Damage caused by cleaning

[Mike Britton]

OK guys and girls,
My wife has said for the last forty years that I'm not happy unless I'm stirring up some $%&^ somewhere, so here goes.
I had an Uncle, combat pilot in WW2, life long shooter, handgun aficionado, Jedi Knight that got me started shooting as a youngster.
It was Britt's belief that we do more harm to our weapons cleaning them than we do shooting them.
He felt strongly enough about this that he wouldn't clean his Ruger M2 bull barrel until it quit functioning!
I, on the other hand, clean mine until they can be used for surgery.
My wife claims the only reason I shoot my guns is so I'll have a reason to clean (fondle, in her words) them.
I was on another thread talking about lead buildup and got to thinking, what does everbody else think about how clean is clean enough?

[ironglow]

  Mike;
  I am a hunter not a target shooter..I clean my .22 rimfires only occasionally., The 17 rf and centerfires i clean after each use and 3
  days later.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

I often read that more barrels have been wrecked when cleaning than due to anything else.  So, I would guess it depends on how the person is cleaning his gun.  A quality rod, good boreguide, and some common sense and I don't think cleaning would cause any problems.  If you like scraping a steel rod against the lands or the crown, you might be better off not cleaning it.

Jim

[Swampman]

"It was Britt's belief that we do more harm to our weapons cleaning them than we do shooting them."

I completely agree.  With modern ammo, cleaning more than once a year is unnecessary.

[Badnews Bob]

I clean the actions on my .22s but not the bore, My CZ 452 probably has around 6000 rounds thru it and the bore has yet to be cleaned, It shoots .25 inch 10 round groups at 50 yards regularly. Most of my center fires get cleaned when the shoots start to not go where I piont them, Most cleaning techniqes where developed for corrosive ammo that most people don't use anymore.

Should you not clean your firearms? Nope. But I don't think they need the scrubbing they did 40 or 50 years ago.

[Glanceblamm]

I have to keep that copper fouling in check, specially the Pred/Varm rigs. With my other firearms I still have to deal with the effects of heat & humidity on the carbon steel as well as the Sweating caused from being brought in out of the cold and will clean everything inside & out.

If you were talking a jointed aluminum rod that may come loose and expose an edge along with the porosity qualitys which will trap grit and then quickly use this thing free hand just so you can be done with it you may be headed for trouble.

I use the vices, action guides and or those brass bore cones with the one piece stainless rods and carefully clean those firearms.

[gypsyman]

Depends on the caliber,ammo, and how many rounds actually shot. How well the barrel was rifled.Many variables. Use a bore guide from the rear, or a muzzle guard on the front of the barrel, a good one piece rod, and no reason to believe that you'll do anymore damage, than a bullet being slammed down the barrel, with a bunch of heat and pressure behind it. I'm actually, more afraid of some of the more aggressive solvents, than the rod or brush.  gypsyman

[Dee]

My Winchester Model 94 3030 was bought new in 1958. It has been apart TWICE! in fifty years. Has it been carried? You bet it has. It rode in the floor board on the transmission hump of a patrol car for 20 years, was carried in the Red River bottoms on several man hunts, has been hand loaded up and down, for everything from squirrels to men, deer and hogs, and I doubt it has had fifty factory loads thru it in these fifty years. Will it shoot? I am still good with it's Lyman apeture sight out to about 260 yards, even still at almost 60 years old. And that's on gallon water jugs.
Was it dirty inside when I took it apart? Not as dirty as you might think, and it was functioning just fine when I stripped it down.
I never clean the bore on my 22s and one of them is about 30 years old. An AR15 will shoot dirty, but it won't shoot dry.
Bores are worn out at the crown, and the throat, MANY TIMES from too much cleaning. I wipe'm down and put'em up.

[Graybeard]

Nuttin I hate much worse than cleaning guns so I do it the very least I can get by with. Never ever clean a rimfire barrel unless and until accuracy degrades is my policy and basically the same really with centerfires. I waste no extra time doing gun cleaning that isn't needed.

[Mike Britton]

I clean mine spotless because that's what my dad taught me before he passed away, and when I got drafted the army was the same way. We had M14s in basic, and we fired 4-500 rounds a day sometimes. Our job before dinner was to get that pogo stick immaculate. So it's just habit I guess.
 However, some of my guns don't get shot much and I feel that if they sit for really long times I don't want anything in the bore that attracts moisture.
Also, and I'll bet I'm really going to stir it up here, I was taught many years ago by a competition muzzle loader to wax my guns.
That's right, Johnson's floor wax. The stuff in the yellow tin. Three times. Wipe it on, let it haze, and wipe it off.
I have something in my blood that will rust anything. My dad wouldn't let me handle his micrometers. I can leave a thumb print over night on a piece of raw steel.
Since I started waxing my guns, I've had no rust issues, and they clean up easier after I've shot them.
It doesn't seem to have any effect on bluing or case hardening, as I have some old rifles that I've been doing this to for years.

[magooch]

The cleaning issue would be a good question for gun manufacturers.  Personally, I clean my guns after every use, but all I do for the inside of the barrels is run a snake through them, two, or three times--the first time with a little solvent and the last time with a little oil.  It works for me.  And I agree with the idea that if bullets ripping down the barrel don't cause damage, then running a snake down there, sure as heck ain't going to hurt.

I also think that gun cleaning is a neat excuse for fondling.

[Swampman]

How do you guys foul your barrel before you hunt?  Surely you don't take a shot at an animal with a oily bore.  It usually takes 4-5 shots to get a clean barrel to shoot right again.

[AtlLaw]

How do you guys foul your barrel before you hunt?

I go through the same routine every year: After deer season I decide which rifles I'm going to hunt with the next season, then I start working up that next year's hunting hand load - cleaning the bore every 20 - 30 rounds.  Once I'm happy with a certain load for a given rifle for that year I do a detailed cleaning of the rifle, and then shoot a few rounds at 200 yards - settle the action/stock together, foul the bore and get dead on at 200 yds.  An exterior wipe down and the rifle goes back into it's safe until hunting season starts.  After the season it gets another detailed cleaning and a nice long rest until it comes up in rotation again!   

[Dee]

I clean mine spotless because that's what my dad taught me before he passed away, and when I got drafted the army was the same way. We had M14s in basic, and we fired 4-500 rounds a day sometimes. Our job before dinner was to get that pogo stick immaculate. So it's just habit I guess.
 However, some of my guns don't get shot much and I feel that if they sit for really long times I don't want anything in the bore that attracts moisture.
Also, and I'll bet I'm really going to stir it up here, I was taught many years ago by a competition muzzle loader to wax my guns.
That's right, Johnson's floor wax. The stuff in the yellow tin. Three times. Wipe it on, let it haze, and wipe it off.
I have something in my blood that will rust anything. My dad wouldn't let me handle his micrometers. I can leave a thumb print over night on a piece of raw steel.
Since I started waxing my guns, I've had no rust issues, and they clean up easier after I've shot them.
It doesn't seem to have any effect on bluing or case hardening, as I have some old rifles that I've been doing this to for years.

I had an officer that worked for me back in the 70s that had a lot of acid in his system, and everything he touched seemed to rust. Back then, you didn't see many stainless steel handguns, and we used to take automobile wax (Johnson turtle wax) and wax our revolvers and pistols. It worked very well in our humid climate for about 6 months, and then we just wax'em again. Never heard of using floor wax though.
Although I'm too old and busted up to work like that now, I do miss handling a good Model 19 with holster wear, and custom wood grips. Bill Jordan had a good idea, and Smith was wise to listen.

[Glanceblamm]

It usually takes 4-5 shots to get a clean barrel to shoot right again.

Not mine it doesnt...That is one of the ultimate test to see where a bullet will go when fired through a cold clean bore and one that I have payed attention to. I do have to admit that I am not much for using an oil patch unless the gun is going to be stored for a while.

[Swampman]

That would make your firearms different from the thousands I've fired.  I've never seen a gun that shot well with oil in the barrel, or a clean barrel.

[Dee]

WOW! Fired thousands of firearms. That's quite a claim. As a police ranger instructor, SRT leader ect. for 20 years, I have fired "possibly" a couple hundred weapons. But THOUSANDS?
The truth is, whether the barrel be just clean, or oiled, the point of impact WILL CHANGE after being fired. After being fired the point of impact will settle in, and remain until the barrel becomes dirty or fouled to the point it affects accuracy. Once the barrel has been re-cleaned, at least for the first shot, the point of impact will once again change for that first or possibly even second shot. Then, once again it will settle back in to group consistently. Sometimes the change is not too significant, but there will be change.
Accept or deny, that is the truth of the matter.

[Glanceblamm]

I would be highly dissapointed if my Coyote rifle failed to hit poi (a 3/4" circle) on that first shot with the next four closing in to make a sub moa group and this feat would hardly raise any eyebrows. Your principals are basically sound though as the (fouling shot) is almost universal whether it be real or imagined.
I personally got caught on the day before my first handgun hunt for Deer in 2004. It was late in the afternoon and I had most everything ready when the thought of having a cold clean barrel on hand struck me I immediately went out and fouled the barrel to include all six cylinders. Latter testing proved that this made little or no difference though.

How much do you figure that an oiled down bore will throw a shot off by for those first five shots or so? is it really going to exceed what is needed to cleanly take Deer size game at reasonable ranges? I have never heard of someone shooting a 2" group say with their .270 and then saying Whoa, this gun is way to clean for sure!

[Glanceblamm]

Sometimes the change is not too significant

Good articulation Dee, thanks as I do believe that this is what I was trying to get at.

[Swampman]

A 2" group with a .270 would make most folks say "whoa! this is the most accurate .270 I've ever seen."

I've owned hundreds of guns personally.  I've been shooting mine and other peoples guns for 45+ years.  Maybe not thousands, but at least a thousand.

[PartsMan]

I often read that more barrels have been wrecked when cleaning than due to anything else. 

I was given a gun that has never been cleaned!
You think the guys that wrote that want to buy it?

I have noticed a small change in poa with a oiled bore but I think a rusted bore would be worse.
Maybe a 1/4" or 1/2" bigger group clean.
Never a big enough change to keep me from hunting.
The only time I even think about it is working up loads.

[Swampman]

Modern ammo isn't corrosive.

[Dee]

"Complete neglect" as DakotaElkSlayer indicated on the gun given to him IS CORROSIVE.

[PartsMan]

I agree. It desn't matter what ammo you use.
Store it long enough without cleaning and it will rust.

I suppose if a you shot a gun a couple times a week you could go a couple years without cleaning.

[Mike Britton]

Modern ammo isn't corrosive.

Modern ammo isn't corrosive true, but burned powder left in the barrel IS hydroscopic(sp?) in that it attracts moisture.

[Swampman]

I can only say that in 45 years of cleaning my guns about once a year, I've never had a problem.  IMO you're wasting your time but hey, it's your time.

[jgalar]

Going through the safe about a year ago I discovered a Winchester shotgun I had forgot I even owned. I got to thinking - when was the last time I shot this thing. It was about 13 years ago. I opened it up to see if had been cleaned at all. Nope. I looked like it had hundreds of rounds put through it.

When I tore it down and gave it a thorough cleaning I could find zero evidence of any corrosion or damage from the neglect.

Usually I wipe them down to get off the fingerprints, maybe run a boresnake through the barrel. Every so often (not very often) I will run an oiled patch down the bores of safe queens.

If I lived in FL again I would be more diligent in my oiling, but not much more in cleaning.

[Mike Britton]

I could probably save myself a lot of effort, as my Uncle used to say, but then I wouldn't be able to fondle them as much. On second thought, I guess I could.
Seriously, one thing I've come to realize is that the guns I have with weak finishes need more cleaning that those with really good blue, and as many of the pieces in my safe have come down through the family, they need all the help they can get.

[Glanceblamm]

Having a low humidity storage area seems to be the best bet as otherwise the rust can do its thing fast. I have tryed maintenance items such as those wands or even the bags & dehumidifiers but the maintenance on these is greater than what is required for the guns!

Used to be that I could display my guns in a fine walnut cabinet right in the living room which is maintained at a comforatable humidity level. Those days are gone as the chance for theft has caused us to go with more isolated, hidden areas of the house which can have dampness or higher humidity. I still like to keep the powder fouling or especially the copper fouling in check though.

[Swampman]

I live in FL and my gun safe is in the bathroom closet.  The room is constantly full of steam from hot showers.  Once a year I put one of these emmiter cups in the safe.  I have no rust period.  I got a whole case of them for free because the date was expired.

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