if we as a nation turn our back on Israel, that God will turn His back on the US, if he hasn't already.
Folks here in the US are usually UNAWARE, that folks like Saddam Hussein, and Manual Noriega where trained by the CIA, in a wonderful little school called "THE SCHOOL OF AMERICAS" located at Ft. Benning, Ga.
They were trained by us to do exactly what they did, which was to take over their perspective countries and set up a dictatorship. AND THEY DID. Their error was to realize that they could make more money doing business with Russia and China, which they did. That and only that, is the reason they were taken out. There are a dozen countries or more scattered throughout the world, that are no better nor worse than these two were.
I suppose we agree some what on some issues for obviously different reasons, HOWEVER, we are light years apart on Israel.

[ironglow]

IG.... I just added a little more what al Quaeda means then the colloquial ... it has a little more meaning from your simplification...meaning something indivisible.

Your hate America stigma is just the way you attempt to put a handle on that your lunacy doesn't approve....it really is a cheap and useless attempt to quell discussion and truth under an emotional mantle of political BS. Further indicative of how far you have wandered from the path.

As for your other faith based pogroms.... all phariseic zio hogwash, not remotely Christian, and designed to promote endless conflict, slavery, ethnic cleansing, and any number of HELL's manifestations on mankind. Give it up.

"Faith is atheisim, God is intelligence and Truth". You see you make it--All reversed Mr. Blacksmith.  Honor God with a little truth now and then and less rancor and confusion.

He had said: "BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM. DO MEN GATHER GRAPES FROM THE THORNS, OR FIGS FROM THE THISTLES? EVERY GOOD TREE WILL BEAR GOOD FRUIT AN D EVERY EVIL TREE WILL BEAR EVIL FRUIT....BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM. (Matthew 7:16-20).

...TM7

   TM;
  Exactly what I was talking about...your intimate knowledge of "the colloquial" Arabic ..

  The "hate America" stigma is not simply a stigma..read through the past posts of all who post here if you wish, and see just how often
  each poster praises our nation..as opposed to how often they criticize the USA..It seems that some NEVER give the USA any credit for
  the many, many good things it does...yet are continually condemning her.

  As for your next sentence; "faith based pogroms, pharasaic zio hogwash" , I dare say that plot-nut "newspeak" resonates with noone outside conspiracy circles.

  "faith is atheism, God is intelligence and truth"  I agree with the latter half, in fact God is ALL intelligence and truth..but seeing how we are discussing Christianity
  we should retain accuracy according to God's word..and in the first half of that statement you are missing the very HEART of Christianity..for without FAITH one is Dead..
  e.g. Hab 2:4 "...but the just shall LIVE by faith"...Hebrews Chapter 11 is all about how Biblical greats all were great BECAUSE of their great faith..the most quoted verse in the Bible ,
 without faith..would be of no effect John 3:16 " For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in Him shall not perish, but have
  everlasting life."
 
     Christianity is ALL ABOUT faith !
  If you want to talk Bahai, Hindu, Buddhism, Taoist, Shintoism, Wicca or atheism..knock yourself out ! I surely won't care and won't debate your theological stances, you're welcome
  to them....But when you take to attempting to use and abuse God's word, I am ready to correct..

  Your using Matt 7:16-20 out of context and totally misapplied..only serves to point up your inadequate Biblical familiarity.. 

[powderman]

tm. You would be the  expert on false prophets, thats your mohamed. You are pathetic. Israel will not be defeated by russia, or anyone else, God is on their side. As many times as the Godless ones have provoked a war and had their butts soundly whipped you'd think that they would finally realize that their mohamed just aint getting the job done for them. Anybody with ANY brain at all can look at a map of the area and see Israel surrounded by all the Godless nations, badly outnumbered in every way and not realize that they exist because of God has to be nuts. God has blessed America because we have blessed Israel. I pray that we always will, and rue the day that America turns her back on Gods chosen ones. You may now continue with your name calling, hate Bush, hate Israel, and hate America trash. POWDERMAN. 

[Dee]

IG.... I just added a little more what al Quaeda means then the colloquial ... it has a little more meaning from your simplification...meaning something indivisible.

Your hate America stigma is just the way you attempt to put a handle on that your lunacy doesn't approve....it really is a cheap and useless attempt to quell discussion and truth under an emotional mantle of political BS. Further indicative of how far you have wandered from the path.

As for your other faith based pogroms.... all phariseic zio hogwash, not remotely Christian, and designed to promote endless conflict, slavery, ethnic cleansing, and any number of HELL's manifestations on mankind. Give it up.

"Faith is atheisim, God is intelligence and Truth". You see you make it--All reversed Mr. Blacksmith.  Honor God with a little truth now and then and less rancor and confusion.

He had said: "BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM. DO MEN GATHER GRAPES FROM THE THORNS, OR FIGS FROM THE THISTLES? EVERY GOOD TREE WILL BEAR GOOD FRUIT AN D EVERY EVIL TREE WILL BEAR EVIL FRUIT....BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM. (Matthew 7:16-20).

...TM7

   TM;
  Exactly what I was talking about...your intimate knowledge of "the colloquial" Arabic ..

  The "hate America" stigma is not simply a stigma..read through the past posts of all who post here if you wish, and see just how often
  each poster praises our nation..as opposed to how often they criticize the USA..It seems that some NEVER give the USA any credit for
  the many, many good things it does...yet are continually condemning her.

  As for your next sentence; "faith based pogroms, pharasaic zio hogwash" , I dare say that plot-nut "newspeak" resonates with noone outside conspiracy circles.

  "faith is atheism, God is intelligence and truth"  I agree with the latter half, in fact God is ALL intelligence and truth..but seeing how we are discussing Christianity
  we should retain accuracy according to God's word..and in the first half of that statement you are missing the very HEART of Christianity..for without FAITH one is Dead..
  e.g. Hab 2:4 "...but the just shall LIVE by faith"...Hebrews Chapter 11 is all about how Biblical greats all were great BECAUSE of their great faith..the most quoted verse in the Bible ,
 without faith..would be of no effect John 3:16 " For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in Him shall not perish, but have
  everlasting life."
 
     Christianity is ALL ABOUT faith !
  If you want to talk Bahai, Hindu, Buddhism, Taoist, Shintoism, Wicca or atheism..knock yourself out ! I surely won't care and won't debate your theological stances, you're welcome
  to them....But when you take to attempting to use and abuse God's word, I am ready to correct..

  Your using Matt 7:16-20 out of context and totally misapplied..only serves to point up your inadequate Biblical familiarity.. 

.
   My understanding of Arabic is that the language has shades of meaning and often varies from strict prosaic meanings intentionally. Al Quaeda means "the base which is indivisible" not able to be reduced to anything,,,lowest common denominator....so intentionally has a meaning more then "the base" in a military sense which you are thinking of......that's all.

  You banty around hate America and conspiracy epitaths whenever it suits your temperment...which is when someone challenges your blind and surficial lunactic ideas on what America is to do, believe, and think...which is by your prescription to act and think like a zio neocon. People have seen thru this and more and more everyday. America has several problems right know which demand deep detailed analysis..NOT blind allegiance to the devil and HELL. Attempting to short circuit discussion with such cheap patented anti-dotes for reality doesn't cut it; and in fact adds to the inflamation of our countries soul. Repeating these kind of ad homenin attacks over and over ad nauseum, may have worked in Goebell's Germany, but it doesn't cut it here my friend.

   You miss my point on religion...faith in nonsense is crap. Faith is the suspension of intellect. Faith is often the pre-emptor of Truth by false prophets. Faith in corruption is aetheism.  Believe me..I have Faith, but not in the picture you paint.  My use of Mathew 7:16-20 is very appropriate.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW... I believe the Russkies can take out the Issys in 20 minutes with hardly a shot gotten off by them..  Issys are good at security and terrorism and apartheid but ususually try to get others to fight their big battles. They got trounced in their last foray into Lebanon by far lessor forces. They would have lost totally the Issy-Egyptian War for nuclear disarming them by arabs had not the Americans come to their swift aid...there wouldn't be any nukes in the ME had the Americans butted out. The problem is the issy nukes reaching the USA will be blamed on false enemies as 'faith' based belief systems kick into the propaganda mode.

..TM7

Well TM7, you asked my opinion on the above issues, and assured me that it wasn't a flame question. I answered it, courteously, and the way I view it without all the juvenile acronyms for the races, and so on. Then you came back with this low brow propaganda that has no real historical value, and although you did not address me in this post, you did address my "FAITH" and my BELIEF SYSTEM in Christ.
Discussion with you is of NO VALUE to me, and I for one will extract myself from any further conversation with you, as although even recently I have DEFENDED you when you were attacked, I have come to the conclusion, that your anti-American, anti-Christian, anti-Israeli dialogue deserves no defense, and you get what you deserve.
If the others want to continue to banter with you, thereby PROMOTING your cause, then so be it. Arguing with such, is nothing more than a weakness, in my opinion. I will chose to ignore you, in hopes that, like bad weather, you will eventually dissipate. Good day, in a most permanent way sir.

[powderman]

DEE. You are right, we should all ignore tm, but he is a daily reminder that satan is alive and well. Kinda hard to just ignore a lot of the moronic  crap he comes up with. POWDERMAN. 

[BBF]

No country can defeat Israel??!! They might think so themselves to their own peril. So far Israel has survived because of the unsparing aid in $ and military itelligence from the US. Even Hamas didn't cave in when they invated Lebanon and the Israelis bombed  civilian targets including the Airport. Real heroes those pilots considering that Lebanese troops such as they have were never involved  and what air defense did they have to worry about !! I watched the US Representative in the UN either sitting on his hands or not showing up day after day when Lebanon pleaded to have the UN act against the Israeli aggression.

Russia is not a Muslim country and they don't give a tinkers damn what the rest of the world thinks of them, Georgia is the most recent example. Did you notice that some Asian countries( China+) are worried about the situation there and think Russia was doing the right thing.
The only surprise I see in any Russia/Israel conflict would be coming from the Israelis when they get a major "whuppin" and neither of the Prez to be candidates will get into a serious hassle with the Russians. What?? Start tossing nukes at each other, I don't think so. The reason nukes exist is that NOBODY uses them.

[ironglow]

    45/70;

        Youi are partly correct, no country will soon defeat Israel...but for very different reasons than you cited ! 

[DalesCarpentry]

TM. This is a quote from you.America has several problems right know which demand deep detailed analysis..NOT blind allegiance to the devil and HELL. I have to ask do you really believe the USA is the Devil? I am a true American and believe we live ( although not perfect ) the greatest nation in the world and would not want to live anywhere else in the world. Are you really from this country? I have not looked at your profile to know for sure and even if I did it might not be listed where you are from. I really have not heard anything this un-American in my life!!!!!!!!!! I would like to offer you a one way first class ticket to Iran, Iraq oh hell you pick. You can join your brothers over there in the middle east. I kind of hope once they find out you are an American ( witch I have my doughts ) that they pin you down to the ground and saw through your neck with a Bowie Knife like we have seen so many times before. I would hope before you pass out from the pain and the loss of blood that America is a great country and you made a mistake. Dale

[ironglow]

 Pretty harsh..but I can understand Dale's frustration...
    I have been reserving such harsh talk, but there comes a time when I also am forced to face the obvious..
  Billy has been referring to TM as "true Muslim". That, I have been too reserved to say. However ...TM; knowing
   by our profession that we (Billy, Powderman, Dee, Wm and myself among others) believe in Christ as the Son
   of the living Christian God, he still accuses us of having "blind allegiance to the devil and Hell".
    I know that the primary ones who openly accuse all Christians as being "satanic", are the Muslim worshippers of a
   grossly false god..who is represented by a pedophile prophet. Armed with this readily available information,what must
   my obvious deduction concerning TM's "god" be ?
       So tm is your head rag trimmed in red or black..in other words, have you completed your Haj yet ?

  BTW: Since you do not  believe in the REAL God, you have no business trying to employ His words..

  P.S...Tramp around that big phony stone in Mecca all you want..it will do you no good ! 

[DalesCarpentry]

P.S...Tramp around that big phony stone in Mecca all you want..it will do you no good !  LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's funny. Dale

[powderman]

IRONGLOW. All true, but I hear from reliable sources that is a real rock not a phony rock, but a real one, It's hard and everything. Moohamud had it put there to sharpen their knives and swords on to better cut off Christian heads, and arms, and legs, etc. Now they mostly just worship it ya know, gives em something to talk about while they are trampling each other to death celebrating rummydum.  I heard that Israeli commandos had used it to crack walnuts on when the muzzies aren't useing it. Anyway, it's a REAL rock. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

  Powderman;
  Inside the facade built around it is a black stone (or possibly a black meterorite) maybe 8" to 10" across.
  Old muhammad ginned it up, built a box around it and blamed the whole thing on Abraham & Ishmael...

   Just do a web search for...< the Kaaba in Mecca  > you will find lots of info. TM apparently thinks we
  are stupid to have faith in Christ...well, faith in Christ beats having faith in a silly, black rock ! 

[powderman]

HEH. True IG, but it's all tm has. I'd rather have Jesus than tms rock anyday. Outer space huh?? That would sure explain a few things. Tm needs more tinfoil. POWDERMAN. 

[Dee]

TM. This is a quote from you.America has several problems right know which demand deep detailed analysis..NOT blind allegiance to the devil and HELL. I have to ask do you really believe the USA is the Devil? I am a true American and believe we live ( although not perfect ) the greatest nation in the world and would not want to live anywhere else in the world. Are you really from this country? I have not looked at your profile to know for sure and even if I did it might not be listed where you are from. I really have not heard anything this un-American in my life!!!!!!!!!! I would like to offer you a one way first class ticket to Iran, Iraq oh hell you pick. You can join your brothers over there in the middle east. I kind of hope once they find out you are an American ( witch I have my doughts ) that they pin you down to the ground and saw through your neck with a Bowie Knife like we have seen so many times before. I would hope before you pass out from the pain and the loss of blood that America is a great country and you made a mistake. Dale

.
Dale...
  Looks like you're now following the path of IG, PM, and Yerk-Off and other disingenous polemicists.  By quoting me in just part, and out of context, you have assumed the average technique of those guys and other goons in effort prove some mis-characterizing and their agendi of hate. Here is my whole quote:

You banty around hate America and conspiracy epitaths whenever it suits your temperment...which is when someone challenges your blind and surficial lunactic ideas on what America is to do, believe, and think...which is by your prescription to act and think like a zio neocon. People have seen thru this and more and more everyday. America has several problems right know which demand deep detailed analysis..NOT blind allegiance to the devil and HELL. Attempting to short circuit discussion with such cheap patented anti-dotes for reality doesn't cut it; and in fact adds to the inflamation of our countries soul. Repeating these kind of ad homenin attacks over and over ad nauseum, may have worked in Goebell's Germany, but it doesn't cut it here my friend.

That Mr.Carpenter (and Dee) was meant for IronG in response to his proto-typical rancor and ad hominens.....in that statement I am challenging "his" concept of Christianity, so much different than mine; and I maintain is exactly as I said it is... the raising of HELL on this good country and the planet under the mantle of some Holy calling...might work in Goebell's Germany, but shouldn't be happening here.  One only has to read IG's many post and his goon squad's to see this blind hate, perpetual war, constant claiming of godly purity, and the phony cosmology support manifesto.  This crap is not the teachings of Christ..it is far from it imo. It is the pogroms of a dyed-in-the-wool zio worshipper of the old testament war Gods of the Elohim, endless conflict; presented to you as the gospel of Christ. Far from it in my view and is in fact a dishonoring of Christ. THIS CHOSENIST AGENDA IS THE FORMULA FOR THE ZIO NEW WORLD ORDER and your slavery...nothing more and nothing less than the ending of this country by their cosmolgy and diktats. So don't lecture me on what is right and wrong for this country.  Moreover, the sad facts are that those controlling their beloved false Israel have NOT one drop of semitic or sephardic blood in them....not one drop! I suggest not falling for their cosmology of deceit if you love this country.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dee....sorry you feel that way. If you are of the same school as IG and trash goons, then we have different ideas on faith. My intentions are not to bash any religion, certainly not Chritianity. My concept is that Christianity is not meant to be wrangeled into some world war of perpetual conflict used by a NWO movement, and certainly doesn't mean I support IG's hate counterparts in Teheran or elsewhere with the same lunatic ideas as his and posing as the word of God.

OK, NOW I AM MORE CLEAR ON WHAT YOUR REFERENCE TO THE DEVIL AND HELL ARE. I AGREE THAT WE HAVE A PRE-EMPTIVE STRIKE GOVERNMENT, THAT HAS IN ESSENCE GONE WILD. I AGREE THAT SHOULD WE BE ABOUT TO BE ATTACKED, THEN WE SHOULD HIT FIRST, HOWEVER, IRAQ WAS NOT ABOUT TO STRIKE. AL QUEDA WAS NOT ACTIVE IN IRAQ DURING HUSSIENS REIGN, AS HE AND THEY WERE ENEMIES. THEY ARE THERE NOW, BECAUSE WE ARE THERE. AFGANSITAN IS A DIFFERENT STORY, HOWEVER, I BELEIVE AFTER WE BOMBED THE TERROIST TRAINING CAMPS INTO OBLIVION WE SHOULD HAVE LEFT.
THE TALIBAN WAS IN POWER, BECAUSE WE PUT THEM IN POWER, WHEN THEY WERE FIGHTING THE SOVIET UNION. OUR NATION BUILDING MINDSET, HAS MADE US MANY ENEMIES, AND IT WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. IT NEEDS TO STOP, AS IT IS NOT ONLY COUNTER PRODUCTIVE, WE CAN NO LONGER AFFORD IT ECONOMICALLY. EVERYONE IN THE WORLD DOES NOT WANT WHAT WE HAVE, AND WE NEED TO REALIZE IT, AND STOP PUSHING IT ON THEM.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

45-70.....Yes, the recent history shows that Israel is not militarily invincible unless backed by the USA...whether the Russkies will prove this depends if the nutcases and dumbass neocons that hyjacked and run this country attack Iran. They have squandered the work of Reagan and violated several of his agreements /glasnost with the Russians (no missiles, no NATO recruiting, no encirclement,etc.). They are quick to capitalize on the term Russian Aggression...which I see Ms. Palin is getting a coaching in. Time will tell as the Russians just might think in the end Israel will get the same support as Georgia if push comes to shove. The sad fact is that the issys have a Samson Option, which IG pointed out somewhere, and is nothing less than psychopathy; so if the russians do decide to take out the issys we can only hope they take out the issy nukes pointed at us first to keep us out of the melee.

...TM7

[Dee]

I don't judge a man's relationship with Christ, but I am Biblically to judge obvious sin. There are points that ironglow and I do not agree on, but with that said, I do recognize the Muzlim threat, and it's teachings in relationship to both Christianity, and the non-Muslim. These teachings can be denied and down played, but to ones own peril.

[ironglow]

  I am not nearly as militant as I am perceived by TM . I do believe that when our troops are in active combat with a diabolical enemy
  I will ALWAYS want our troops to WIN in every encounter..which they almost invariably do when this cowardly enemy mistakenly tries
  a face-to-face.
   Before 9/11, if anyone asked me if we should attack the Islamofacists, I would have counseled caution..but then, the Islamo-nuts
  attacked us.
  I know TM does not believe that the fanatical Muslims did attack the WTC..but I am more analytical than that ! The Islamo-nuts
  have a record of thousands of "stupidcide" attacks before 9/11 and thousands since. Beside the investigative hearings and the clear
  impossibility of maintaining such a grand conspiracy..we have the boasts by the terrorist leaders themselves.
     Like Teddy Roosevelt, I believe that our nation should "speak softly..but carry a big stick" ! Then, if some nutsy group such as Al
  Queda attacks us, I would follow the example of Joshua of old..we should bring that big stick down hard and heavy, even to the point
  of obliterating such evil.

  Unlike many here, I believe that I am "up to speed' by simply not falling for the antiquated idea that we are involved in a struggle with
  an enemy that is confined to old national boundaries. The enemy we now face doesn't recognize national boundaries, since they are
   INTERnational terrorists. We have to seek them out and destroy their evil nests wherever they establish them.
  This is no easy task, since we are dealing with other nations and their soverignty.

   One thing you will NEVER see me do, is back those that would try to pull support for our troops, try to diminish the successes of our
   troops or attempt to injure the morale of our fighting men & women...as much of the media and some in Congress have done !

        Succinctly: We should avoid starting a war, but when the enemy brings it to us (as on 9/11)..we should bring the hammer down
  and bring it down HARD ! 
    TM; nothing extra-Biblical about that, because our Bible unlike the Koran, doesn't call upon us to go to all other people and do
  the "convert or kill" thing..

[Dee]

ironglow, I do not consider you radical in the terms of you patriotism. I would however say, that your next to last statement of this last post of yours is contridictal.

QUOTE:  Succinctly: We should avoid starting a war, but when the enemy brings it to us (as on 9/11)..we should bring the hammer down and bring it down HARD  !

We did "start a war" with a sovereign country that had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 911. That country is Iraq. We overthrew a country, because he (Hussein) would not comply with our demands of "compliance". Nothing more, nothing less.
I support the troops, I support taking out the training camps in Afghanistan. But, I do not support invading countries that do not agree with us, and pose no threat. China and Russia, are FAR MORE threatening than Iraq could have ever been.
NO MAN! Not Bush, not Obama, not McCain, NOT ANY MAN, should be able to declare war on a country without Congressional APPROVAL. Bush did just that. And the rest is history.

[ironglow]

  Dee;
  I know you back the troops to the utmost..we both have a dog in this fight ! As I explained in  my post, I don't look at the worldwide
  terrorist network as being confined to the old, national boundary lines.
  Was Pres Bush totally correct in attacking Iraq ? debatable in my mind !  If you recall though, congress did give the president permission
   to use as much force as "needed"...and Saddam DID violate many of the things he agreed to with the documents signed in that
  tent in the desert..
  Remember also, all the major intelligence services said that Iraq had WMD and Bill Clinton along with many others agreed. When Saddam
   refused the nuclear inspection team admittance to certain nuclear sites they were by agreement, supposed to be given unhindered
 access to..what is one to believe ?
  Many of the former Iraqi honchos have come out with info that says yes, Saddam did have WMD.

  The statement that if the enemy does hit us , we should hit them back HARD..makes sense to me. If we had hit Saddam HARD enough
  the first time..we may not have needed a return visit !

[Dee]

One must look at why we hit him in the first place ironglow. We went in and done ANOTHER police action, for an Arab country that NEVER PAYS US BACK THE MONEY WE SPEND "PROTECTING THEM".
We don't get a thin dime of a break in oil prices even though we are going in the s#$ter economically DEFENDING THEM from their enemies. They WILL NOT support us, and many of the rich sheiks we defend support terrorist groups financially.
The 911 attackers were financed by Saudi sheiks WE PROTECT.
Our foreign policies on such, are nonsensical, and benefit no one but, the oil companies, and the arabs. We cannot BLINDLY defend bad governmental practices.
Hussien was no worse than Iran, Seria, and so on that HAVE THREATENED US, and PUBLISH THEIR NUCLEAR accomplishments.

[ironglow]

  Gulf war 1 was over the free-flow of oil..no doubt about it. This war was brought on by the liberals that have been fighting our efforts
  to become energy independent, for the last 30 years or more.  ..No drill, no new refineries, no nuclear, no wind power, no coal..
  When it looked like Saddam took  Kuwait, and he could cut off the straights of Hormuz..and starve the free world out of the lifeblood (oil)
   of their economies...stopping him was almost a self-defense action.
  In Gulf 2, The prez could not have gone into Iraq without the congress' permission. He got it, and convinced that they were acquiring ,
  or had never gotten rid of their cache of WMD he moved. The congress was right with him ..until they found they could make political
   hay by defying the Prez and endangering out troops with a threatened "cut off of funds".
   They threatened cut off of funds..this heartened the terrorists and helped to get more American troops killed..but I guess the libs figured
   the possible political gains were well worth a few troops dying..

  If they had a lick of common sense..they KNEW it had to happen as soon as they threatened to "cut and run"..

  Again, forget old national boundaries in this asymetrical terrorist war.

[Dee]

ironglow, Bush # 1 was head of the CIA when Saddam went to the "School of the Americas" in Ft. Benning, Ga. Bush HELPED HIM become dictator of Iraq. Saddam just got independent and greedy and started doing business with China and Russia making the big bucks.
Kuwait was "angle drilling" on the Kuwait Iraq border siphoning Iraqi oil out and EVERYONE knows it. Bush# 1 in a round about way gave Saddam permission to invade Kuwait, by stating that the U.S. had no interest in their affairs. Saddam actually discussed the matter with Bush# 1. It is all available thru the Freedom of Info Act. It was only after the U.N. got in the mix that the U.S. got indignant.
The fact remains that Kuwait, and Saudi Arabian sheiks financed the 911 terrorists, and have NEVER paid us one thin dime for the expense, and the American BLOOD, spent in defending THEM. They are watching our economy go in the crapper over oil prices and do not care.
One needs only to read the facts, rather than listening to the propaganda put out by the Republican regime.
Iraq was a mistake, and over 70% of the American people have WOKE UP, and realized that. You are in a minority that hold to the lie you were sold. I admire your loyalty to the Republican regime that is currently in power, but one must look, and accept the blatant facts. This no conspiracy, it is just a flat out distortion of the facts.
You as a Christian also know that democracy is a JOKE, and is HATED, in a Muslim country, and that after all the money and BLOOD has been spent, and the U.S. pulls out of Iraq, it will go back to what it was, and only the names of the leaders will be different. You CONTINUALLY banter with TM7 and others of the Muslim mentality, and MUST REALIZE THIS.

[Dee]

TM7, I don't believe I was directing any of my post at you at all. You are borrowing trouble. My statement was to ironglow, that he understands the Muslim mentality, yet supports our governments "foolish concept of democracy" in a Muslim theocracy. The two will not mix. Never has, and never will. If ironglow TRULY UNDERSTANDS this, he could not believe in such a fairy tale. There is not one democracy in ANY Muslim controlled country. The religion will not allow it. All ARE NOTE EQUAL in the Muslim religion.