decisions on which rifle this week

[mjbgalt]

i am trying to pick a rifle to use for varminting and coyotes. i have a remington sps .22-250 which shoots like the last couple remingtons i bought...horribly and in 3" patterns.

no thanks.

i am going to either sell or trade it to someone with more patience.

i am in the market for a .22-250, either savage, weatherby vanguard, or

any ideas?

-Matt

[LONGTOM]

I believe I would consider a SAVAGE in a 243.
I have had three of them in the past and they were all shooters right out of the box.
Can't say that about to many brands these days.
Of course I have had both good and bad ones in different calibers from most of the major companies.
I can't say about the 22-250, never had one in a SAVAGE.
The only reason I suggest a 243 is you have a dual purpose gun, both varmint and deer, along with a cartridge that will buck the wind a little better on those bad days.
Just my thoughts.


LONGTOM

[Brithunter]

Ahh if your looking at the Vanguard then may I suggest you look at the Howa 1500 as after all they make the vanguards.. Looking on the net I see that the Savage classics look rather nice. Never shot one though so cannot comment on that aspect.

[Freezer]

    Contact Swampman, he thinks Remington is the best rifle in the world and that they all shoot well out of the box   Then buy a Savage.

[Swampman]

I'd say you need to have someone that knows something about rifles shoot it with Remington factory ammo.  You're doing something wrong.

With the Savage you'll have to deal with the Accu-Trigger

With the Vanguard you'll have to deal with a bad trigger, and a trigger group that looks like it cost 10 cents to produce

[Cecil]

Well if you don't mind the weight the Ruger varmint- target in 22-250 I have is a shooter bar none

[yooper77]

mjbgalt,

OK, what ammo, mount, rings and scope are you using?

yooper77

[mcwoodduck]

What about a 527 Varmint in 223 Rem.  You have three options of a stock.  Website is www.cz-usa.com
Personally I have a Rem 700 SPS in 223 wearing a Weaver 6-24X42 scope that I can shoot the bottle caps off soda bottles at 200 yards with 45 grain JHP Rem/ Umc bulk ammo.
But the cool thing about the CZ rifles is the single set trigger.  You push forward on the trigger with your thumb and you get a light crisp set trigger and the standard trigger ain't bad either.  About like my 700.

[Tunaman]

Man, I am sorry to her about that 700. I just picked one up in 204 and its future looks promising. Not to add fuel to your fire, but have you looked at the Tikka varmint rifles? I shot one a few weeks ago and i have to admit that I was pretty impressed. The trigger was very nice and it shot better than .5 out of the box. I don't have a tikka in a varmint caliber but I have two t-3s, one in 25-06 and one in 300wsm. Both shoot very well and also have great triggers. I hope that I didn't confuse you any more.

Swampman, those may have been your most myopic and inflaming comments yet. Way to go. I just have to ask this one question. Do you work for Remington? If not, you need to solicit them for sponsorship of some sort.

[Swampman]

I have my application in.  I want to move to North Carolina to be close to my grandkids.  If a 700 won't shoot, it's not the rifle's fault.  Rings & mounts not tight, cheap rings & mounts, cheap/bad scopes, and crummy/incorrect ammo. are all likely culprits.  Then again shooter error cannot be discounted.

[kyelkhunter3006]

I'd say you need to have someone that knows something about rifles shoot it with Remington factory ammo.  You're doing something wrong.

With the Savage you'll have to deal with the Accu-Trigger

With the Vanguard you'll have to deal with a bad trigger, and a trigger group that looks like it cost 10 cents to produce

SIGH........   

The Accu-Trigger is great, and it's the sole reason that Remington, Ruger, and other companies have "tried" to get better, user friendly triggers.  It's no more and no less durable/fragile than any other trigger.

I've had a couple of Vanguards (Varmint Specials) and they all shot well, and the trigger's weren't any worse out of the box than Remington, Ruger, etc.  They aren't as easy to adjust, and probably better suited to having a good 'smith do it.

The CZ 527's are fabulous guns and that set trigger is too sweet.  It'll shoot with anything, and better than most.  It's nice and compact too.  I wish I could find one in 7.62x39 with the 22" barrel (that's how they first were produced, not as carbines with 18.5")

Tikka's shoot very well too.  I've had a couple of T3 Lite's, and while they didn't have that quite "right" feel for me, they did shoot better than average.  I think that it was the synthetic stock that I didn't like, I think that the laminate might be the ticket, but no one around here has one, and I'm not dropping $700 to see if I like it.  I'd like to shoot a couple of the varmint or tactical models to see how the stock with the cheekpiece and wider forend feels, along with the balance of the heavy barrel.  I've NEVER heard of one of the varmint or tacticals NOT shooting with extreme accuracy.

[NAM70]

I'm a 700 Remington guy. Right now I have 3 and over the years I have had more. Not one of them has disappointed me in the accuracy department. I have a new on in 204 and absolutely love it. I've put about 400 rounds through over the last few months and its capable of shooting alot better than the nut behind the trigger. BTW the X-Mark Pro trigger is excellent and very easy to adjust. Dave4

[mjbgalt]

since i am over the age of 7, i don't see the need to lash back. however, when you can show me some targets you have shot with 4 or 5 different brands of guns and handloaded for all of them and gotten them to shoot sub 1/2" groups off the bench, let me know.

this is the second remington sps stainless i have had that shot like this. the other was a .243. no pattern, no rhyme or reason. all screws are tight, trigger was lightened to where i like it, scope was on good and tight, and i am a decent shot.

the point is not to rip remington. the point is to find one that WILL shoot.

-Matt

[Swampman]

I didn't know we were talking about a second hand rifle.  There's no telling about a second hand rifle. 

[mjbgalt]

yooper77, this is with winchester white box ammo and with my reloads with a 52-grain sierra match bullet. i have weaver bases, and millet rings.

this one apparently has had the barrel cryo treated. from where i sit behind the scope, looks like all they did was get it real cold, because it didn't do anything else for it.

sure, i could load more and use a different bullet or powder. but when a rifle throws bullets to random places and there is no pattern or grouping, it tells me something is wrong with the rifle.

golly gee, i guess i should go ask someone who knows something about rifles. i'm just too durn dumb.

-Matt

[mjbgalt]

honestly, my guess is that it's the stock, as it is not exactly even on both sides of the barrel channel. it also does not have the barrel pads at the end of the stock, for that pressure point.

looks like the last owner maybe sanded them off.

that's an easy thing to say "yup, that's the problem," but a lot of my other rifles have been free floated and they shoot just fine.

i am going to shoot it again this week with my reloads and a business card stuck between the end of the stock and the barrel.

i like remington rifles, and i would rather keep this one. just that i have not had good luck with them.

-Matt

[mjbgalt]

swampman, i have never claimed to be a handloading genius or a great shot, but i have had 2 contender rifles, 3 encores, a couple remingtons, a browning, a few rugers, and a savage or two that i can think of off the top of my head in the last few years.

with the exception of the ruger number one (which is a well-documented poorly bedded rifle which sometimes needs work before it will shoot), and the remingtons, they have all been capable of less than an inch with my reloads and my finger pulling the trigger. all i am saying is that my finger and reloads are the same this time...why the problems?

-Matt

[yooper77]

Ok, what scope are you using?

yooper77

[Tunaman]

Matt,
Your lack of preasure points could well be it. My 204 SPS  varmint has preasure points. My guess is that the person before you heard from a buddy that read somewhere that all rifles had to be free floated to shoot well. I would also think that a new stock would probably be cheaper than a new rifle. You may want to give that a shot. If you bought a Boyds or something nicer, it would add to the resale if you decide to sell or trade it later. Good luck

[mjbgalt]

i had those thoughts too...i am just not too happy to think that i have to spend more to get it to do what it's supposed to.

then again the guy did modify it. i will try it with the forend pressure and report back.

-Matt

[mcwoodduck]

MJbgalt,
     Don't take what the other guys say to seriously.  Most in thier way are trying to help you.  I once saw a guy at the range trying to sight in his hunting rifle with a new scope and did not have the scope mounts tight.  When my friend and I both in our early 20's tried to help him we saw that the scope was loose in the mounts and told him he needed to tighten them up before he could even think about sighting in the rifle.  We also explained that he needed to see whre the rifle goups and adjust his scope after a string of shots.  He was a gentleman on his early 40's and told us we "didn't know what we were doing you sight in the scope and them tighten it all down to keep it there"  We think he was talking about the little cross hair lock on the bottom of the scope that a couple of companies had out at the time.  What I think most of the guys are saying is what will kill a ford pick up will kill a chevy and dodge as well.  If you are having problems with the stainless 700 you will probably have the same problems with a savage, ruger, winchester, CZ, or any other rifle make or model.  I again suggest the CZ or the Ruger as they have their own scope rings and they work very well.  It may take one element out of the five element problem ( Scope, scope mounts, tight screws, ammo and shooter/ bench position.
Just for laughs.  Take your rifle out.  Put it in a rest or on sand bags and get the rifle comfortable to you.  If you need to go up more stick a couple of .50 ammo cans under the bags.  Shoot at a spot on a target 100yards away.  now aim for the bullet hole and shoot three shots as carefully as possible.  How big is the group?  Don't worry if your 3" off of the hole as long as all three rounds are close to each other you can adjust the cross hairs.

[kyelkhunter3006]

i had those thoughts too...i am just not too happy to think that i have to spend more to get it to do what it's supposed to.

then again the guy did modify it. i will try it with the forend pressure and report back.

-Matt

If the pressure point works, the easiest cheapest thing to do would be to glass a pressure point in to the stock.  Rough up the stock, use a quality bedding compound, maybe drill a couple of holes in any x-members in the stock for the compound to adhere to.

[Tunaman]

I agree with the above. You may want to try some beer can or card shimms before trying that, just to see if it works.

[mjbgalt]

i am going to give these a try.

to answer the question, mcwoodduck, that's what i did, but the groups were not in the same place. there wasn't a "group," more like a random pattern. my bench position was the same each time.

i think some of you are missing what i am saying. all my other rifles shoot very well. i am not suddenly changing everything i do "right" with those when i shoot this one.

i am not a newbie to this, either...i have developed what "works" for me and this rifle for some reason does not respond to it.

i will let you know what happens when i shoot it for groups.

-Matt

[Swampman]

It might be possible to find a new laminated stock on eBay or GunBroker, and then sell your old stock on eBay for nearly the same amount.  I do it all the time.

[kyelkhunter3006]

Yep.  That's a good option too.  I used to do that all of the time for my rifles.  Since it's a Remington, there should be a decent selection.  People buy, sell, trade stocks on ebay and gunbroker regularly.

I'd still try the shims first though.  It's the easiest fix, if it works.

[NAM70]

since i am over the age of 7, i don't see the need to lash back. however, when you can show me some targets you have shot with 4 or 5 different brands of guns and handloaded for all of them and gotten them to shoot sub 1/2" groups off the bench, let me know.

this is the second remington sps stainless i have had that shot like this. the other was a .243. no pattern, no rhyme or reason. all screws are tight, trigger was lightened to where i like it, scope was on good and tight, and i am a decent shot.

the point is not to rip remington. the point is to find one that WILL shoot.

-Matt

Ok-Here's a 5 shot group shot with CHEAP Midway dogtowns. It looks like a 3 shot group but's accually a 5 shot group.



Heres another 5 shot group. How many pics do you want?. I have a lot of them. I haven't had one that won't shoot.

[mjbgalt]

that wasn't directed at you. i am sure yours shoot just fine.

-Matt

[jmayton]

Could be the stock.  Could be the rifle is ammo finicky.  If I have one that won't shoot, I try lots of different factory loads and several handloads...what works in one doesn't always work in another.  Could be a bad scope.  I have a Savage that always shot great and then suddenly the groups started opening up.  I tried several things, then put a scope on it that I knew was good and whaddaya know, it worked.  Scopes are mechanical devices that can fail, so it might be worth checking out.

[mjbgalt]

well i had a vanguard that did this and all i had to do was switch powders and it suddely shot 1/2" type groups. maybe that's all this one needs.

-Matt