Blaser rifles..who buys these guns?

[john keyes]

just curious, I see so many on gunbroker, the prices are so high...

 

[kyelkhunter3006]

Man, I'd love to have one.  But I'm such a tight a$$ anymore that I can't even decide on which .22 to buy.    LOL.  Besides, I only spent $350 on my boat I bought this year, and $2200 on my F150 4x4, and those were hard enought to "justify" to my wife.     I don't think that I could get the Blaser "justified" enough to tell her I spent $5000 on one.   

[Brithunter]

Not me although I have shot them and they are very nice accurate too  a friends grandson brought the R93 professional model in 7x57, he only sold it as the rifle he had always wanted and been looking for a Mannlicher GK came up for sale through one of his gradnfathers friends so the Blaser went to fund the purchase.

Funnily enough they are quite popular here in the UK especially with the deer stalking fraternity.

[Zachary]

If memory serves me correct, Blaser had some defect problems a while back.  I guess the same can be said for Remington, etc., but if I'm going to pay well over $2,000 for a gun, I dang near expect perfection!  Heck, for that amount of money, I could have a gun custom made for me.

Zachary[color+blue]

[Brithunter]

Just goes to show the priece expectations and differences in pricing here and in the US. A bog standard Remington 700 will cost you around $1200 US here the fancier fashionable varmint, tactical types will go up in price to near your $2000 and for that price you can buy makes such as Blaser R93, Sauer 202, Mannlicher Pro hunter which is why we see tham and not the Remington 700's despite the heavy fancy advertising for the Remington.

 Folks here are not taken in by this:-

One of the first things you'll notice is it's looks. it's clean barrel and satin finished barreled action are complimented well by it's traditionally styled, satin finished walnut stock

 Taken from the Remington ad for the 700 CDL  . Satin finished means bean blasted so no ploishing required = cheap production. Like wise the wood a cheap spray job with lacquer, clean barrel means they saved the cost of iron sights and then hype it up as desirable  . Some of us like iron sights as back and make sure they are zeroed for the ammunition we use and as for my self I have never lost a game animal due to the high glass blacking of my rifle and scope. My specs probably flash more reflections than they do as I look around  . No to sell them more here first they have to drop the price to an acceptable level for the quality they are producing and that needs to come down to the level of the CZ's at least in price. Failing that up the finish and quality to match the price Oh and sack the lieing ad men 

[Grumulkin]

I confess; I do.  The trigger is perfect out of the box.  I can take the barrel and scope off and put the rifle back together again and it will shot like this.  I can switch barrels and scopes in about 5 minutes.  Being able to take a rifle apart sure makes packing easier as well.  It's also the slickest and fastest bolt action you can have.

[Sweet 6.5]

Hallo

I would not be completely offended if somebody would like to give me one of these :

http://www.blasercustomrifle.com/Blaser_Safari.html

 

[kyelkhunter3006]

I confess; I do.  The trigger is perfect out of the box.  I can take the barrel and scope off and put the rifle back together again and it will shot like this.  I can switch barrels and scopes in about 5 minutes.  Being able to take a rifle apart sure makes packing easier as well.  It's also the slickest and fastest bolt action you can have.

Posts like this do absolutely nothing to NOT make ME want ONE!!!   

[Zachary]

There is no doubt that those are some great groups.  However, I noticed that those groups were shot with 168 grain match bullets.   Yes, I do realize that a point was made about getting groups like that after switching barrels, but I would be more impressed if groups like that came from premium penetrating hunting bullets like Nosler Partitions, Barnes X/TSX, etc. 

Zachary

[Brithunter]

Ahhhh well I got the chance to spend an Morning playing with a pair of 308 Blaser R93's some years ago when a friend and I booked a point on the 200 Short Sibera range at Bisley to do some shooting, his boss asked if he could come along and zero his stalking rifle to which we said sure. Jack (the boss) owned the gunshop where John worked and I got most of my stuff from and he duly arrived with a pair of R93'2 one Zeiss scope in a Blaser mount and a pile of Federal American Eagale ammo as he wanted to check out the claim of returning to zero.

His own stalking rifle at that time was a Mannlicher model M and the zeroing didn't go well  seems he didn't clean the bore just wiped down the outside and as he had been winter Boar shooting in Europe it had got rusty inside and was in pretty poor shape  .

The Blaser's however prooved to be very enlighting  we zeroed the scope on the first rifle at 200 yards then swopped the mount to the second rifle and was astonished to discover that it was on zero for that rifle as well. Now I am not claiming that you could do this with all Blaser's but with these two the POI impact was less than an 1" difference at 200 yards. Between the three of use we put several hundred rounds down range through them both that morning  He also brought a used Mannlicher SSG with green stock in 7x64 which was also very accurate and I was sorely tempted by it but then another rifle came along which betetr fitted my collection or so I thought at the time and I brought that.

The highlight of the morning for me anyway was shooting a Chapuis double SxS rifle in 8x57JRS that he brought along to try out. Recoil was stout with the 196 grain RWS ammo, we were shootign prone, but the accuracy was outstanding for a double rifle and we were able to hold all the shots in the Bull at 200 yards after zeroing the scope. The rifle he had fitted with a Scmidt & Bender short varible and a lot of the shots were actually in the X-Ring of the 200 yard Bisley target. I was smitten but the rifle cost some £4000 ($7400 US) so was beyond my pocket. Thinking back I should have swallowed hard and got a loan  too late now though as I doubt many Double rifles would match it's accuracy. John and I stayed on in the afternoon and shot from the 100 yard position but Jack left so we only had our own rifles to play with. That was my one time shooting the Blaser R93 rifle and I was very ................ very impressed with them. My collection of rifles are mainly early 20th century sporting rifles so the Blaser R93 does not really fit in especially as most of mine are British rifles.

[Grumulkin]

There is no doubt that those are some great groups.  However, I noticed that those groups were shot with 168 grain match bullets.   Yes, I do realize that a point was made about getting groups like that after switching barrels, but I would be more impressed if groups like that came from premium penetrating hunting bullets like Nosler Partitions, Barnes X/TSX, etc. 

Zachary

Of course, the most important thing is that I'm impressed with it.  It will do less than 1 inch groups with the 375 H&H Mag. barrel on it with Hornady 300 gr. FMJ RN bullets; they're not premium but boy do they penetrate.  It also has a Blaser Kickstop in the rifle butt which doesn't add much to the weight and turns it into about the most sweet soft shooting 375 H&H Mag. you'll shoot perhaps short of one with a muzzle brake.

Also, for you gentlemen that don't use match bullets for hunting, you don't know what you're missing.  I used this rifle with the 300 Weatherby Mag. barrel and Berger VLD bullets to take 4 antelope at ranges up to 292 yards this past fall; the bullets blew through all of them; acceptable penetration I would say.  Also, not too long ago I took a deer with a 25/06 shooting Berger 115 gr. VLD bullets at a range of a bit over 200 yards,  The bullet hit the back of the left rear leg and angled toward the right lung.  It wasn't a bang flop kill but the deer didn't go far; once again adequate penetration since a second bullet wasn't needed.

If I ever hunt grizzly or cape buffalo with the rifle, I'll consider using premium bullets.  Actually, I do use premium bullets; premium match bullets.

[Brithunter]

Match bullets provide the penetration but do they provide the expansion? They are illegal to use here in the UK for deer as it states that the bullets must be designed to expand.

[Grumulkin]

Match bullets are hollow point bullets and I think most would agree that hollow point bullets are designed to expand.  Berger VLD bullets are marketed as hunting bullets as well as match bullets.  Also, right on the box of at least some of Barnes hunting bullets, it says they're match bullets.

[MGMorden]

For me, despite the wood/bluing looking to be of high quality, they just look for too "non-traditional" for my tastes.  For the kind of money they're asking I could get a Dakota, Kimber, or any of several other very nice rifles which would suit my tastes much better.

[whiskey101]

Match bullets are hollow point bullets and I think most would agree that hollow point bullets are designed to expand.  Berger VLD bullets are marketed as hunting bullets as well as match bullets.  Also, right on the box of at least some of Barnes hunting bullets, it says they're match bullets.

I called Hornady about hunting with their 168gr match HPBT and they did not recommend hunting with it. They stated that the hollow point in the match bullet was not designed to expand as hunting HPBT's are.

[SDS-GEN]

Match bullets are not designed to expand, the hollow point is designed to change the weight distribution, and BC of the bullet it also creates a "bubble" of air at the tip of the bullet that enhances accuracy.  Some match bullets pencil through or collapse on themselves without expanding, some practically explode on impact, I've never seen a company that recomends match bullets for any kind of hunting.

[Grumulkin]

Some match bullets pencil through or collapse on themselves without expanding, some practically explode on impact, I've never seen a company that recomends match bullets for any kind of hunting.

You need to visit the Berger bullet web site.

[kyelkhunter3006]

Well, the 168gr .308 HPBT Sierra is used by the military and police for "hunting" all of the time.  Also, writer Craig Boddington uses the 220 gr Sierra in his 8mm Remington Mag on a regular basis for game such as elk, black bears, eland, and other plains game.

[Brithunter]

Well, the 168gr .308 HPBT Sierra is used by the military and police for "hunting" all of the time.  Also, writer Craig Boddington uses the 220 gr Sierra in his 8mm Remington Mag on a regular basis for game such as elk, black bears, eland, and other plains game.

So that makes it right?

Hmm the military use non expanding ammo as they signed the Haig Convention which outlaws them, the Police did not so can use what the darned well feel like after all it's only the civilians they normally shoot at! and Boddington well he is Boddington and a law unto himself .................... sorry but his writings have lost the plot a loooooooooooooooong time ago as far as I am concerned. I don't even bother with any of his articles anymore.

The thing is if these match bullets acting like expanding bullets why would they bother with special match bullets or even special hunting bullets as one would do all the jobs would it not? No of course not match bullets are for shooting paper and maybe steel targets not beasts that are quarry. Poeple convince them selves it works and when the lose a beast as WILL happen as the bullet did not expand and didn't hit the spine the beast wanders off to die slowly in most cases they say must ahve missed that one!. We find them occasionally left by poachers  as here you need a variation on your licence to buy expanding bullets or ammunition  (poachers don't normally have this variation) as the Police wanted themselves to be the only to be able to have these sooooooooooooooooooooooooo dangerous bullets. Dangerous yep sure are in Police hands! ours are poorly trained incompentants  where firearms are concerned.

[kyelkhunter3006]

I never said that it makes it right....  I don't even much care for the ballistic tip bullets myself, much less the match ones, for hunting.  I know several Army and Marine snipers, as well as a few police snipers (I hang out in good company, if only I could shoot like them, LOL), and they say that the Sierra will expand somewhat in a fluid target.  Not as much as a bullet that's designed to expand, but enough to not "pencil" straight through. 

As for the Haig Convention, it's my understanding from the military guys that the Sierra meets the requirements, as it's not designed to expand.  I know that the Army and Marines have used it in combat as well.  I guess if one expands, it's considered a bullet failure. 

If I recall, after they had adopted a hollowpoint bullet for the .303 (and other country's were very vocal about it), the British refused to sigh the Haig Convention, so they weren't bound by it.  When they came out with the 174gr full jacket with the aluminum/fiber tip to cover/fill the hollowpoint and thus make it "legal", then they signed the Haig.  Of course, this bullet tumbled crazily after making contact and entering the body, usually making a wound much worse than an expanding bullet would leave.  There's always a loophole to every law, and each government finds it's own way to take advantage of it.


"The thing is if these match bullets acting like expanding bullets why would they bother with special match bullets or even special hunting bullets as one would do all the jobs would it not? No of course not match bullets are for shooting paper and maybe steel targets not beasts that are quarry."

Well hell, you could say the same about any bullet/caliber/rifle.  When the 7x57 was developed, it was (and is) conceivably the perfect all around caliber for the military, hunting, and target shooting.  If people hadn't "bothered" with not settling for just "one that would do all jobs" I think that the shooting world would be pretty boring, very stable, but boring.  Ammo would be easy to find too.     It's the same thing with bullets....if we had just kept to the cup-n-core bullets, then there wouldn't be any Barnes X's, the various ballistic tips, bonded core bullets, match bullets, and so on. 

If we had stopped with the 7x57 and the M98, where would we be today?  Developing new ideas, and getting people to buy into them, that's what keeps companies going and people employed. 

Anyway, this is now horribly off topic.  We've gone from Blaser's to bullets, to politics.  Maybe someone should start a thread about HPBT match bullets for hunting....

[MGMorden]

Hmm the military use non expanding ammo as they signed the Haig Convention which outlaws them

Actually the USA wasn't a signature of the Hague convention until last year.  Up until then we simply used non-expanding ammunition voluntarily.

As for it "being right": technically, expanding ammunition such as soft points tend to kill quicker which is generally a good idea.  All using FMJ bullets does is let you go home to your family looking prettier if you take a fatal hit but from a humane standpoint the expanding ammo is probably better.  Afterall doesn't it seem a paradox that soft points or other similar ammunition are required for hunting for humane kills but banned from military use  . . . for humane concerns?

The real reason why most militaries are going to stick with FMJ anyways though (just as we always did even when not bound by the Hague convention) is that FMJ provide slightly better light armor piercing capability.  Civilian police forces often don't encounter situations where they have to penetrate such armor (and by that I mean vehicles and such).

[john keyes]

but didn't some FMJ bullets tumble and make a really big mess, as intended by some?

[robert4570]

just curious, I see so many on gunbroker, the prices are so high...

 

Back to the subject ,
I've asked my self the same question and I can only assume internatiomal sales would account for the bulk of those sold. Here in the US , I just dont see the appeal when a Kimber,  Dakota or so many others  can be had for around the same if not much less. The quality is there but its hard to justify spending so much to shoot a deer , heck my Dodge Dually does a fine job on deer with minimal expansion..LOL.

[kyelkhunter3006]

just curious, I see so many on gunbroker, the prices are so high...

 

Back to the subject ,
I've asked my self the same question and I can only assume internatiomal sales would account for the bulk of those sold. Here in the US , I just dont see the appeal when a Kimber,  Dakota or so many others  can be had for around the same if not much less. The quality is there but its hard to justify spending so much to shoot a deer , heck my Dodge Dually does a fine job on deer with minimal expansion..LOL.

Ah, but did you get your dually for under $5000???  LOL

[robert4570]

just curious, I see so many on gunbroker, the prices are so high...

 

Back to the subject ,
I've asked my self the same question and I can only assume internatiomal sales would account for the bulk of those sold. Here in the US , I just dont see the appeal when a Kimber,  Dakota or so many others  can be had for around the same if not much less. The quality is there but its hard to justify spending so much to shoot a deer , heck my Dodge Dually does a fine job on deer with minimal expansion..LOL.

Ah, but did you get your dually for under $5000???  LOL

L0L .... Good point .
Wish I could've bought it for 5k.

[Brithunter]

Hmm the military use non expanding ammo as they signed the Haig Convention which outlaws them

Actually the USA wasn't a signature of the Hague convention until last year.  Up until then we simply used non-expanding ammunition voluntarily.

As for it "being right": technically, expanding ammunition such as soft points tend to kill quicker which is generally a good idea.  All using FMJ bullets does is let you go home to your family looking prettier if you take a fatal hit but from a humane standpoint the expanding ammo is probably better.  Afterall doesn't it seem a paradox that soft points or other similar ammunition are required for hunting for humane kills but banned from military use  . . . for humane concerns?

The real reason why most militaries are going to stick with FMJ anyways though (just as we always did even when not bound by the Hague convention) is that FMJ provide slightly better light armor piercing capability.  Civilian police forces often don't encounter situations where they have to penetrate such armor (and by that I mean vehicles and such).

If you read P.O. Ackley's writings there in one palce where he mentioned the performance of soft point bullets on steel plate armour. The US was ttestign armour for the Half tracks windown protection and using the std 06 AP ammo were gettign dents on the plate. Ackley said the plate needed to be thicker but they said it was OK as the 06 AP only dented it so then Ackley shot a hole straight throught their armour palte usign a std factoru Soft Point from a the 220 Swift. We got banned from shooting the Armies Falling Plates at Ash ranges due to our soft point ammo piercing the plates  .

As for the miltaries use of FMJ it's the misguided wounding theory of tieing up more resources of the enemy. That only works with civilised people the scum in the Middle East don't care if Abdul just fell over and screaming in pain they probably just walk over him taking his ammo as they go!

I believe that the first jacketed soft point military use and maybe even the first soft point jacketed bullet was developed at the Dum Dum Arsernal in Northern India during troubles with the Pathan tribesmen and the Dervishes during the days of the British Empire. The 215 grain 303 RN jacketed bullet whizzed through leaving a neat hole and the tribesmen being hyped up on relgious fervour and drugged up didn't notice they had been shot. A superintendant at the Arsenal ( a British Officer) wondered what would happen if the put the jacket on from the back leaving the lead at the nose exposed. The rest is history and it proved very effective, so effective it was claimed unethical, however they original convention allowed it's use against heathens  . This is why expanding bullets were called Dum Dums  .

[Drilling Man]

Match bullets are hollow point bullets and I think most would agree that hollow point bullets are designed to expand.  Berger VLD bullets are marketed as hunting bullets as well as match bullets.  Also, right on the box of at least some of Barnes hunting bullets, it says they're match bullets.

  Match bullets are a poor choise for big game.  Sometimes they rip right through without expanding well and sometimes they break up too soon.  Many times they won't keep in a straight line when they are in an animial...

  I've tested them in the past, and personally, i would not use them on big game, as i respect the animial more than that.

  DM

[kyelkhunter3006]

Part of the reason that the Swift penetrated with it's lightweight bullet was because of the extreme velocity.  So much heat is generated as the bullet passes through the air that when it hits the metal, it actually melts a hole though it as it transfers the built up heat to the metal.  I'm sure the same thing would happen with a 22-250, .204, and many of the extremely high velocity lightweight bullet loads in other rounds.

[no guns here]

I've shot three or four of the Blaser R93's.  I have yet to see or hear of one that won't shoot under an inch easily.  Even the .375 H&H went into around 3/4's center to center.  The .308 would just make one big hole round after round as long as you didn't get it too hot.  We have some for our range guns... lucky us!!!  They are FAST cycling rifles with no doubt.  We have to shoot a running boar target to qualify for our hunting licenses in Germany.  Scoped rifle from the shoulder, kill shot, roughly 2 seconds in view.  One of our instructors could make TWO kill shots with the Blaser.  That straight pull action is just really fast.  There are some detractions.  I seem to have a bit of trouble reloading quickly and they cost a lot.  I want a battery of CZ full stocks in all three action sizes.  I could buy all three for the price of the one Blaser.  I have it on my dream list and will probably sell a few guns when I leave Germany to finance a Blaser R93 and a drilling (Maybe a Blaser drilling if I get rich between now and then).  I don't really understand the high cost of them though.  It's actually a modular action where bolt, bolt head, barrel, and stock are interchangeable.  I guess it takes a lot of precision manufacturing to make that all work so well together when the parts and pieces can be switched around, but then again they are probably all CNC'd so it should be less.

ngh

[Brithunter]

CNC's don;t always make it cheaper nor more accurately  the company I used to work for was looking at them to replace a couple of old peg board Autos. The Boss found a rather nice German made machine that was really accurate but the cost of the machine plus the special high accuracy control system. This system more than doubled the price of the machine and the Boss worked out instead of a three year pay back it would seven years unless he could find a way of working the machine 20 hours a day every day.

Some CNC machines can hold a 0.1mm (0.004") limit all day others a 0.025 (0.001") all day the difference costs a lot. He ended up buying a reconditioned machine that would do al we wanted this machine was only made to special order the cost some 10 or 12 years ago was £250,000 ( $462,500 US) and that was without tooling oh and it was not a large machine the machine itself without bar feed and magazine would fit into a day van. You have to make an awful lot of bits to pay for machines like this  .