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Offline verzilli

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Pressure vs recoil
« on: September 01, 2008, 10:05:08 AM »
Is pressure the primary "cause" of recoil?  Take an encore with a 12" bbl for instance.  A 308 win runs basically at 45-50,000 cup.  This is the same range as a 454 Casull (Hodgdon data).  Does one recoil more than the other?  I've read quite a few posts that say some of the rifle calibers recoil less than the larger pistol calibers.  Is it because a 308 uses a 165-180 gr bullet and a 454 uses a 300+?

I have a 454 encore and reload, but I usually do starting loads (more than enough for deer).  I may want to get into a rifle caliber, but I can't believe the rifle loads would be bearable at all (308, 30-06).  Enlighten!

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2008, 12:30:28 PM »
No. In fact there is no particular direct relationship between pressure and recoil. As a case in point the .45-70 with 500 grain bullets pushed to say 28,000 psi compared to a .221 Fireball pushing 40 grain bullets at 55,000 psi. With the former you'll get the snot knocked out of you and with the latter you'll have nearly no recoil yet pressure is almost double.

Recoil is determined basically by the weight of the gun, weight of the ejecta (bullet, powder, etc) and velocity of the ejecta.


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Offline eodusa

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2008, 02:12:02 PM »
conservation of momentum is the key.



Offline verzilli

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2008, 11:19:24 PM »
Hmmm . . .

Offline TXSPIKE

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2008, 12:56:55 AM »
It's like Graybeard says.The slower burning powders usually give you more recoil because you pack more powder in the case to achive max. pressure.To give you an example,I loaded up around 79grs. of H-870 in my 7mag,it kicked like a mule and gave me under 3000fps on my chronograph.After that,I shot a load of 65.0grs. of IMR-4350,recoil was mild and I was very surprise to see the velocity well over 3100fps.The difference,14grs. of powder!You will feel it!Drop in bullet weight will also cause a significant reduction in recoil.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2008, 09:51:29 AM »
Graybead is right to a point, but pressure does affect recoil as well.

If you add more powder to the same gun, and bullet, the pressure will increase as well as the felt recoil.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2008, 10:26:59 AM »
Graybead is right to a point, but pressure does affect recoil as well.

If you add more powder to the same gun, and bullet, the pressure will increase as well as the felt recoil.

Just plain WRONG. Pressure has zero direct relationship to recoil. That recoil is higher with you add more powder to a given case with a given bullet is NOT the result of pressure but the increase in velocity and ejecta weight. Don't be putting out false info.


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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2008, 03:02:53 PM »
When it comes to the discussion of recoil, the usual issue is how to reduce it. Recoil, or more specifically the anticipation of recoil, is the usual cause of flinching – a shooter’s worst enemy. Flinching occurs when a shooter anticipates recoil and, often unconsciously, jerks the trigger. Reducing recoil can often aid the shooter in concentrating more on the fundamentals of marksmanship and less on reacting to the gun’s recoil.

On more practical terms, recoil can get downright unpleasant. Heavier calibers can produce enough recoil to make the shooting experience less than fun. Reducing recoil can put the fun back into a trip to the range.

Reducing recoil also reduces wear and tear on the gun, extending its life. For semiautomatic pistols, less recoil means slower slide velocity, and less battering of parts.

In some circumstances you might want to increase recoil. For example, more recoil might help the gun to cycle more reliably.  Reliable cycling can also be regulated by spring strength in semi-automatic pistols. For pistols with compensators, more recoil, or to be more specific, more gas pressure, might be desired to make the compensator work more effectively in reducing muzzle climb.

Several factors influence recoil, including bullet weight and velocity, and gun weight and design. Another factor that affects recoil dramatically is the burning rate of the gunpowder. Handloaders have a real advantage here since they can select a gunpowder with a desired burning rate to regulate recoil.

Bullet weight
All else being equal, specifically the same gunpowder and charge weight, lighter bullets produce less recoil. An important feature of this axiom is that the gunpowder is the same for both bullets.  Using different gunpowders for heavy and light bullets changes the whole issue on recoil. With different gunpowders you could end up with more recoil for the light bullets than for the heavy bullets.  The gunpowder issue is discussed in more detail farther down this page.

Gun weight
The heavier the gun, the less the recoil. This assumes the same gun design. Different gun designs can change the felt recoil (see below). Adding weight to a gun can reduce recoil. One common addition to a 1911 pistol is a full-length recoil spring guide rod to replace the common, short version. The weight of the full-length guide rod is ideally placed as well, being at the front of the gun, which helps to dampen muzzle flip. Some gun makers offer full-length guide rods as standard equipment on some models. Some parts manufacturers also offer tungsten full-length recoil spring guide rods. Tungsten is much heavier than steel and adds approximately one more ounce than a steel full-length guide rod.

One concern that competitive shooters have is whether the extra weight, especially of the tungsten guide rods, at the front of the gun makes it feel sluggish when transitioning from one target to another. Most (but not all) shooters don't think so, and the author has not found that to be the case either. A more experienced opinion can be found at Brazos Custom Guns.
 
Gunpowder Burning Rate
The burning rate of a gunpowder can affect how much recoil is produced.  Generally speaking, faster burning gunpowders produces less recoil than slower burning gunpowders.

Different gunpowders burn at different rates. People often put them in categories like fast, medium, and slow. However, there are no clear boundaries for these categories since the burning rates form a continuum from fastest to slowest.  Burning rate charts can be found at several locations on the web (for example: Ramshot Powders, Reload Bench, Vihtavuori Loading Guide). However, there is no clear agreement on the ranking of many gunpowders because the ranking for any given gunpowder varies depending on who made the chart. Therefore, burning rate charts should be used as guides and not as gospel. Never estimate gunpowder charges based on their ranking in a burning rate chart. Always follow a loading guide.

Principles
Okay, in very simplistic terms, here is the logic behind how the burning rate of a gunpowder influences recoil.

1. Faster burning gunpowders reach peak pressure more quickly than slower gunpowders. Consequently, a smaller charge weight is required for faster gunpowders to reach a given velocity.

2. By inference, slow gunpowders require more of it (usually weight) to reach a given velocity.

3. More gunpowder means more gas.  More gas produces more recoil.

4. Therefore, slower gunpowders require more of it to reach the same velocity, and they produce more gas which results in more recoil.

Okay, let me put that in English. When comparing gunpowders with different burning rates, the faster burning gunpowder will produce less recoil when propelling the same bullet to the same velocity. An important feature is that the weight of the gunpowder required to achieve the same velocity is less for the faster burning gunpowder (see box).

Let me give an example to illustrate this point. Let’s say you have two gunpowders, a “fast” one and a “slow” one.  Let’s say that the fast gunpowder requires 5.0 grains to propel a 130 grain bullet at 1000 fps, and that the slow gunpowder requires 6.0 grains to propel the same bullet at the same velocity.  According to the logic outlined above, the fast gunpowder should produce less recoil.

The difference in recoil between a fast and slow gunpowder can be huge! The difference in recoil between two gunpowders with a similar buring rate can be small, but still noteworthy.

Ultimately, you have to test for yourself which gunpowders will produce the least recoil for your needs. But here is a real world example.  I tested two gunpowders made by Winchester: 231 and Super Target. Both of these powders are considered fast burning and both produce light recoil. Opinions vary on which is the faster burning of the two. I tested them to see which might produce the least recoil with one of my favorite bullets, the Remington 147 grain FMJ Match bullet (available at Midway). It takes 4.5 grains of Winchester 231 to launch that bullet at 950 fps from my Colt 5 inch barrel. It takes less, only 4.2 grains, of Winchester Super Target to achieve the same velocity with this bullet. So, there should be less recoil with Super Target since it requires less of it (in weight) to produce the same velocity. And there was. I noted a slight reduction in recoil with Super Target. The difference in recoil when using these gunpowders was very small because the burning rate and charge weight are pretty similar, but there was a palpable difference. I've tested other gunpowders (and in other hangun calibers) and the burning rate priciple has been supported every time. There are likely exceptions to this rule of thumb (see box) but if you're trying to reduce recoil, using a faster burning gunpowder might do the trick.

A Caution About Pressure
While there are advantages to using faster burning gunpowders to reduce recoil, there are limits to the velocity that they can achieve before reaching maximum pressure compared to slower burning gunpowders. Principle #1 above states: Faster burning gunpowders reach peak pressure more quickly than slower gunpowders. Consequently, a smaller charge weight is required for faster gunpowders to reach a given velocity. Another way to view this is that fast gunpowders reach their maximum safe pressure with less gunpowder than slow gunpowders do. And, generally, the velocity achieved by fast gunpowders is less than the velocity achieved by slow gunpowders at the same pressure. So, slower gunpowders often (but not always) produce higher velocities than fast gunpowders when both are loaded to maximum pressure. Another way to look at it is that slow gunpowders can achieve the same velocity as fast gunpowders, but at lower pressure.
 
http://38super.net/Pages/Recoil.html

How Recoil is Determined
Recoil is an expression of Newton’s third law of motion, which is often paraphrased as “for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction.” In other words, the bullet/shot and hot gases go forward, and the gun goes backwards. Various factors pertaining to the gun and bullet/shot determine not only the actual recoil energy that the shooter must absorb, but also subjective amount of recoil the shooter feels that they have experienced. I won’t get into the physics behind these facts for the sake of brevity, however this is basic high school physics. These factors which determine recoil are:

The mass of the gun - All things being equal, a heavier gun will have softer recoil.
The mass of the projectile - All things being equal, a lighter bullet/shot will have softer recoil.
The speed of the projectile - All other things being equal, a faster bullet will have heavier recoil, and the recoil will feel subjectively ’sharper’, since the recoil happens more quickly.


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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2008, 05:25:22 AM »
That was sure a long winded quote from someone else to admit you were full of beans and that pressure has ZERO effect on recoil. Why did you bother?


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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2008, 05:31:26 AM »
How can you say pressure has ZERO effect on recoil?
What is the driving force that propells a bullet down the barrel of any firearm. (Pressure) When you increase the pressure of a given weight, you also increase the recoil. Yes by adding more powder to a cartridge speeds up the bullet, but it also increases the pressere.
That is my point here.

There is a lot more to it the just velocity and ejecta weight
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2008, 06:24:55 AM »
You are REALLY showing your ignorance here ie lack of knowledge. I'll say one more thing then let you roll in your lack of knowledge.

Look up the forumla for recoil. Once you find it show me in it where pressure fits. Hint it DOES NOT. The ONLY things that matter are: weight/mass of firearm, weight/mass of ejecta and velocity of ejecta. If you are just arguing cuz you can't ever agree with me fine but don't be putting out BS here about things you know nothing of and this clearly is one of those things.


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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2008, 09:05:35 AM »
No need to get personal Graybeard. I am not arguing, I thought it was a discussion.

I knew the formula for recoil. And no pressure is not in the formula of recoil.

Without getting personal again, does the pressure of a round increase, if you just add more powder? I am not saying pressure is the cause of recoil. Newton's law takes care of that.

I may very well be wrong, but ignorant, I am not.
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Offline MePlat

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 10:43:28 AM »
Pressure doesn't have to have a place in the formula as it is a given entity because as powder volumn,  hence weight,  goes up gas volumn goes up hence pressure goes up to drive the bullet faster so in that  formula pressure is a representation of increased velocity since  velocity of the bullet weight and the powder is the detemining factor in momentum.  Without pressure we would have no velocity hence no momentum                                                 
Saying pressure has NO part in recoil is incorrect.  Saying it may have a small part probably is more correct
An example of no pressure would be chambering the cartridge and not firing it hence no pressure generated hence no velocity or bullet weight and powder weight hence no recoil
Fire the cartridge,   primer fires,   fires the powder,   creates pressure that dislodges the bullet to push it down the bore giving it increased velocity as it travels toward the muzzle.
Velocity producing the momentum of bullet mass and charge mass.
That is elementary school education.
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Offline MePlat

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2008, 11:36:35 AM »
Carrying this recoil thing further we learned by Mr. Newton that for each action there is a equal reaction such as.
Hornady factory 300gr  454 Casull loads from my 12 inch Encore ran 1800 fpe chronoed.  A 165 gr bullet such as used in a 308 or 30-06 would have to reach  3273 fps to equal the momentum of the 300 gr 454 load.
Even if we discount powder weight there is no way the 15 inch Encore will even approach that velocity with a 165 gr bullet so no way one would it equal the recoil of the 454 in a 12 inch encore.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2008, 12:02:40 PM »
Pressure doesn't have to have a place in the formula as it is a given entity because as powder volumn,  hence weight,  goes up gas volumn goes up hence pressure goes up to drive the bullet faster so in that  formula pressure is a representation of increased velocity since  velocity of the bullet weight and the powder is the detemining factor in momentum.  Without pressure we would have no velocity hence no momentum                                                 
Saying pressure has NO part in recoil is incorrect.  Saying it may have a small part probably is more correct
An example of no pressure would be chambering the cartridge and not firing it hence no pressure generated hence no velocity or bullet weight and powder weight hence no recoil
Fire the cartridge,   primer fires,   fires the powder,   creates pressure that dislodges the bullet to push it down the bore giving it increased velocity as it travels toward the muzzle.
Velocity producing the momentum of bullet mass and charge mass.
That is elementary school education.

That was my point, thank you for making it clear. Without the pressure, you cannot put the laws of motion in gear. 

Maybe I went to far into the question, and just did not give the Wikipedia definition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2008, 12:12:05 PM »
Quote
No need to get personal Graybeard. I am not arguing, I thought it was a discussion.


It is IMPOSSIBLE for two people to have a back and forth discussion and it NOT be personal. By the very nature of a direct back and forth discussion between two people it is by definintion PERSONAL.

Quote
I knew the formula for recoil. And no pressure is not in the formula of recoil.


Right so you are admitting that pressure plays no direct bearing in recoil and therefore regardless of the level of pressure it does not directly affect the level of recoil.

Quote
Without getting personal again, does the pressure of a round increase, if you just add more powder? I am not saying pressure is the cause of recoil. Newton's law takes care of that.


Again I cannot address you directly without it being personal.

The answer is NO. Just adding more powder does not in and of itself add recoil. IF you pick a certain powder and use X number of grains of it in any one given case and with any one given bullet in any one given firearm and then add more of that specific powder then yes MOST OF THE TIME pressure and velocity both rise but NOT always in either case.

BUT adding more powder in grains does not in and of itself increase pressure. If you switch from one powder to yet another and use more pressure might in fact drop and yet recoil might rise.

Quote
I may very well be wrong, but ignorant, I am not.


Sorry but I must disagree in this particular instance on this particular subject. Ignorance is defined by Webster as a lack of knowledge or information on a particular subject. Clearly in this case that definition fits you in regard to this particular topic.

Pressure in and of itself has no direct relaltionship to recoil as I have already clearly shown. If it did then a .223 Remington operating at 55,000 to 62,000 psi would have grossly more recoil than a .45-70 operating at 18,000 to 24,000 psi and yet you and I both know that's simply not the case. Try to get real and get a grasp on what really is happening.

Pressure is what drives the bullet down and out of the barrel so without pressure you do not have a projectile movement to begin with. But how much pressure does not affect recoil. The ONLY factors that do are those that are in the forumula for computing it. It's just that simple and you know it deep down you just want to argue cuz you cannot allow yourself to agree with any thing I say. If I said the sky was blue you'd look up and say nope it looks green to me that grass over there now that looks blue.

If in the formula for computing an entity regardless of what it is there is no consideration of a factor then it is because that one factor has no bearing on the end result. Pressure is not in the formula and it has no direct bearing on recoil. Get over it.


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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2008, 12:23:59 PM »
Graybeard, I am not disagreeing with you, just because it is you. I am disagreeing with you, because I believe there is more to the equation than just the formula.

I enjoy having a discussion with someone, it gets me doing research and helps me learn. I don't think nor would I call you ignorant, just because you only look at the small picture ie the (Formula) for recoil.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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Offline Lone Star

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2008, 12:35:27 PM »
Not to get anyone angry, but looking at another facet of recoil shows that pressure can have a major effect on total recoil.  That facet is a muzzle brake.  The higher the gas energy when the bullet exits the muzzle - read as pressure (velocity) and volume - the more effective the brake is in reducing total recoil of the firearm.  The top IPSC shooters knew this and often used very high-pressure loads in their raceguns to make their brakes more effective.  This recoil reduction value can be calculated very accurately if the mechanics of the brake are known. 

But back to the former unfortunately-heated topic, IMO pressure is not directly part of any calculation to predict recoil when a brake is not in use.  Perhaps that is a statement that all can agree with...... :-[


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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2008, 12:41:39 PM »
Actually brakes don't reduce recoil they redirect it or change the vector of it.


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Offline eodusa

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2008, 06:01:03 PM »
If you want to take into account pressure, then it needs to be converted to some sort of velocity and the mass of the gas.

Example:  Space propulsion.  They use Xenon gas ion, and accelerate it with an EM field.  The heavier the ion, the more impulse (change in momentum).

From a simplified stand point, the gas is accelerating forward pushing the bullet.  It is moving very fast, but the weight is minimal compared to the bullet (typically, and this is simplified).

If you have 17 grains of powder, and it explodes and moves forward at 5000 ft/s, then the momentum (recoil) is weight * velocity....etc...  Where does all that mass go when it ignites?  It takes the form of expanding hot gases.




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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2008, 01:31:50 AM »
Actually, the recoil momentum is:  Bullet weight * muzzle velocity + powder charge wt * gas exit velocity.  Several years ago, I read that most cartridges (rifle cartridges, at least) have about the same gas exit velocity regardless of pressure.  I can't recall the exact number, but as I recall it was in the range of about 4500 fps - could be higher, I just don't remember.  Clearly, increasing the charge weight will increase the powder gas component of recoil.  If you increase the charge weight of the same powder, then you increase the pressure, but if you use a slower burning powder you may decrease pressure and thus bullet velocity, in which case total recoil might be lowered.  Graybeard is absolutely correct that muzzle brakes don't decrease recoil; they redirect it, resulting in a change in felt recoil.

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2008, 02:23:29 AM »
Now that I am completely confused could someone explain what role pressure plays in a given cartridge if anything?
I always thought that pressure was what propelled the bullet causing momentum which in turn caused recoil.
I always thought that powder producing gasses in large amounts when confined caused pressure that propelled the bullet.
I thought the bullet moving foward at a high rate of speed cause momentum.
I thought momentum was the cause of recoil.
I thought that the absense of pressure caused no velocity.
I thought no velocity caused no momentum hence no recoil.

I would like for someone,  I don't care who just anybody that is kind enough to explain where I have been wrong for all these years.
My apologies to all concerned on this subject.
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Offline Lone Star

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2008, 10:26:02 AM »
Quote
Actually brakes don't reduce recoil they redirect it or change the vector of it.
I know you are not a fan of brakes GB, but as far as any shooter who uses one is concerned - brakes reduce recoil.  I probably should have said "felt recoil" but then again I was changing the topic - remember?    ;)

Quote
I thought momentum was the cause of recoil.
That depends on how you want to measure it.  The conventions for describing firearm recoil include momentum and kinetic energy.  The results can be dramatically different when comparing different firearms.

Quote
I always thought that pressure was what propelled the bullet causing momentum which in turn caused recoil.
This has morphed so far off the OP's original question that it is laughable. Apology accepted BTW.     Have fun boys.....   ::)
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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2008, 05:51:56 PM »
This has morphed so far off the OP's original question that it is laughable.

Yup, U rite...so now I can post... Gun go bang, bullet leave barrel, stock push on shoulder, deer fall dead, and we are getting bent out of shape about ... what?  Now if we was talking about a 243...  ;D
Richard
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Offline HHI-7420

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2008, 01:38:07 PM »
Okay, here goes. If you are going to have a valid comparision you have to have a standard. Take a 44mag/240gr/22grs 2400. Now just change the weight of the slug to, say, 320grs. What's going to happen besides you calling 911 because the higher PRESSURE removed your fingers, ruined your gun, and the added RECOIL broke your wrist. Not necessarily true, but just my thoughts.  Pat

Offline bubbadoyle

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2008, 02:04:30 PM »
I have to agree with graybeard.  Think of it this way.  A 300 grain bullet and a 200 grain bullet from a 454 casull both pushed to identical pressures.  Which will have more recoil?  Or lets say you load two 30 caliber loads with 180 grain bullets to identical pressures with two different powders yet one leaves the muzzle 300 fps faster, then which one recoils more?  Same pressures but different recoil.
We all know pressure is what pushes the bullet down the bore but it is not a determining factor in recoil.  While most of the time in a given caliber pressure going up will result in more recoil that is usually because the bullet became heavier or the velocity became faster, hence the weight x mass formula.

Offline MePlat

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Re: Pressure vs recoil
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2008, 01:46:01 AM »
Amazing,   absolutely amazing.
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