2 ammo incidents

[tanoose]

I had two problems over the weekend shooting my Ruger super redhawk in 454 7 1/2" First to say i have shot several boxes of winchester,federal hornady and my favorite the buffalobore 360 grain,with NEVER any problems. This weekend i tried two new factory .
1st was a 50 round box from wisconsin cartridge corp using hoirnady 300 gr xtp they advertise this load at 1550 fps.I only fired 15 rounds and had 3 misfires , two of which fired on the second try and the third wouldn't fire at all . Date on the box was March 2008
2nd problem was i wanted to try a box of Double Tap Ammunition they seem to push all there ammo to max saami specks.It was a  box of 20 with 400 grainWFNGC advertised velocity at 1400fps in a 7.5" barrel Very accurate and no problems til my 17th shot, after that i couldn't turn the cylinder as the last two cartridges had jumped the crimp and walked out to jam the cylinder.I tapped the bullets in to remove them from the cylinder and disgarded them.I am about to e-mail both companies with my complaints , but i 1st wanted to share my experience with you all. Later Tanoose

[shermbob]

Both companys will probabully want the bad shells and the lot numbers from the boxs. Had a problem with win 454s 4/5 yrs ago but got rid or them so when they got around to me and sent a shipping label I had nothing to send.
shermbobn

[His lordship.]

With this posting of problems with 2 American ammo makers, plus the prior CCI Blazer, and my Winchester squib load, I am to the point that I strongly prefer imported ammo.

I have extensive education and industry experience and have felt for along time that the American companies place a value on hiring people for social reasons, how well they would like to have a beer with them, over their qualifications for the job.  The Europeans and Japanese for example, value education.  This might be where there is a problem with the reputation of American made products.  If in doubt, read the business periodicals and consumer sentiments.     

I still like American made guns.  I bought 4 Sturm Ruger guns over the last year, they shoot great.  And a new Smith and Wesson, no complaints with it either.

[Ak.Hiker]

Bullets jumping the crimp can be a problem with the 454. That is why Buffalo Bore does not push their loading to max. When I carry my 454 for protection in the field I like the Winchester 300 grain flat point, Buffalo Bore 325 grain cast, or the Hornady 300 grain Mag Tip XTP. I have never had any of these three loads jump. The Winchester 300 grain is the Freedom Arms original loading. For me that is hard to beat. For my practise loads I like the 300 grain Sierra loaded to 1400 or so. I would think that Mike at DT would replace his ammo. He may need to make an adjustment to his loading. Pushing loads to the max is not always in the best interest of the shooter or the gun.

[Glanceblamm]

The enclosed picture shows some (Gun Show) bulllets that my Daughter and her boyfriend bought for me. They ask if I wanted anything so I just gave them a brand + caliber, diameter, and weight for bullets only. They got confused on this so just bought me a 20pack of live ammo from a proprieter who loads bullets from the .17 to the .458 using new componets.

I zoomed this picture the best that I could but you may need to move it to your explorer or media center so you can get a good look at those primers. I have never seen the likes of these as most all had small dents and scratches in them and others appear to be concave on top like they were slightly crushed. One thing is for sure, I would never take these hunting and would not be suprised if there is a misfire among them. I realize that this is not factory ammo but could qualifiy as New factory from an outfit that is just starting out.

[buck460XVR]

IIRC, wisconsin cartridge corp is just a guy that reloads in his home and sells at gun shows. Have talked to him several times in the past at various gun shows. I know he takes used brass in trade for loaded ammo.......

[Mikey]

glance - fyi, those will probably shoot ok for you.  I've seen lots of primers like that, scratched and partially dented and the like - I get those on occasion from having something (dirt, crud or something) on the priming ram.  They just look funky, that's all. 

But this is a good caveat for lots of shooters in that there will be misfires or duds with some ammo, and when youconsider the sheer number of loaded rounds produced in this country every year I am really surprised we don't hear about squib or dud loads more often, and for many different reasons. 

As to that gun show ammo that was purchased for you - we have a couple of 'firms' or businesses that load/reload locally and sometimes you see exactly what you have in the picture sitting right on top of their table.  And yes, these folk will take fired brass and reload them as 'new', or new to them that is, and yes, you will see primers that look exactly like that, too. 

The type of ammo incident I really do not like is the 'primer only' discharge in a rifle barrel - takes a bit of effort to get the bullet out........ Mikey.

[Glanceblamm]

As to that gun show ammo that was purchased for you - we have a couple of 'firms' or businesses that load/reload locally and sometimes you see exactly what you have in the picture sitting right on top of their table.  And yes, these folk will take fired brass and reload them as 'new', or new to them that is, and yes, you will see primers that look exactly like that, too.

Mine has been the (not so odd?) distinction of never having taken any of the large game with a factory round but with reloads instead. My handgun hunting experience has been very light but I have taken four deer in the same amount of years with five shots fired (read one miss). 22years of traditional muzzleloading hunting was also done with balls that I always cast myself and my Coyotes have also all been taken with reloads since day one.

Back To The Subject Though...
The gunshow ammo can be almost as cheap as buying all of the componets to produce a handload.
The Pro's are that it can be a good way to obtain brass and the Con's are that sometimes you will find three different brands of brass in a 100rd package. I have a very few lots of this mixed stuff and use it strictly for plinking but have to admit that it does well at the reasonable handgun ranges of 35 to 50yds. I have not seen primers that appeared this beat up before recieving the small lot in the picture though. I have also bought new primed brass (noting that the brand of brass was all the same) but like to load these light so as to free up the brass and get away from that unfamilure primer.

I was at a gunshow recently in Indianapolis, Indiana recently and it was very good on the whole...I did find it somewhat distressing that there seemed to be a lot less tables that had new brass for reloading. There was a bunch of tables that had this preloaded ammo in the plastic bags in all calibers, there was more than you could shake a stick at for sure but the thought did cross my mind that as reloaders, we were becoming an endangered species!. This may be because of the bulk brass sales that can be found on the Internet.

[Mikey]

glance - I would consider it quite a distinction having taken all your game with handloads or slugs you have cast out yourself.

And I hear ya on the guns show issues too.  I love a good show but they are down sizing in my area due to local ordinances and laws regulating mil-surp and semi-auto sales - buncha hooey if ya ask me.  Anyway, I am glad, very glad for the internet and component sales therefrom - it is nice to know you are getting new brass rather than something that just looks good, and I hate tha plastic bag nonsense.

Interesting note about 'endangered species' - we keep rearing our ugly heads on a regular basis regardless of how inexpensive reloaded ammo gets.  I always wondered why a local reloaders load of 15 gn of 2400 in a 357 smoked more than my load of 15 gn of 2400 under the same boolet, but I doubt I will ever know..........................Mikey.

[Glanceblamm]

glance - I would consider it quite a distinction having taken all your game with handloads or slugs you have cast out yourself

This was a necessity thing as at that time the Wife & I were raising a young family. My first Varmint outfit was a used Rem 788 in the .22-250 and our budget only allowed
Me seven boxes (140rds) to be fired within the first seven months of that purchase! These were all carefully fired at paper at various ranges to give me a feel for my first centerfire.
And what I could expect out of it for the Fox or our (newly arrived) Coyotes. Then one day a guy gave me a midsouth shooters supply mag and I got a very reasonable price on a reloading outfit that met out budget. Heck...I even came away with a Leupold Golden ring scope in a fixed 12X...around $175.00 (tax included) at that time I believe
By month 9 I was reloading with the help of a couple of locals (and Jim Carmichael) and by month 11 (Nov) was taking those predators with it.

I had cheated myself out of four years of Deer hunting in those days because I never tryed a shotgun (four or five used, some just to borrow) that was accurate enough to consider taking. I know that there was, and still is some good smooth bore slug guns out there (specially those short barreled brownings) but I was never fortunate enough to own one.
Enough was Enough though as In 81' I purchased a T/C Hawken in a .50 cal and was all set. The patched ball accuracy with 80gr FFg still remains to be a tack driver and I have got a lot of kills with it. It didn't take me long to pick up one of those (leaky-Lee) production pots and a couple molds then I was really set.

The above was a tooth & claw battle for sure as one has to consider the right (budget quality) equipment and still come away with it being dependable & accurate.
The Wife was supportive and understanding through these times because she knew that I gave the family top priority on food & clothing. Sometimes this just would not allow for any factory ammo to be purchased although I always had a fair amount of rimfire ammo along with shotgun shells for the small game around.

Things get better as the years go by of course as your initial investments dwindle down as you start zapping the mortgage and the vehicles that you have to trade are not beaters anymore and the kids are gone with College expenses being taken care of. The Reloading & Molding just wont go away though...It is a disease I tell you...It makes you do weird stuff like Uniforming primer pockets and flash holes along with keeping the necks turned and the case trimmed, chamfered, and gleaming. I Don't Thing That I Would Have It Any other Way!
I am still below speed on molds & equipment for the handguns. The bargin brand hard cast have been great for plinking and I am using XTP's as a comparison (also for hunting to date).
I would like to correct this soon. Please send one Star Lube/sizer and an LBT mold if you have one just sitting around

[Mikey]

Yes, the Disease...the worst part is the flash holes.  You know it has you bad when every flash hole you see lacks roundness and uniformity, ahhhhhhhhhhh it hurts. 

I can remember trying to reload on an unheated back porch with my loading press clamped to a windowsill and watching the entire back wall flex whenever I put too much pressure on the ram.  There were times it would get so cold I was afraid the powder would not meter properly or that the temperature or humidity would affect the powder charges and my home cast boolets would land five feet from the barrel...... 

The only advice I would offer is to never try and develop a wildcat cartridge when nobody offers bullets in that bore size.  I can provide however that a melting pot on the back porch was pretty good at keeping my hands warm - my wife wouldn't let me cast boolets on the stove in the kitchen (smart girl) because of the fumes and stink, but the back porch was ok - even at zero below.............

I still have many of the guns I bought back then - they were budget items, nothing special, and I used them a lot.  I still use them and often think about how long I have had them and some of the shots I have made with them and how hard I tried to make some game meat palatable enough for the table, but time wore on and things got better to a degree and I learned how to cook game meat................and hunin' season is comin' up pretty soon too.......... Mikey.

[Gun 4 Fun]

Howdy!

Alot of times when you see primers in that condition, it's because the primer pocket was dirty enough to prevent the primer from seating properly without slightly crushing it. When I get lazy and don't clean the primer pockets on my own loads, I get the same results. Still over the years I've learned that as long as the "crush" isn't excessive there won't be any problems. I even hunt with loads like that and the deer have never seemed to mind or even noticed that the primer that started the whole event that ended their days of searching for food, was dented.

[Glanceblamm]

Howdy!

Alot of times when you see primers in that condition, it's because the primer pocket was dirty enough to prevent the primer from seating properly without slightly crushing it. When I get lazy and don't clean the primer pockets on my own loads, I get the same results. Still over the years I've learned that as long as the "crush" isn't excessive there won't be any problems. I even hunt with loads like that and the deer have never seemed to mind or even noticed that the primer that started the whole event that ended their days of searching for food, was dented.

I did shoot these twenty rounds as I was interested in the short lot of the brass for load development. Two of these had enough (dent induced cratering) of the primer that the cratering would hang up within the frame effectively locking up the cylinder!...the cylinder had to be removed to free it up and I did salvage the brass by lightly touching the high point of the crater with a needle file just enough for the cylinder to rotated. Both of these did go off but I considered my actions to be somewhat of a dumb stunt least the primer blow out.

[Gun 4 Fun]

Glad  your o.k. From the sounds of what you just described-"having to file the primer a little" I'd say that what I previously posted was right on. It sounds like the primers weren't seated deeply enough which caused them to rub on the standing breech [firewall]. If the pockets were dirty and they didn't get the primers seated all the way, I'm willing to bet that they "crushed" or "dented" them in the process, creating a high primer condition, causing the gun to tie-up. Good luck.

[corbanzo]

When I first started reloading, I had the same problem with my lee turret press, the problem being, I would give a little too much pressure, and the design of the press and seating tool would let it push too hard, even though the pockets were well cleaned, and entry was smooth.  After switching to a hand primer, I have never had a problem with a dented primer or flattened primers, much better feel with a hand primer.  Sometimes when using a progressive press as a small company loader might use, I could see them using too much lever pressure and causing this too happen.  I agree that a dirty pocket could have cause it, but I also think the pocket doesn't have to be dirty to go too hard on a primer.

[williamlayton]

Wemmen are just a sorry lot and have no understanding.
Mine is real lucky I let her stay around---that hen.
Blessings