Shoot shoulders vs lungs on deer?

[upnorthbacon]

I'm going to be trying to fill a tag with a handgun this year for the first time ever.  I bought a .357 but I'm hoping to have a .41 mag by the season opener to use for whitetail.  I'm a long time rifle and bowhunter and killed a lot of deer, more with bow than gun.  I've always waited for a perfect broadside or slightly quartering shot with my bow and aimed behind the shoulder for a nice double lung pass through.  I usually wait for the same shot with a rifle, but on rare ocassions I've shot through a shoulder if I wasn't going to get a lung shot offered.  I'm usually concerned about meat so I tend to try not to hit the shoulders.  I hunt in MI and my blinds are set up near cedar swamps and some thick cover near bedding areas.  90% of the time a deer hit will run for the thick stuff making tracking difficult at times.  I also realize a deer hit, even by a solid double lung, can sometimes travel quite a distance.  I'm concerned about getting a good blood trail out of a double lung shot with a .357 or .41 (I'm fairly sure I'll have the .41 come season), especiallyh if I don't get an exit.  My other thought is shoot them right through the shoulders with a good cast bullet hoping to drop them or seriously hamper thier ability to make it very far.  I assume a lot of guys practice that since I hear a lot of stories about deer going down immediately or within a few steps.  I really don't want to try a neck or head shot, I'm sure I can make the shot, but I'd rather be safe with a larger target in case something goes wrong.  I'm planning on shooting 50yds which will likely be where the shots will present themselves and I'm more than confident I can place a good hit out to 75yds from my rest in my blind if needed.  I may be overreacting because I've never really seen a bloodtrail from a pistol, or the kind of damage a .357 or .41 can do, I just don't want to lose a deer.

[Graybeard]

Technically speaking deer don't exactly have "shoulders" at least not in the same sense as we humans do. Their front leg bones are not tied into their skeltal structure as ours are they are merely attached via muscle and tendons with no hard bone to bone connection. So it's not like you can break the joint of the shoulder as on a human and stop them. They can run quite well on three legs thank you so even if you put one of them out of commission it's no sweat for them to continue on three and in fact they can live a long and healthy life with only three legs.

The shot often called the high shoulder shot is really less a shoulder shot than a spine shot in reality. There is a magic spot up there high on what is generally called a deer's shoulder that catches the spine where it dips from the neck before heading up into the back to traverse the body. Hit there and it's instant lights out as that is a CNS shot really. Miss it high and there is another magic spot that has absolutely NOTHING of value to the deer and it might drop like lightning but then will be up and running very quickly and that's how a lot of folks lose deer they were sure were dead.

I am of the opinion that double lung shots are the smart shot to take. It's the largest target on the deer and no deer will go far with a hole thru both lungs no matter what put it there. Put that bullet low in the lungs and they bleed out even faster and leave more of a blood trail.

I claim no special knowledge of shooting deer with a .357 magnum as I've never shot a single one with it. Oh in my early handgun hunting days I did often carry a .357 Magnum S&W with me but never had the chance to use it on a deer and still haven't. I have far more appropriate in my eyes at least handguns for hunting use so pretty much never carry a .357 with the intention of actually using it on deer. I do carry a 3" S&W Model 60 with me most of the time when hunting but it's not for the deer that I have it with me. I'd give it a try if I ever had the chance on one inside of 25 yards most likely just to see how it worked but so far that's not happened when I had it with me. If I'm strictly handgun hunting it often stays home but it's always with me if rifle hunting.

Jerry Lester is our resident expert on the use of the .357 Magnum on deer. He has taken in excess of 50 with it I think. He recommends using a Remington 158 grain JSP pushed to about max velocity and says it works very well on them. Regardless tho of whether you use a JSP, JHP or cast bullet I'd suggest you treat it as a loud bow and take the same kinda shots you'd take with your bow althou you should be able to add a bit more range using it than the bow.

[upnorthbacon]

Thanks, I assumed a good double lung would be the way to go.  I've read a lot of posts of deer only going 20-30 yards after being hit with a handgun and it got me thinking that maybe guys are shooting them through the front end.  I know years ago my Dad and uncles would rifle shoot deer through the front shoulders.  I know in most cases that shot broke the bones in the shoulders and they seemed to lose the use of thier front legs all together and would run wildly using thier back legs and flopping around.  They all use 270's as well which may account for the serious damage done.  Since our deer herd has basically been eradicated thanks to the magical "TB" that the DNR seems to think all the deer have (Don't get me started that's a whole other issue!) in northern MI we are really careful at selecting which deer to harvest and where to shoot them to save as much meat as possible.

[Ken ONeill]

Lungs.

[Graybeard]

I've shot about as many deer with handguns as I have rifles more or less. In my experience over all I think my handgun shot deer have fallen closer to where they stood than my rifle shot deer have. None really went all that far shot with either. I guess the longest distance traveled for a recovered deer was 200-250 yards or so. I've had one shot with a .30-06 and one shot with a .44 magnum go about that far. For the most part the rest lung or heart shot were dropped within 100 yards or less most much less really.

[Redhawk1]

With your 357 Mag, just go for a double lung shot, use the 357 Mag as you would a bow. Short distance and good shot placement. Stay off the (shoulder) If you want to assure a exit hole, use a good hard cast bullet in the 158 plus range.  JMHO.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill take up the other side. With a rifle i shoot for a lung shot. It kills fairly quick and doent ruin meat. If for some reason i need to dump it in its tracks i take a shoulder shot. With a bow its allways a lung shot as i dont trust an arrow to break bone. With a cast bullet out of a rifle or a handgun i will allways try to get a shoulder shot. It dumps them alot quicker and does very little meat damage. Same with bear or bigger animals. I dont want to track a bear wounded through the swamp. I want him laying wear i shot him. A double shoulder shot with a cast bullet will do that every time. With jacketed handgun bullets i go with lung shots as you cant count on them to bust through both shoulders.

[Redhawk1]

Lloyd, I agree, but I was just looking at what he said he was going to use, the 357 Mag. Now with a good load and heavy bullets in my 45 Colt and above, I would not hesitate to take out the shoulder.

[One Eye]

No real need to "shoot for bone" on deer.  They die rather easily if they are shot in both lungs.  I too have killed more deer with a bow than gun, but I always shoot for the lungs with my guns.
Dan

[Redhawk1]

The reason I like to shoot for the shoulder is, where I hunt, if the deer makes it into the marsh you most likely will not recover your deer. A lung shot deer can, but not always make in a good bit of distance before it expires when lung shot. Take out lungs  with a shoulder shot is in my opinion a good way to keep them from going to be and there is a possibility of a follow up shot to keep them in eye sight.  But that is just my opinion and what I like to do.

[upnorthbacon]

I'm curious would a 41 mag with a cast bullet have enough energy to pass through both shoulders or even a 44 mag for that matter?

[Lloyd Smale]

a 41 or 44 with a good hardcast bullet at any speed near a 1000 fps would probably shoot through 2 deers shoulders. If i was to hunt with a 357 id use a hardcast bullet and probably a heavy one like a good flat nosed 180 grain and shoot it at the highest velocity i  could  and id be completely confident it would shoot through the shoulders of a deer and probably would do the same on a black bear or hog.

[GregP42]

I'm curious would a 41 mag with a cast bullet have enough energy to pass through both shoulders or even a 44 mag for that matter?

upnorthbacon,

The .41 if loaded right has more than enough power to punch through a deer. You can shoot a hardcast boolit through a bull with one.

Greg

[Glanceblamm]

I agree with the lungs and like to play the angles...last years .44 slug went in in front of the left shoulder and exited behind the right shoulder.
Two more caught direct hits in the center of the chest from straight on and I had one classical broadside placing the bullet just behind the shoulder.

[Cottonwood]

This year will be my first year hunting fulltime with a handgun, but as Bill explained I will be taking shots where I would have with an arrow while bowhunting for heart/lung shots as I do not like to waste good meat if I can keep from it.

[rimfire]

My $0.01 worth...most of my hunting buddies shoot behind the front leg and trail their deer 50 yards minimum.  I shoot straight up the middle of the front leg half way up the body from bottom to top.  At least 3/4 of the deer I shoot there drop immediately and the ones that run never go farther than 20-30 yards with a gun.  The ribs are larger and closer together farther forward in the chest and the spine dips down lower.  While I seldom hit the spine it seems to be close enough, or the ribs create enough shock that it tends to drop them quick.  I have experience shooting them there with 20 and 12 bore slugs, .308, 50 cal ML with saboted 44 bullets, 7-30 Waters handgun, .41 mag, and .44 mag and the farthest I have trailed one in 20 years hit there is a doe last year that surprised me and went about 60 yards from a .41. 

I hate trailing deer and I will continue to shoot them there as long as it works.  I hate watching them run out of sight with a bow.  I find them...but I still hate it! 

[jhalcott]

  I HATE to go hunting with a gun that I was NOT familiar with. It sounds as though you will NOT get much, if any, practice with the .41 THIS year. So I'd opt for the .357 and good bullets with a lot of practice.

[warrior1]

i've wanted to use my 357 with 170 gr hardcast,just that i cannot justify leaving the 40s behind.

[Badnews Bob]

.357s loaded with 180grain hardcast bullets will pass right on thru both shoulders on a deer and drive itself into the ground or tree or what ever is behind the deer. ( be aware of your back stops) I really enjoy hunting with my .357s and have never felt under gunned.

BTW as to your question I prefer double lung shots. Mostly because it is the easiest to make a good hit on the vitals there and I've never had to track one more than 100 yards.

[jthomast]

a 41 or 44 with a good hardcast bullet at any speed near a 1000 fps would probably shoot through 2 deers shoulders. If i was to hunt with a 357 id use a hardcast bullet and probably a heavy one like a good flat nosed 180 grain and shoot it at the highest velocity i  could  and id be completely confident it would shoot through the shoulders of a deer and probably would do the same on a black bear or hog.

               what mr  smale said

[upnorthbacon]

  I HATE to go hunting with a gun that I was NOT familiar with. It sounds as though you will NOT get much, if any, practice with the .41 THIS year. So I'd opt for the .357 and good bullets with a lot of practice.

I'm LEO, I've been shooting handguns for years, and besides our 4 shoots a year with our dept, I still shoot about once a month.  Lately I've been shooting a lot of long range 300-500 yard stuff with my .204 (On a side note my cheapo Remington sps varmint will hold 4" at 450 yards consistently, which is pretty decent for a budget gun!)  Before I open a can of worms I am not claiming my dept shoots or long range rifle shooting is realistic practice for handgun hunting!  I do believe, however, shooting different handguns still requires the same technique, sight alignment, trigger control, grip, etc.  I will absolutely shoot the 41 and make sure I feel confident or I'll have to wait until next year.  I'm still debating using the 357, haven't decided yet.   I would never attempt to take an animal if I were not confident I could make a quick clean kill.  I've been hunting for 20 years now and the only deer I made a bad hit on was my first deer at 12 years old, with a bow.  I hit her too far back and got liver but still recovered her.  I've passed on many a deer and sometimes unfortunately a few decent bucks because I didn't want to take a chance.  I still have over 2 months before rifle/handgun season opens in MI so I have plenty of time to practice, I should be picking up the .41 in the next two weeks.  My hope is to get the kill on video with the wifey filming, if it happens I'll post it up for everyone to see, including the damage to the deer before and after caping it out, should be pretty informative for everyone.  Hopefully it works out and I'll have something to give back to the forums too!

[nilescoyote]

Aim for the forward 1/3rd of the chest cavity and center mass. Ive have taken many deer this way through both lungs and some times the upper heart. No deer has gone further for me than 20 yards.  I use either a 44mag or 45 colt and in all but one case the lungs and heart where such a mess of goo that you could not find either on field dressing. The 41 is a fine cartridge and just as effective as what Im using. 

[upnorthbacon]

Thanks for all the info from everyone, I decided to keep the 357 for coyote and real close shots.  I broke down today and took the .41 off layaway and bought a TC Contender in 30-30.  I'm definately more confident with the Contender and I already mounted one of my red dots on it.  Next year I'll likely scope it.  I was hoping to shoot one up close with more of an actual "handgun" rather than a contender.  I'm being kind of lazy in that I want to pistol hunt from my normal rifle blind.  Shots from there will likely be 60-70 yards and I'm confident I can take a deer at that range with the contender (And yes I will be heading out practicing to make sure).  Next year I'm going to do a little more scouting and try and find a couple good places where I can shoot 20-40 yards and try and take one with a wheelgun too!

[GradyL41]

A.41 cal and certainly larger-- will shoot very easily through deers shoulders as has been stated-- and from the comments made so will the .357 -- never tried that-- I turned down a shot at the top of a ridge with a hot loaded .45 colt as even in the deep woods I did not feel right about the shot -- all of sudden the critter turned and ran down to the right and just after that another hunter walked over the ridge -- he did not see the deer or me and had I shot the bullet would not have stayed in the deer from any angle -- I would not have hurt him but it was way too close to have shot-- I have always been glad I did not shoot--btw now all I own are .41s--from 50 yards a .41 240-255 will go through 18" of wet newspaper-- I collect the local ad papers in their own plastic sleve --wet them and look at the tearing in the plastic as well as the paper and the over all pent. That is more than enough for deer.

[Cayoot]

So upnorthbacon, which .41 Mag did you wind up getting?

Which gunshop did you purchase it at?  Do you live in Northern Mi or just come up here to hunt? (I'm in the U.P. and just curious.)

[blhof]

I've taken Louisiana deer with a 357 and 180gr cast at 30 to 50 yds with complete pass through and most dropped on the spot. I also shot the high shoulder because of the possibility of a swamp loss.  The few that traveled left a good blood trail and didn't travel far.  The 41 would make an even bigger hole with more trauma and shock.

[Lloyd Smale]

this is good advice for the guy that is handgunning for the first time or a guy that isnt a dedicated handgunner. I like to pratice toward season with the gun im going to use. Its more of a mental thing with me as it gives me confidence in the gun. In all reality though i could probably grab any handgun in the safe the day before season and go and kill a deer. 99 percent of handgun shooting is trigger control and ill even expand that to say that it is 99 percent of all shooting. If you develope good triggrer control you can pick up about any gun and shoot it well.

  I HATE to go hunting with a gun that I was NOT familiar with. It sounds as though you will NOT get much, if any, practice with the .41 THIS year. So I'd opt for the .357 and good bullets with a lot of practice.

[Larry Gibson]

I agree with Lloyd, Redhawk1 and several others; the shoulder shot (that's the common name but really you are shooting through the leg.) is the best. When I aim I envision a soccor ball laying low in the forward part of the chest cavity.  I put the bullet through the soccor ball regardless of the angle. This puts the bullet low through the heart/lung area. It also, on broadside shots, means breaking one or both legs.  On the classic standing broadside shot the point of aim would be about 1/3 the way up the leg (shoulder) from the bottom of the brisket. Deer shot through the heart/lung (most of the main arteries are concentrated there) and with at least 1 broken leg do not go far if at all.  On the other hand, double lung shot deer can run a very long way and get into some very thick stuff before laying down to die. I'm talking with handguns here and rifles with velocities under 2000 fps. Many years ago after losing one deer and having a hard time finding a few deer (the rain in the PNW washes sign away really fast) that I shot "behind the shoulder" (double lung) I switched to the "shoulder shot" (as I described above).  Since then I've killed a lot of deer with handgun and rifle and have not had any deer go farther than about 50 yards.  Most all were down within 10 yards of the shot. The one that traveled th farthest was with a soft cast bullet out of a M94 30-30 at 2000 fps MV.  The deer (nice blacktail) was quartering away and the bullet entered behind the close leg, went through the left lobe of the lung, cliped the left edge of the heart and exited through the right front brisket.  It was easy to track as there was a very good blood trail.  It was dead when I found it a very short time after the shot.  Actually the very first deer I shot with a handgun (.38 Special M&P with 6" barrel with Peters 158 RNs) was with such a shot into the heart/lung area.  The bullet went through the heart and lodged in the offside leg. She died within a few steps.  That was back when I was 12 years old and hadn't read all the experts to know that a .38 special wouldn't kill anything.

The .357 will do nicely on deer. I suggest the 125 HPs for use in 4" barrels or less and the 150-158s in 6" plus barrels.  I also prefer an expanding bullet but the hardcast SWC with the above shot kill cleanly.  I have used the .41 magnum (other cartridges too) since the mid '70s.  I've killed deer with 4", 6" and 7 1/2" barreled revolvers.  I prefer the longer barrels and now use a Ruger Bisley with 7 1/2" barrel.  The 210 gr XTP, Sieera 210 HC or hardcast RCBS 41-210-SWC at 1450 fps kills deer cleanly and almost always penetrates compleately through on any broadside shot, even when breaking both legs.  Out of 4" barrels the same loads will do nicely but I'd restrict shots to under 50 yards or go to the faster stepping 170 gr HC (personal chioce based on observation or terminal ballistics) .

Larry Gibson

[Autorim]

I go along with rimfire and Larry Gibson. Finn Aagaard wrote about this better than anybody. If you align the sights so that the bullet path is directly between the front legs regardless of shooting angle you will hit the heart lung area and all of the major blood vessels at the top of the heart if you hold about half way up.

If you look closely at anatomy when you field dress a deer, the lungs are relatively small and are far forward. A hit too far back, will only catch the rear of the lungs and the liver and can make for a long tracking job. On a broadside shot, if you are aligned with the leg and halfway up, the bullet will likely pass through the shoulder muscles and not hit the shoulder or leg bones.

Any game animal hit in the top of the heart lung area with any bullet, expanding or not will not travel far. Finn wrote that lots of American hunters who are accustomed to expanding bullets tend to shoot too far behind the front shoulder. African hunters learned to shoot solids and had to hit the heart lung area and shot for "grapefruit suspended between the front legs."

Tip: When my son's and their friends were old enough to hunt and even before, I cut a hole about 1.5 inches in diameter in a piece of cardboard and taped a "crosshair" of black thread across it. We would sit for hours - looking at outdoor magazines while he placed his crosshair on the game pictures. They learned to place the crosshair on the "grapefruit between the front legs" regardless of the angle of the shot. I will now start this exercise with my 6 year old grandson. I see lots of photos in ads in hunting publications that show the crosshairs nearly in the middle of the game animal.

If you can find a copy, buy Finn's book - Aagaard's Africa - and turn to page 77.

Autorim

[buck460XVR]

 They learned to place the crosshair on the "grapefruit between the front legs" regardless of the angle of the shot.

good tip.......knowing the anatomy of the animal you hunt is critical for proper shot placement.


I think many folk get used to centering the crosshairs on the front shoulders and pull the trigger. With most modern day rifle cartridges this works well on deer sized game....a few inches high or wide doesn't generally matter as the shock and the expansion of the bullet does enough damage to the vitals or breaks both front shoulders making retrieval easy. I found out years ago it don't work so well for deer with a bow......and learned to pick a precise spot to aim for. Not only did it improve my accuracy, but it made me think about my arrow placement before I let fly. I use my open sighted handguns  the same way....depending on the angle, I pick out a spot on the crease behind the front leg or if they're really close a particular patch of hair.....and I think of what lies behind that spot before I pull the trigger.