Hmmm...you decide...

[ironglow]

  We have been hearing for some time now, how 3 of the 4 candidates in this year's presidential sweeps have offspring in the military..
  Michelle Malkin (among others) has done a little checking...
  Seems like the McCains have had 2 sons serving in Iraq..one a lance Cpl Marine is there now, Sarah Palin's son will deploy this month
  ...infantry, in a Stryker brigade....
  Joe Biden's son Beau, is a Lt. in the Deleware National Guard. Has never deployed..and even if he does..he is shuffling papers as a
  judge advocate...not quite like an Army or Marine infantryman..
 
   Now, I don't play down the NG..especially those serving in combat arms..I was one once myself (NY 27th div, APCs) before regular
  service.....

   ...But weren't we told in the campaign of 2004 that National guard service doesn't count..even for a fighter pilot ?

[ms]

LET THE BEST PUPPET WIN. Joe Biden's son Beau, is a Lt. in the Deleware National Guard. Has never deployed..and even if he does..he is shuffling papers as a  JUST LIKE BUSH DID A FATHER LOVE THERE BOTH COWDERS. 

[beemanbeme]

IG, What @!!#*^&#@! difference does it make?  Are you voting for his son?  I am voting for Sara not her daughter. What exactly is your point?

When my youngest was 17 and a Jr in High School, Desert Storm was getting cranked up and he begged me to sign him into the Marine Corp. I refused! Does that make me a bad parent? Does it mean my son is a coward?

I know the media and some of the various party hacks are getting pretty scummy in trying to appease the bottom feeders, and some of the more prurient in here are no better but aren't you a little better than those people?  I think so.

[Dee]

Good lord ironglow, are you so desperate to defame Obama, that you are now comparing candidate son's service record.
Wasn't your grandson's deployment as an armorer, while my son's was as a combat Sgt? Your past posts indicated that he was. Wouldn't that mean that while my son was fighting house to house with the 82nd Air Borne, your grandson was sitting in a nice air conditioned building SAFELY ON BASE working on armament? This is ludichrist. Your really getting out there brother.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Hold on there....  I thought we weren't supposed to talk about the candidate's family; I thought family was supposed to be private?!  Well, if you want to open it up...   

Jim

[ms]

When my youngest was 17 and a Jr in High School, Desert Storm was getting cranked up and he begged me to sign him into the Marine Corp. I refused! Does that make me a bad parent? Does it mean my son is a coward?  not at all maybe you but only you can answer that. I tell all kids to go to school void the military. War is because two rich men are fighting between them self's and the poor and middle class and some rich people kids die.

[Sourdough]

War is when you are attacked by others that don't believe as you do.  They are so jealous of what you have, since they can't attain it they want to bring you down to their level.

And, I'm not voting for the kids, the wives, husbands, mothers, fathers, I'm voting for the candidates period.

[james]

I agree with most of the above.  I have a Marine daughter that is on her third tour in Iraq flying a copter for cas-evacs.  The brass tried to give her a desk job in the states after her 2nd tour but she wanted to fly.   She thinks no one can do a better job than she can.  She knows the danger as her roommate (also a pilot) was shot down and all seven on board were killed.  Her room mate was Jennifer Harris from Mass. and she was an only child.  I feel the grief of her parents every time I think of her.   It makes me no better or worse person because of my daughter's ideals but it would affect my decision making process if I was to determine if we send our children off to war.  Incidentally, my two boys decided in ROTC that the military was not for them.  And that was fine with me.

[ironglow]

  Beeman;
         While I give credit to each and every person who serves or has served; the whole message wraps around my last sentence.
     We were told by the Democrats in 2004 that only active combat duty was worthwhile. as ms just intimmated in his last post,
  The Dems said service in the Nat Guard doesn't count ! Remember, they said pres Bush's NG service was of no avail ?
      Contrary to running down tyhe NG, I am disputing their conclusions !    If you had read my first post, you would see that i said i was
   once a National guardsman..I even gave the unit designation...
   Dee;
  Apparently you didn't read some of my posts concerning what my grandson did in Iraq. His first deployment was with the Marine's
   22nd MEU (Special Ops). which he special trained long and hard for. He studied such things as rappelling down from choppers,
   clandestine amphibious landings and a host of other skills only taught to Special operations troops . When he did pre-deployment,
  he and his other Spec Ops Marines trained with/against other elite forces..Rangers, Special forces, Seals and in Kuwait....with the
  British SAS (Special Air Service..UK's best). BTW: he's also a certified martial arts instructor with several degree belts !
  Deployed in Iraq..Al Anbar province, working in and around Ramadi and Fallujah. He spent little time in any FOB (no fobbit) His time
  was spent at such mundane tasks as kicking in doors, chasing terrorists in their "technicals", clearing "safe houses", and
   hunting Al Queda through the streets of Ramadi, Fallujah, Hit, and a host of names I can't even pronounce. Upon occasion he was
    called upon for "special skills"...because he and one other Marine was their unit's designated snipers. These duties included a couple
   one-on-ones with Al Queda snipers...each a "high noon" moment !
        Yes, he did work his MOS of armorer..but it was usually far from any FOB..and often it required clearing weapons and repairing
   machine guns during or immediately after firefights. Even his last night in Iraq he hoped for a quiet night in his hooch...but at about
   2300 hours he was called out to participate in a firefight.

 

   His second deployment, he was scheduled to work full time as armorer at Al Asad Marine air base..between Ramadi & Fallujah,
  which he did do..except for the first couple weeks. The first couple weeks was rather tough, since the "surge' had just started.
   ... When the terrorists heard our Congress talking "pull out" and "cut funds to the troops"..they were energized to attack our
  troops as rigorously as possible. At that point, my grandson joined an "all volunteer" mission that was as he said, a "meatgrinder".
  Can't disclose details, but suffice to say some Al Queda had moved back into a Fallujah neighborhood..pulled some junk (classified)
  and dared the Marines to root them out. A small, fast strike force of Marines took the dare ..and Al Queda died.
   The rest of his second deployment was quiet..and he worked his MOS, mostly at Al Asad.
  
  He is now a Platoon Sgt. back at Parris Island..if I told his job he could be sorted out by unsavories..so I won't.

           Don't think because of an MOS someone is excluded from heavy combat, especially in a Special Ops unit..he kicked in doors in
   Ramadi with a computer programming specialist beside him at times..but that was not a run-of-the-mill computer programmer !

  See a couple pics below..he is not just another desk pilot ! First pic during a lull in fighting in Ramadi, second pic at Al Asad.


  Note correction: I had mistakenly written 1984..when I meant 2004 in the first paragraph.

[powderman]

What is this??? Pick on Ironglow day??? He simply posted some facts about the candidates families, so what??? He in no way made light of anybodys service, or lack of it. Had it been some more libby crap and outright lies from tm or one of his clones I reckon that would have been ok? Nothing wrong with serving in the NG, unless you're president Bush of course. All those in ALL of our armed forces put their lives on the line every day, they, and their families,  are targets for the Godless ones and loonies no matter where they live, or are deployed. I applaud and pray for ALL of our brave men and women daily, and always in church.  Some of you need to get a life. I am thankful for each and every one of our brave military, may God bless them. POWDERMAN.  

[ironglow]

 Thank you Powderman;
  You said it more clearly than I did in my lengthy post. I have neighbors and fellow church members serving with the National guard,
  another young friend with the First Ranger battalion and a young lady serving in the Air Force as an air-to-air rocket designer.
  I not only applaud each of them, but their spouses that ALSO SERVE...

[ms]

Good lord ironglow, are you so desperate  I AGREE.

[Dee]

ironglow you DID COMPARE the other two candidates son's against Biden's son, and YOU DID DEGRADE HIS SERVICE BY STATING HE WOULD BE NOTHING MORE THAN A PAPER SHUFFLER, JUDGES ADVOCATE, AND MADE THE CONDESCENDING REMARK THAT HE WOULD NOT BE LIKE A MARINE OR INFANTRYMAN.
THIS BOY HAS DONE NOTHING TO YOU, OR ANYONE ELSE AND HIS SERVICE DOES NOT DESERVE THE TREATMENT YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM BY YOUR REMARKS, JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE HIS FATHER, OR OBAMA. TO SAY YOU DID NOT "PLAY DOWN" HIS POSTION, AND THEN "NOTE" HE HAD NOT DEPLOYED, IS BS!
I am sure you grandson is a fine young man, but noting his accomplisments only further indicates you missed my point. I could post an album of photos of combat scenes concerning my son's two tours of Iraq, and one in Afganistan, but there are thousands of them that have done just as much.
Your problem is, that you are on a dirt digging mission concerning Obama, and Biden, and you have gotten so out of control fanatical about it, you are now bringing in their military son's for comparison. You brought this up, you started this thread, no one else has. You are getting further and further out there, trying to convince others to agree with you.
Shame on you.

[billy_56081]

  I have to say from personal experiance that all who serve, give of themselves, some give more, some give less some gave all. I myself served in the United States army in the First Gulf war. I know of one young Pfc that volunteered for a mission to crawl into a bunker and capture an Iraqi Officer alive. This young man was armed only with a bayonet, and an M9 Beretta. Inside the bunker he killed a sentry with the Bayonet by cutting his throat. He then entered the main portion of the bunker and head shot 2 other armed Iraqi's with his M9. The officer surrendered and was takin in by the soldier. When our young Pfc was debriefed, he was asked if he felt any guilt over killing the three. His answer was not in the slightest and that he actaually enjoyed it. And to this day he still feels no guilt over it. Trust me I know him very well.

  Now I don't need anyone to tell me about who's service is more dangerous or more important or dangerous than who's. I know! I will also tell you that the guys driving truck in this war are in as much or more danger than the Grunts busting down doors. The guys down in Scania were getting mortared and rocketed very regularly, the MN national Guard manned Scania for 15 months and no one there would tell you that sitting on thier base was safe in any way.

  And service by the children shows that they have been raised well. God, family and country! Is thier any more to be said?

 I am very proud to Announce, tomorrow, my youngest child, Anna Marie, will be sworn into the Minnesota National Guard. My son Dustin Robert has just completed his 2nd year of service in the Minnesota National guard, and my son is a mechanic and my daughter is enlisted to be a fuel depot worker. in 2010 our unit is scheduled to be deployed again, I pray for thier saftey and am proud of thier service. A roadside bomb will not differentiate between a combat troop or a support troop. They are all heros, heck I think our cooks were the greatest of heros when we had been without hot chow for a few days.

[ironglow]

  To those who have piled on;
    You all heard my reply and explanation..if you have trouble understanding or don't wish to understand..suit yourself !
  I have no intention of staying on as bait in a "feeding frenzy"...

[Dee]

You started it, now you don't like it. You thought you would get support denigrating a solider just because he was Joe Biden's son, and you were wrong.
I think you've lost it, by denying what you clearly said, in your opening post to YOUR THREAD. Your not bait, and this ain't a feeding frenzy. This is folks taking up for a soldier you demeaned because of who his father is. Your in the outer limits on this one. I think your have gotten "wound up too tight", over this election. SO! Run chicken run,on this one ironglow. You did what you did, and that's a fact in writing. YOUR writing.

[Dee]

  We have been hearing for some time now, how 3 of the 4 candidates in this year's presidential sweeps have offspring in the military..
  Michelle Malkin (among others) has done a little checking...
  Seems like the McCains have had 2 sons serving in Iraq..one a lance Cpl Marine is there now, Sarah Palin's son will deploy this month
  ...infantry, in a Stryker brigade....
  Joe Biden's son Beau, is a Lt. in the Deleware National Guard. Has never deployed..and even if he does..he is shuffling papers as a
  judge advocate...not quite like an Army or Marine infantryman..
 
   Now, I don't play down the NG..especially those serving in combat arms..I was one once myself (NY 27th div, APCs) before regular
  service.....

   ...But weren't we told in the campaign of 2004 that National guard service doesn't count..even for a fighter pilot ?

You did what you did, and you said what you said about the boy. The worst part of all is, it is right here for all to see, and your denying it. Shame on ya!

[ironglow]

  Dee;
  It's about time you woke up and smelled the coffee ! Sure I said  a judge advocate is a paper shuffler..Isn't that much of what a judge
   advocate does ?  Or does a judge advocate load artillery, fix an end connecter and reinstall a tank track, call grid coordinates for artillery ?
   You are the one caught in a false accusation/assunption (post#3)..assuming that since my grandson's MOS is armorer, that he sat in a
   FOB with air conditioning etc. Nothing could be further from the TRUTH..he weathered the 130 degree heat and the below freezing cold
  in that 50 cal turret which  was often exacerbated by the speed of pursuit...just as many troops have, even though it got better after
  the surge started taking hold.
  
   Don't know what your problem is, but recently you have been taking me to task over minutia..when your stomach sweetens up again,
   come on back & chat with me a while... .

[nomosendero]

Come on guys! I am not worried about Biden's son nor Sara's daughter. But I am very concerned about Biden & in support of Sara.

My youngest son has just started his deployment in Irac. To be honest, I am not crazy about him taking on the most dangerous job over there & it puts a little different perspective on things. But I do know he will do what is required.

We are all human, but let's be consistant with all of this. 

[Sourdough]

One thing I would like to point out.  No jobs over there are exempt from danger.  My wife is a retired AF paralegal, now working for the Dept Of The Army.  A good friend of hers, an attorney went to Iraq a short time ago.  Her friends Humvee was hit by an IED and her friend lost her leg.  Therefore even the so called desk jockies can see plenty of action. 

[ironglow]

  Absolutely right Sourdough;
  Even a paper shuffler can face such a challenge in the big sandbox. Such is asymetrical warfare.
  When I wrote the post that started this whole shindig..I was simply pointing out how strange it is that
  according to the Dems in 2004, Nat Guard service was not considered valid military..but now, in 2008 it is.
 
  Some like to think that I was giving the Nat guard short shrift..nothing could be further from the truth !

 Re-read my first post; I said I was not denigrating the guard, in fact I once was a Guardsman...
  but I guess that escaped angry eyes...who knows what irks some folks ?

 

[powderman]

Dee. What has happened to you lately??? You have been pretty disagreeable and downright nasty to some good folks here. I expect it from tm, but not you. POWDERMAN. 

[beemanbeme]

IG, your "gee fellows, this is just for your info" post wasn't as innocent as you later claimed. I believe anyone that serves is providing a vital service to their country.  Regardless of the task. The skeevies have to be counted, the food has to be cooked, the oil has to be changed. Everybody can't be a hero.

In the FWIW dept. In Korea, when the Allied forces were literally in peril of being driven into the sea at the southern tip of the peninsula, the Marine Corp Cooks and Bakers School in Illinois was closed down and the students were issued weapons and 782 gear, transported to Korea, and sent into the lines. They did well --being Marines -- and won several battle citations.  Sometimes those skeevies stackers can come in handy.

Special to MS, that big THUD you hear is your creditability hitting rock bottom.

[ms]

beemanbeme  I thought you were better then that .

[Ponydog]

Served or not served.......I dont get it, this election , is about the direction of our country ......in addition to having to buy a hunting liscense, fill out a ton of paperwork when you buy a gun, answer some questions about the type of ammo you even buy in some states....what One party wants, is for you to not have to worry about that anymore....because there wont BE any hunting, or ammunition , or guns to buy...make no mistake....and NO , I am not paranoid.......in my short lifetime of 48 years, I have seen more and more regulation , political correctness, and stupidity grip this countries government.   This is not about who served......unless you want to debate that in an Obama administration, our soldiers may have to fight with broomsticks and axes....and that is just one freedom that is at stake......there is also talk of "leveling income distribution ".........wanna know what THAT means.....look it up.....
Dont take my word for it.....even Gandhi spoke of the atrocity that laid waste to an entire people, because their own government took their guns away from them ...I will post two comments made by two very different individuals....and let you decide who sounds like who.



"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed the subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non ("sine qua non",  it is latin.
it means "without which (it is) not (possible)").......... for the overthrow of any sovereignty." -- Adolf Hitler (H.R. Trevor-Roper, Hitler's Table Talks 1941-1944)

The leaders of our freedom struggle recognised this, even Gandhi the foremost practitioner of passive resistance and non-violence had this to say about the British policy of gun-control in India:

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." -- Mahatma Gandhi (An Autobiography OR The story of my experiments with truth, by M.K. Gandhi, p.238)

 An example of British thinking in colonial times:

"No kingdom can be secured otherwise than by arming the people. The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave. He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion." --James Burgh (Political Disquisitions: Or, an Enquiry into Public Errors, Defects, and Abuses) [London, 1774-1775]


I will leave you with this thought........and understand , I am a Patriot......not a wild eyes conservative...I pay my taxes, I worship in my own free way , I protect my family , I work, and defend my Country , The United States of America......I place my hand over my heart when the National Anthm is played....and even in our darkest hours, no matter who sat in the Oval Office, I have ALWAYS been proud of my country ...I am not perfect, nor do i point fingers at others for doing what they thought was best....I do not pretend to know what is in the heart of another man, but I know I could not sit in a place of worship, that condemned and defied our own country for 20 years...nor could I openly , and by my own admission, consort with a known terrorist....I speak of things that I know to be true, because they have been openly spoken of by the individual .........I decided to enter a reply, knowing I will be retorted to , by Democrats who think Obama is the true way of change.....I have yet to hear how that change will occur, or what that change does to help America.  It sounds to me like increased taxes, increased legislation of our freedoms, and increased hand outs, for those who already drag this country down, by not participating in life..by working , if able, paying taxes, and not expecting the government , to pay for their existance....I cannot explain to my children, when we are a t a grocery store, why the lady in front of us , has those little pieces of paper, that pay for all her groceries.....and why she gets into a better car that we have, and that they know it is one of their classmates Mom, and they knwo he has no dad, and his Mom does not work........because my children are smart enough to observe I work two jobs , to make ends meet.....and we still cant do all we'd like to .....I tell them simply that the Goverment pays money for poeple who need help.....their comment is simply , she looks fine to me...why doesn;t she have two jobs too?       When you all get finished argueing about who served, and in what branch  of the Armed Forces.....please answer that question for me, so I can tell my kids.......and remember, Obama, wants to "level the income distribution "...even more........you know, in this country , some people get rich by work, others by inheritance, others by chance......complaining thsat those folks have too much, and they should share with those who do not....sends a very clear message to our children........it tells them to expect something for nothing.....because the mean old ricch people OWE us , somer of :what they got".......BULL#$##..............that thinking is wrong, morally , and constitutionally wrong..........I dont care who you are, you HAVE to agree with that .......I started this about guns.....so I leave it to a true patriot to say the following....

...."I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."-- Patrick Henry

[ironglow]

Ponydog;
  Great post..honest, insightful and to the point !

[powderman]

PONYDOG. Amen brother. 

[Matt]

Enough of the damn attacks...

Either find common ground and get along, debate in a civil manner on the topics you disagree on or just ignore those you don't like. But this BS of bashing on one another just because you have a difference of opinion is over. If you can not understand that we have a very diversified bunch of folks here with many many varying and even opposite views on damn near everything then grow the hell up and get over yourself. I know I am guilty of some myself and to those of you I jumped on I apologize. But enough is enough this forum has become nothing more than a pissing contest and I am damn tired of it.

How about lets get back to sharing knowledge and information that we have and not the BS of politics or religion which really has nothing to do with the reason every single one of you came to GBO in the first place...

Matt

[beemanbeme]

Excellent post, Ponydog!!!!!!!!!

I thought it was a pretty rousing thread myself. I didn't know that GB had said no politics and no religion.  Maybe we could discuss the calibre and ballistics of the weapons we would like to use on one another if it gets too intense.

A conservative is talking to the small daughter of an ultra liberal couple: "and what do you want to do when you grow up?"  "Oh, I want to buy houses for all the homeless folks", she replied.  "What a wonderful ambition", he said, "you can start now. Come over to my house and trim the grass around the flower beds and sweep the walks and I'll pay you $50.00 and then we can go down to the convenience store where that homeless guy hangs out and you can give it to him so he can make a start toward owning his own home."  The little girl stood in perplexed silence for a moment and then asked, "why doesn't the homeless man come to your house and do those things and earn the $50.00 himself?"  And the conservative replied, "welcome to the Republican Party."

[Graybeard]

I didn't know that GB had said no politics and no religion.

I have NOT said that. I have MANY TIMES said those are two topics I hate to see discussed other than face to face as both ALWAYS eventually lead to arguments, name calling and personal attacks when done other than face to face. It seems unavoidable if they are discussed via the internet.

We do actually have forums set up here specifically for discussion of both. The Pot Bellied Stove Forum isn't actually intended for discussion of either but then they are not prohibited here either as this is a pretty wide open most any topic type of forum. I'd really PREFER to see both topics discussed on the forums set up for those discussions but haven't said you can't talk them here.

Matt has weighted in as half owner of the site saying get your act together and stop the NAME CALLING and PERSONAL ATTACKS which everyone of you KNOW is against the GBO rules. Just stay within the rules and you can discuss most subjects here.