The Cortez Gun-or not? (short article)

[cannonmn]

I wrote an article by this title and posted it on this forum in case you are interested.  You have to go to the site, then click on the red square at bottom of the homepage to get to the forum as guest.  I haven't found any more direct route or I'd give you a link to it.  Bronze guns recovered from EL CAZADOR recently are mentioned and pictured in the article.

http://military-historians.org/

[dan610324]

by the shape of the muzzle I would guess 17th century , maybe early 18th century .
but 15th century ??

ABSOLUTELY NOT

[cannonmn]

Thanks Dan. 

One of the posts I made in that article contains a "babelfish" online translation of a Spanish-language article on Falconete and Pedrero.  The English translation that website provided said the guns were put on huts and that they wear panties.  Somehow I think something was lost in translation.

[dan610324]

ok I will look here in sweden to see if there is any guns with panties   

[EL Caz 66]

Cannonmn,

Can you post pictures of the Pedereo recovered from El Cazador here? Could also show better pictures of the carriage she was mounted on, from those in the souvenir shop? Would mind telling me what was the asking price  for her.

Ed

[cannonmn]

Here's the slideshow that has all the photos I took.  It is on an improper type carriage, one obviously made up for display.  The shop owner wanted $50K for it, but if I paid cash it would be a bit less or something like that.  A friend of mine who owns a few of them told me that was over 3 times what he would consider paying for one.  Two of them from the seven on El Caz went up for auction in New York last Jan. and only brought about $12K each.  They were in same condition as the one in the shop.  I mighta paid that but I didn't know about the auction.  I don't like auctions anyway, I much prefer finding stuff in garages and basements, or maybe even in stores.

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums%2020/?action=view&current=913df532.pbw

[EL Caz 66]

Thanks for posting the pictures, I realize that the carriage is improper for this gun but found it interesting. I also hate auctions, but If I knew these cannons were up auction here in New York, I would payed the $12K for one in that condition.

[cannonmn]

After many postings on the CMH site, I've pretty much wrapped up my little investigation of "The Cortez Gun."  In summary, in my opinion, the Spanish Royal Coat of Arms cast into the gun is that of either Phillip V or a later monarch.  The key point here is the four-arc top of the "closed crown," which as best I can determine, was first used by Spain in the year 1700.

[Bob Smith]

Cannonmn,
I certainly agree with you on the dating; I was asked about this gun 5 years ago by a colleague and I came to the same conclusions, using much the same guns in the Madrid collection. However I went on the patterns of the guns rather than the arms and it was clear from the dated Spanish examples, as well as bronze breechloading swivels from Dutch and Portuguese wrecks of the late 17th and 18th centuries that this gun resembled these examples rather than the 16th century bronze swivels. I am not surprised the Museum was not happy with my results- everyone wants the earliest example, not just another swivel gun. But it did make me look harder at the whole range of bronze breechloaders and I did work it up into a published article, so that the exercise did have a positive outcome.

Bob Smith

[dan610324]

where can I read that article ??

[Bob Smith]

'Bronze breech-loading swivel guns, A preliminary study’ A Farewell to Arms, Studies on the history of arms and armour. Liber Amicorum Jan-Piet Puype. Legermuseum, Delft, 2004

Includes examples a colleague sent from Sweden

Bob Smith

[Bob Smith]

Should have said there are more details here: http://www.legermuseum.nl/legermuseum.nl/legermuseum.nl/i000318.html

Although it was produced by the Dutch Legermuseum, the whole book is in English.

In addition, one of my articles on 16th century bronze breechloaders is available online here: http://www.ucm.es/BUCM/revistas/amm/02148765/articulos/MILT9595110197A.PDF

Bob Smith

[cannonmn]

Thanks Bob, very interesting article.

BTW, after my uncomfortable immersion in Spanish heraldry, I posted some info on the CMH site which I soon realized was inaccurate.  The cannon marking using varous crowns did not follow the "official" dates of introduction for new COA's, because when I checked surviving 17th C. examples, I found a transition point that lies somewhere between 1628 and 1673, as opposed to the 1700 date indicated by the heraldry information.

[Bob Smith]

I always try to avoid heraldry as my main evidence - it is too hedged round with caveats. That's why I prefer toargue from canon from dated contexts; either from shipwrecks or dated examples
Bob Smith