Ideal Long Range Cartridge For The Contender / G-2?

[xphunter]

I would like to hear each of your thoughts of what you would pick as the "Ideal Cartridge" for a Contender/G-2? for LR shooting. This is for target not hunting on steel or paper without needing to knock over steel (group shooting). Maximum range would be 880 yards, with most shooting done from 300-700 yards. I would also like to hear your suggestions on types of fore-ends/grips and the type of rest you would use. I will be purchasing a G-2 this year (It has been about 6 years since I have owned a TC product). Standard or wildcat chambering. Feel free to even mention the brand of barrel, twist, type of dies, and even potential weight/brand of bullets you would use.
Looking forward to your input.
Ernie

[contendernut]

My picks would be:

30 Alaskan Bower
6.5 Super
7mm Super

[xphunter]

To date, I have recieved a number of responses (since I posted this on several forums) of what folks consider the ultimate long range cartridge(s) for the Contender/G-2.
In the 22 centerfire I have 223 Imp. and 222 Rem Mag. Imp. both of which are suggesting a 1-7 or 1-8 twist to shoot the heavier VLD bullets.
Not recieved any 6mm or 25 cartridges.
In the 6.5's the 6.5 Super Bower and 6.5x50R Bellm.
In 7mm the 7x30 Waters and the 7mm Super Bower.
No 27's have been mentioned
In 30 caliber we have the 30-30 AI, 30 Bellm, and the 30 Alaskan (307 Win. Imp.).
So far, it seems that the Bower line of cartridges with the 30 Alaskan being mentioned more and the 222 Rem. Mag. Imp. have been mentioned the most.  I actually thought someone might mention the 250 Savage AI built off of the 307 Win case as a possibility.
Are there any others that you think should make the list?
Like to hear from you.

Ernie

[Questor]

I don't know, but I'd look at cartridges that are capable of firing these new Nosler bonded bullets with the super high ballistic coefficients.

[xphunter]

I think the  30 caliber is .588 BC.  That is pretty amazing.  I haven't tried any yet but will consider using them for hunting in my XP-100's.  I know these were not designed for target shooting, but if they work as good or better who cares.
Clinch River makes some great bullets and the Carturuchio's (spelling?) are great too, not to mention that SMK's are still winning alot @ 1,000 yard comp.

When it comes to hunting the big question is what velocity spread will "X-brand" bullet have, and then, does your specialty handgun at the ranges you intend to shoot it fall into that spread.

Ernie

[ShootnStr8]

xphunter,

I was suprised that the JD Jones wildcats weren't on your list but perhaps one would be the ticket.   The 309 reportedly pushes 165s at 2400.  The 375 can lob a 220 at 2250.  And JD claims, "The 257 gets up to 2900 FPS with an 85 grain to make it the most effective long range varmint caliber for Contenders, and the same load is excellent for whitetail and antelope."  

I've thought it would be nice to buy a 309 barrel for the Contender some day. But on the other hand it may be just as well to get a 308 or even a 7-08 in an Encore.  

Blessings!

ShootnStr8

[xphunter]

ShootnStr8,
For some reason no one has mentioned JD's rounds till now.   I wouldn't consider the 375 JDJ to be a contender out to a half of a mile but his 225 wildcats should be in there.  Isn't it great that we have the choice of frame size, weight, barrel length, and a larger number of catrridges for our sport?

[Jay HHI6818]

Hi Xphunter,
 Is your mind made up on the G2??? Why not an Encore and go with JD Jones. 6.5 MD??

The 6.5 Mini-Dreadnought is a short necked 60 degree shoulder 220 swift case. (Ditto the 257M-D.) It easily does 2800 FPS with a 120 and 2700 FPS with a 140 in the Encore.

The Hornady 140 gr. A-Max or the Sierra 140,142 or 155 gr bullets with there high B.C.'s

[KYODE]

hey xp, do you have any thoughts on the suitability of the 30-30AI at long range, or REALLY long range targets. i'm getting a chronographed 2588fps with 130gr hornady sspb's. havn't tried 150's yet, but i think i have data around 2400fps or a little better.
i'd love to do that stuff with you guys, if i was to win the lottery or something. maybe the old woman will take up long range handguns. :shock:  nahhh! i'd be more likely to win the lottery.

[xphunter]

Jay HHI6818,
A similar question was asked on another forum.  Hopefully my response there will answer your question.  If not, let me know and I will give it another whirl.

Jay asked:
"Is your mind made up on the G2??? Why not an Encore and go with JD Jones. 6.5 MD??"
 
Ernie wrote earlier:
"Point well taken. I have 3 custom center-grip XP-100's with SS barrels which do the job quite nicely. Two of the three (284 Win. & 7.82 Patriot--15 3/4 barrels) were built with hunting in mind in the mountains and the third (6.5-284) was built for bench shooting and or stand hunting at lower elevations. The first two are Shilen select match tight neck chambered XP's (sporter taper) and the third is a Krieger barrel (heavy taper) which is also tight-neck. The Contender/G-2 is a smaller frame, light weight specialty handgun which of course cannot handle the pressures of the XP's, my MOA (260 & 22-250 AI--14 inch barrels), or the Encore. My curiosity and desire is to consider what especially the G-2 can do @ these ranges in spite of having to shoot cartridges @ a level that is within it's ability safely. I want to find the best catridge(s) for the Contender/G-2 and herald those cartridges for those who will only use a Contender/G-2 and have no intention of buying and Encore or other types of stronger action. On top of that what is even more fun will be to take a Contender/G-2 and then see how close you can be competitive with with actions that are noticeably stronger."

Jay,
Personally, if I were to use an Encore I would stick with the 6.5-284 since brass & dies are readily available and are of better quality since the 6.5-284 is being used so much for thousand yard competition.  If, I went with a wildcat in 6.5, the 6.5x307 Imp (6.5 Super Bower) which has really strong brass and a rimmed case would likely be my personal choice.  No doubt the 6.5 Mini-Dreadnought and it's 25 cal counterpart will do the job well at the ranges mentioned earlier in this post.

Ernie

[xphunter]

Kyode,
You don't have to win the lottery to have a good time with me or any of the other guys that have attended the clinic.
The 30-30AI would do good out to 700 yards I believe (maybe further).  I can't say that from experience since I have never used one at all.  I was shooting a mild load out of my 260 Rem in my MOA at the clinic (2550 with a 120 NBT) and did great out to 660 yards when splitting a bullet on the angle iron.  
When conditions are good or when they are the same (example-25 mph crosswind that is consistent), your slower cartridges will do just fine.  I wouldn't hesitate to try your rig at long range.  You don't have to have a "Custom Brand X" barrel to have fun or even shoot right with other specialty handguns that are tricked.  I have seen some rechambered TC barrels shoot pretty amazing groups at LR.  Couple of things that help a lot is to have a good rest system and working on your shooting form.
In my opinion, the 30 Alaskan is cartridge that allows you to go to the extreme edge of what you can accomplish in a Contender/G-2 in 30 Caliber.  With this cartridge you have to be careful that in your desire for more speed you don't stretch your frame (which can be done and has been done).  The G-2 has more strength than the Contender so you have a little more fudge room.  But it would still be unwise in my opinion to try to push it harder than you would in a Contender.

[Ladobe]

I'll chime in for the 6.5 Super Bower.   Mine is a Bullberry 15" that was Don's personal barrel for a while (not a rechamber) - now gets shot at the 1000 yard fun matches sometimes.   My biggest limiting factor with it is the optics it wears, a stock Burris 10X Target, but it still impresses the BR crowd.   Lots of good bullets available for it - I mostly use 356 brass but do have a stockpile of 307 for it as well.   Rest wise I've shot it off the Bower Rest System, but prefer off a bipod with a long 'floated' Bullberry forend since it gets used in the killing fields more than on paper.

JDJ wise, I have two 257's, one 6.5, two 309's and two 375's - any of these would get the job done as well at the ranges you are looking at.

Frame wise, I'd pass on the G2 and find a pre-fire easy open 'C' frame in good condition - have Jim Henry tune it for you.

IMO-YMMV

Ladobe

[xphunter]

Ladobe,
So your ideal cartridge is the 6.5 Super?  Sounds like you have a hummer barrel.  If you want the best as far as optics get Wally Siebert to do one of his conversions for you.  You start off with a Leupold 36 "D" Series and send it to Wally and you will end up with a 20x LER pistol scope.  Will make those 1,000 yard fun shoots even more fun, and hopefully even better groups.  There should be a first of it's kind field shoot for rifle and handguns (separte divisions) in Laramie Wyoming come October 3-4.  There will also be orientation (sort of like a clinic) on October 1-2 which is optional.
This shoot will be a team field shoot where you a have 2-person team.  you can have a shooter with a spotter who doesn't shoot, or you can have a shooter and a spotter who takes turns.  Targets will be steel gongs and the beginning range will be either 400 or 500 meters out to about 800 meters.  There will be different catagories for different weapons and age catagories.  This is about as much as I know.  The cost hasn't been set yet to my knowledge, but it's purpose is to bring out whatever rifle or handguns that you have and have a good time and learn.  There will be prizes also.  Cost will be held low (don't have figures yet) to make it affordable for any who participate.  This will hopefully turn into a annual shoot, with the possibility of Spring shoot with a prarie dog shoot for shooters before or after the match.  Sounds like fun to me!
I'm not organizing this, making money off of it, and I doubt I will even get to go because of time/money constraints.  I'm just informing you of what will happen that is new to our sport.  Hopefully, this is not solicitation.  If it is, let me know.
Ernie

[KYODE]

ladobe, i have a couple pre-fire frames, and i love them, but if you pass on the G2, i'm afraid you've missed the boat :roll: . i'm telling you it's sweet as pie . the trigger can be worked so easy, it's not funny. all you have to do is manipulate the trigger spring a little, and it's not hard to get to it at all. even the most inexperienced tinkerer can do it. i did it, and i can't stick my finger up my rear. :lol:

xp, don't mean to irritate you, but how would smaller cartridges work at long range targets? like 6tcu in contender, or 6br in encore. 80gr bullets in the 2800fps neighborhood. thanks

[xphunter]

Kyode,
You are far from irritating me.  I have never shot either of the two 6mm's you mentioned.  But let me put it this way, if my hunting buddy's 17 Mach IV XP-100 can do well at 500 meters, these two cartridges would do okay.  
TOF (time of flight) becomes a real issue at long ranges.  The difference of being accurate  @ 700 yards versus 1,000 yards can be immense, especially if conditions are inconsistent (hard to read).  Under consistent conditions or ideal conditions once you get sighted in for the conditions it is a hit everytime @ 500 meter rams (in fact it can actually get boring).  I use to have an original 221 Fireball XP-100 (10 3/4 barrel).  With 40 NBT's I have hit PD's out to 550 yards on several occasions.
Accuracy of the handgun, skill of the shooter, MV, BC, optics, mounting system, rest system, quality of the load, etc. are what make one capable of hitting consistenly at long range.  If the only negative is a low MV then, one can make up for that if he can read conditions real good (which I can't).  The 2 6's you mention will work at long range, on the other hand you shooting some faster cartridges of equal accuracy will shoot better groups in all likelyhood.

Ernie

[HHI 812]

He is been doing the type of shooting you are asking for quite a while. I recall him sending me an 8 page hand written letter on his theories of long range handgun shooting, and another several page article on an article he wanted to send out. Sure wish I kept them letters. This was a long time ago before the Encore was out, and he was using 14" barrels still. In fact, before the internet days. Not long after I got the letters, I think NRA or someone did a first article on him. At JD's site, there is a guy who shot a varmint at 1000+yards! Not sure if it was a .223 standard chambering or .223 Imp, but since you said your not going to hunt with it, if it will do the job with cheap brass, bullets and no recoil to speak of, sounds to me it would do what you want! Good luck on your search!  :grin:

[xphunter]

HHI 812,
Surely you are talking about Don Bower, right?  I know his opinions, and respect them.  I have spent close to two weeks with him and several other guys the past two years (in May of 2002 and just recently in early July) during his long range handgun clinics.  We also typically visit on the phone about once every 2 weeks or so.  Don likes to encourage clinic attendees to use his wildcats (of course!) with the 30 Alaskan being his first choice and probably the 6.5 Super Bower being his second.  I'm well aware of what Don's cartridges can do, since I have used them.  I really am impressed with his rest system and the advantages it has especially with any action that has an external hammer.
My purpose of this post is to have good discussion of what are the best out there for the contender at LR and promote LR shooting.  One of the sleepers (in my opinion, and it doesn't seem to be on Don's radar screen as a viable LR round) is the 223 Imp or the 222 Rem. Mag. Imp. with 1-8 or 1-7 twist set-up for VLD's in the 70-80 grain pills as you and others have mentioned.  Another sleeper may be the 6.5x50R Bellm.   I really enjoy long range shooting period with specialty handguns and have opinions of what I consider to be the better cartridges.  In stronger actions there is a whole other world of cartridges that can be used.  Since I haven't owned a TC product for about 6 years now (XP's are my thing), I haven't thought that much of what would be the the best in the Contender until about the past year and a half.  I couldn't think of a better place to get feedback than on a couple of forums filled with guys who love Contenders.  I appreciate your thoughts.
If I were to pick 3 calibers/cartridges for a Contender right now here is what they would be:
222 Rem. Mag. Imp., 6.5 Super or 6.5x50R Bellm (still more study to be done on the 6.5), and the 30 Alaskan.  

Ernie

[HHI 812]

Although I had a couple of them, I regret not hanging on to them(just me always itching for something new). Had a couple really early Crowley built XP's, in .308 and .250 Savage. Then a couple 7 BR's, and 221 FB's. Just parted with a Wichita 7 IHMSA/.243 switch barrel, but never shot them. The only Bower barrel I had in the old days, was a .30 Alaskan. In a weak moment for a new chambering, sold it for $95. T/C's wasn't real big back then. Have to admit, when I loaded it the way Bower said to loaded, it shot great! Have had a 7mmx50R Bellm barrel, but the ones I liked the best, was the 6.5X50R Bellms! One was a 16" Bellm built barrel, in the 6.5X50R Bellm barrel, and it really brought out the performance of the contender frame type cartridges. Just sold a .222 Rem Mag Imp barrel that Bellm did, in a 18" barrel, but never shot it, and the barrel twist was a 1:10 twist. I think you are right as far as the 5.6X50R and .222 Mag cases, with fast twist barrels, will do the trick! Like the little .300 Whisper and .338 Whispers I had, they were not moving fast, but with that fast twist barrels, they really stabilized them extra heavy bullets accurately. I've always wanted to meet Bower or go to his clinics, and may have to ask you about some tips! Just a long drive from Anchorage. Does he still have his old press, scale and powder measure? Just to show one doesn't need high tech equipment to shoot long range. If I was to pick three LR barrels for the contender, I would be tempted to also pick a .22, 6.5 and a .30 caliber, and would use a RWS 5.6X50R case for them all. Figured I cold really push it to its maximum safely, especially with the contender's limited pressure limits. I have formed a few 5.6X50R cases to .30, .338 and .357, and it seems to have a lot of possibilities. Wanted JD to do a .338 with a 1:7 twist using a .357 Max or 5.6X50R barrel, but he didn't want to do it. He even talked me out of the .338 Whisper #2(.221 FB case), and instead got the .338 Whisper #1(7BR case). I feel the .338x50R might work with a 1:7 twist, and the 300 grain bullet, but just not sure how fast you can push it and how long a barrel you are going to use? Now your getting me missing the contender. Just sold "all" my T/C stuff this past weekend. Worked out a deal to get a nickel braked 14" .308 Win Competitor? Never had one, being a T/C buff all these years, but we'll see how it goes. I guess if I had access to a long range, I would probably be shooting some of these long rangers. Bower asked me to start up this long range shooting, but only range out to 1000 meters I could find is on a military base, and they didn't civilians on there. I did here lately that the black powder shooters are using it? Good luck on your search, and keep us posted on what you finally get!!!

[xphunter]

HH812,
Yes, I really like the XP's (center-grip/single-shot).  What kind of performance did you get out of your 6.5x50R Bellm?  What bullet(s)?
I have never been to Don's house in Aurora, but I imagine he is still using the same set-up.  His age has caught up with him alot just in the past 14 months.  I could tell a difference between May of 02 and July of 03.  The range at Alliance is perfect.  You can shoot out to 1,000 yards and all on steel targets.  Sounds like you have had quite a variety of specialty handguns yourself.  When I get some barrels I will probably stay with the 222 Rem. Mag. Imp. with a 15-16 1/2 inch barrel.  The 6.5 will probably be the 6.5x50R Bellm (still unsure).  The 30 Caliber will probably be the Alaskan.  I want to support Don, he has done a lot for the sport with very little credit.  If plans continue the way they are, I will continue to help Don & Marc Sheehan with a yearly clinic @ Alliance.  To bad you are so far away.
Ernie

[HHI 812]

Would love to shoot long range. As most folks who know me well, I've pretty much tried "almost" everything made. Have slowed down in recent years, but have probably tried almost every custom T/C makers barrel and some never heard of, as well as most other handguns. Just to name a few, have had 8 500 Linebaughs and 24 Freedom Arms 454's in different flavors. Not all at one time mind you, being that I haven't spent any of my wages on my guns since we got the mortgage and kids over 18 years ago. But when I want something new, I sell or trade what I have. Been doing a lot of these dealings all these years. I think that 16" .222 Mag Imp would be a great pistol/carbine set up, and "if" you can get or want to spend the extra on brass, the 5.6X50 Bellm would be even better because of the extra capacity and mostly the rimmed case. With the 6.5X50R, I was surpassing my buddy's 6.5 JDJ with less powder, and seemed to be less recoil. Accuracy was pretty much the same, if not better with the Bellm barrel. Bower has done quite a bit and haven't been given the credit due to him.

[xphunter]

Could anyone tell me the maximum (safe-I know that can be different in each barrel) velocity differences between a 15 inch 30-30AI, 309JDJ, 300 Savage, 30 Bellm, 30 Alaskan, 30x50R Bellm?
If your barrel happens to be a 14 inch or 16 incher that would be fine too, just please give the length & type of barrel.

Bullets to choose from: 150, 165-168, 175, 180

Does anyone have a 30x50R Bellm? Specifics

Also curious about the difference between the 6.5 Super Bower and the 6.5x50R Bellm.

HH812,
Do you have those figures handy on the 6.5JDJ versus your 6.5x50R Bellm?

SD Handgunner sent me some 30-30 AI data in the past but I don't have it handy.

Appreciate any and all input.

Ernie

[HHI 812]

just my thoughts of other calibers, along with the .338 and .357. Cases were easy to form with RWS brass, and the brass is strong! No longer have the loads for the 6.5X50R Bellm or the 6.5 JDJ, but I was able to match the Bellm to the JDJ, and do it more saftely because of the head size. I'm sure the Bellm could even pass the 6.5 JDJ, with 120 grainers, which I felt was better for hunting. My buddy's 6.5 JDJ brass was actually sticking, while he was trying to match my 6.5 Bellm. I could have probably pushed the Bellm even more, because I've never loosened primer pockets with the strong brass, and could do so safely because the the small diameter head. If and Encore was used I'm sure it would be a different story, but we are talking Contenders. That is the reason I was sort of wanting to stick to the 5.6X50R case in even the .30, .338 and .357 calibers. Just can better utilize the higher pressures "SAFELY", and efficiently. The bigger cases like the .444 and .307 will allow you to use more slow burning powder for heavier bullets, and if that is what you want, then the bigger case will let you shoot them big bullets. Bellm explains some of your questions at his site about the .30 cartridge comparisons. So if your are going heavy bullets for the caliber, then the bigger cases might be the way to go. But I sure liked how my .300 Whisper shot with the 240 Sierra MK, and my .338 Whisper the 300 Sierra MK, and they were going subsonic. Rainbow trajectory yes, but have shot some of the most accurate groups with them. Oh yah, the .300 Whisper was a 1:8 twist, and the .338 Whisper was a 1:7 twist.
Dennis

[xphunter]

Dennis,
Thanks! I have read Mike's info.  I also agree with your reasoning.  When shooting the 30 cal I would want to shoot 150-180 grain bullets.  I think (not sure) like you that the Alaskan may beat the 30x50R Bellm.  No one will know till it is compared.  If the 6.5x50R Bellm beat the JDJ without getting sticky at all it will likely beat or equal the 6.5 Super Bower, and be safer to boot.

Ernie

[HHI 812]

After shooting the Whispers subsonic, don't think one really needs to push to max velocities. Trajectory might be more rainbow like, but accurate. Buddy who competes in this black powder long range shooting, only go around 1200fps, and they do shoot farther than 600 meters too, and with iron sights!

[xphunter]

For ranges beyond 500 meters out to 1,000 yards I really prefer to have  a short time of flight as possible.  Combination of time of flight, accuracy & BC really make a difference.  In fact time of flight is more important than your best accuracy @ 1,000 yards.  Lets say you have your ragged hole group that is 150 FPS slower than you fastest group which isn't a one hole but still makes a nice round group.  On days of bad shooting conditions you would be better off to use your fastest group than your ragged hole group, since the quicker time of flight load even though the group isn't as good will more than make up for your imperfect ability to read the conditions well @ 1,000 yards.  The end result is the less accurate faster group will group better @ 1,000 than your ragged hole slower group will.  The less time the bullet is in the air the less time it has to be moved around by all the changing conditions.  If you are competing with people who are all shooting the same MV you are all in the same boat, but why not take advantages where you can if you can do it safely?

Ernie

[HHI 812]

I never got to shoot that far, and you learning and shooting  with Bower shows! I'll have to consider that when looking for new chamberings too! :grin:

[xphunter]

to Don, I didn't learn about what I mentioned in my last post from Don, but rather from my gunsmith, Greg Tannel of Gre-Tan Rifles www.gtrtooling.com who builds and competes at 1,000 yards.  He learned the info from the the best bench shooter today, Tony Boyer.  I have also read PS's book/journal on 1,000 yard shooting several times.  The more I read it the more it humbles me to realize how difficult it is to shoot consistent good groups @ 1,000 yards at different ranges in different conditions.  I shot a 12 inch 5-shot group with my 284 Win. XP last year at the clinic--Yes, I was very happy since it was my first time ever @ 1,000.  Repeating that consistently is a different story.  Don't misunderstand me, Don has taught me some things and I am grateful, but I have learned and will continue to learn from as many people as possible.  The great thing about Don is that he is more interested in getting people to learn what they can do at long range and promote the sport than he is about making a name for himself or even a lot of money.
Ernie

[xphunter]

With more time to ponder about long range cartridges for the Contender/G-2 I have come up with three for me. They may not be the ones you would choose, but I would not feel out classed by any other offerings that are out there. These barrels would be somewhere in the 15-17 inch range and I wouldn't hesitate using them for big game (the 6.5 & 30 that is).

222 Rem. Mag. Imp. with a 1-7 or 1-8 twist.

6.5x50R Bellm

30 Alaskan

Well, these are my three choices. I enjoyed the mental gymnastics!

Ernie

[HHI 812]

I've owned all these chamberings before, and didn't keep them. But the only way I can afford to play with new toys, is to sell the ones I have. Oh well, such is life. Hope you find what you want! Dennis

[RipOne]

The .243 Win may not sound Wild enough - but it is. Call it the .243 Win Variant ( Different than others )