Author Topic: The Plainbase Advantage  (Read 3704 times)

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Offline Veral

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The Plainbase Advantage
« on: September 20, 2008, 08:21:44 PM »
  With the cost of gas checks and all other loading components being so high and most likely going higher, I've decided to write a bit about useing plainbase successfully, and at the same time am making all my readers an offer of deeply discounted plainbase bullet molds for a limited period of time. -- Maybe my real reason is somewhat of a guilt feeling because I have probably pushed gas checked bullet advantages harder than any other person on earth, for nearly 30 years.  However, if I have any guilt, it is only 'somewhat of a guilt feeling'!  I have told the complete truth about the superiority of gas checked bullets, but with costs where they are now, I'm going to show you the 'other side of the coin' and try to make it affordable for you to try a top quality plain base mold if the idea appeals to you.

  The 'deal' I'm offering is 25 percent off on new molds, cut to your specs.  I'll keep the offer open for at least a month, possibly longer, depending on how tired I get of making molds at slave wages!  See the mold sale post near this one, and email me for the list.  I'll have more details on the list.

  The real advantages of gas checks are when one wants full power from magnum revolvers, or the maximum power possible from rifles, and especially  if the bores arent' perfect.  However, if you have lapped your gun, and or don't need or want full power there is a lot of money to be saved with plainbase bullets.  A savings of 6 cents per shot is quite normal and much more with selected loads, when smaller quantities of faster burning powder are used.  Yet performance can be completely adaquate for most handgun uses.  If you have followed my writings through the years you'll notice that I started LBT pushing for power, as I thought it was necessary when I did my original bullet design work, so my LBT bullet designs are potentially the most powerful on earth.  Yet, after a few years of customer feed back and personal experiance, I began recommending big game hunting loads which are way below full magnum revolver power.  These loads can be every bit as good with plainbase as with gas checks, if the gun they are used in has been lapped.

  To realize maximum savings with plainbase bullets, powder quantity needs to be reduced so that the savings isn't just the gas checks.  To reduce powder quantity and keep velicities up to a good kill speed, bullet weight must be kept in the mid weight range for both revolvers and rifles, so high sustained pressure isn't required to get the bullets speed up.  For example, in 44 caliber, a 250 to 260 gr bullet is probably optimum, pushed out by powders in the burning rate range of Unique, Herco etc.  The best powder I've used for this type loads is Hodgen Universal, which I love because it burns so clean and because for reasons I don't understand the report is milder, and muzzle flash less,  than with any other powder I've used.  It works very well in any rifle cartridge for low velocity plainbase loads, with extremely close shot to shot velocities.
   I am listing on the mold sale list what I consider the optimum weights for plainbase use, though much heavier and much lighter can be satisfactory.  But I have chosen weights that I know have superb accuracy potential and adaquate weight to give 100% penetration with a good wound size all the way on game up to at least deer size. They are all the WFN profile, which will be more accurate than any other profile in these lighter weights, no matter from the LBT lineup or from any other mold or bullet manufacture.  Because they carry the longest bearing length, and strongest barrel grabbing strength of any bullet design in equal weight. -- I'll give you a few clues about what to expect performance wise.  I killed 5 deer with a 44 caliber 240 gr WFN started at 1200 fps, three of them at about 100 yards, two at about 70 yards, all instant kills.  I killed around 10 deer with a 30 caliber 160 gr WFN started at 1150 fps.  The first deer, with an all hard bullet, was penetrated from chest to ham.  This large buck bounced around in almost a complete circle and dropped dead, but I didn't like the tiny wound, so the rest were shot with hollow pointed softnosed bullets, which killed as quick as most full power rifle loads, and every bullet exited.  All but the first were shot broadside through the chest if at all possible, with a couple of them quartering.  You can duplicate that performance in rifles,  by using a ductile alloy, preferably 1/20 tin lead.  It will NOT expand without help with low impact velocites, but if narrow strips of aluminum foil are placed in the mold so it casts into about 1/8 to 1/4 inch of the bullet nose length wise, they will expand on contact, turning the bullet into a 'butterfly' that acts like a chainsaw.  I'll write more on this if you are interested.  Don't expect to try it with alloys containing more than about 1/2 % antimony or with bullet hardness over about 14 bhn, and whatever alloy you use, for best big game results, push them to the highest velocity at which you can get accuracy.  I'm not recommending this type loads for every deer hunter, but only for those with enough esperiance to get close enough for a sure hit in the right spot, and with the understanding that following up on any shot, with carefull tracking are essential to recovering game.

  For plainbase rifle bullets velocities can be pushed quite a bit higher than in a handgun, before leading begins, which is the point where accuracy begins to fall off, as loads are incrementally increased during load development.  1500 fps is easy in most 6.5 and larger caliber rifles, with higher velocities being possible in the larger calibers than in smaller.  --  Lets consider what is possible with a 30 caliber rifle, in which a 140 gr will probably be optimum weight for most guns.  Again in the FN nose form.  This bullet started at 1400 fps muzzle velocity, punches a half inch hole through game, and that speed can be obtained with about 10 grains of Universal, if memory serves me right.  If that hole is punched in the right spot critters up to at least deer size expire quickly, yet small game down to squirrel and cottontail rabbits can be taken with negligible meat loss. (It will tear grouse up pretty bad.)   I'm recommending 140 gr in 30 caliber because it will fit easily into, and shoot accurately in almost any 30 caliber rifle there is. 
  Communicate with me on weights for other rifle calibers if you decide to order, and I'll make recommendations relitive to the type use you are intending.  Keep in mind that lightweight WFN rifle molds are very universal if maximum diameter for the caliber is selected.  For example, you will hardly be able to find a 30 caliber rifle that will not handle a 140 gr .314 diameter bullet.  A few will  require sizing to something a bit smaller, but with the one mold you can load for all your friends and yourself.  Deadly loads at slightly more cost than 22 rimfire ammo.  (Lets see now.  Did I just spell out a hard times survival cast bullet, or what?)

  Please pop me any questions about this that come up, because I want you completely comfortable about buying a plainbase mold.  If you understand the limitations, you will be happy with performance.

Veral Smith

Offline TommyD

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2008, 12:29:19 AM »
I recently "bit the bullet" and ordered a non-gas check mold from Veral, and I have to say it is one of the most accurate bullets I have ever cast. THE most accurate in its weight range.

I got the 45 Colt 260 grain LFN with a bevel base (this works best in my Star Sizer) sized at .452.

Using either Universal or W231 I can shoot 2 to 3 inch groups at 50 YARDS and can consistently ding the pepper popper at 100 yards. This is using a stock Ruger Super Redhawk with a 2x scope. Out of the box with no modifications at all.

Bravo!!

Tom
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Offline Veral

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2008, 04:28:23 PM »
  Thank you Tom.  And you are probably saving half the component cost per round.

  Bevel bases are what I recommend of Star sizers and I'll make them on the sale molds if asked.   For those using RCBS or Lyman sizers I recommend having the stop plug remachined on the top end.  Cup the punch out, then face the perimeter off till there is about 1/32 inch of flat which contacts the bullet base.  When sizing press down a bit at the bottom of the stroke until the base is imprinted at least 80% of the way around.  This insures a base that is dead square to the SIZED bullet, and does wonders for accuracy, with plainbase or gas checked.  This is a lathe job.  If you don't have access to a lathe or machining abilities, I will do them for $5 each.  Send as many as you want, with $5 for each one.  Just the stop plug.   Don't send the whole die.  No extra postage is required if sending plugs along with a mold order.  If you want plugs machined and will not be ordering molds, I'll do them for the same price, but include $8 for packaging and return shipping.   This is a little accuracy edge that you'll never regret getting.  The modification may not help accuracy with some cast bullets, especially if they are of poor design or fit, but on the average, you'll see a worthwile improvement.  With shorter, and especially larger diameter bullets the accuracy advantage will be very real, and I believe with bullets from any mold, from any mold maker. 
Veral Smith

Offline COR

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2008, 12:10:19 PM »
Veral, I am very interested in one of you PB molds.  I have a Ruger .45 Bisley 5 1/2"...I took your advice from a previous email to check the cylinder throats, mine were .450 and .451.  I have since had them all opened to a beautiful .4525 (Cylindersmith.com). I haven't lapped this gun or any others I own. I am currently shooting an RCBS 270 SAA cast at about 15BHN in front of 18.5 grs of 2400.  No leading whatsoever, which is good(I hate cleaning 'em).  What weight and which Plain Base design would you recommend for my .45?  I am a Pa hunter and the game will be mostly whitetail and black bear.  A cow elk on occassion if I get to Colorado each year.  I don't ever shoot past 75yds and that is only under ideal circumstance.  I thank you for your time and the previous advice, my gun shoots much better after the reaming.  Could you also list some of your favorite powders for PB bullets?

Offline wgr

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2008, 06:14:31 PM »
Veral i got a 44cal. 280 grain plain base mould from you that i like very well. its accurate and not bad on recoil if i keep them around 1000fps to about 1150 are so with water cooled wheel weights would you say this is about the right speed for this bullet ?thinks bill
never to much gun

Offline Veral

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2008, 08:00:11 AM »
  The velocity is definately right for practice and play loads if you are comfortable with it and don't develope  flinch when shooting it a lot.  But the speed at you low end is a bit mild for best killing punch.  ll50 fps is good but 1200 fps best minimum speed if you have the WFN, if it's the LFN, 1300 fps or a bit over will give the same performance on game.

  Please note that when I wrote all the above about plainbase bullets I leaned a bit heavy on the money saving aspect and the advantage of using medium burning rate powders.  I should have made it clear that when the magnum powders are used, specifically H110, 296 and Accurate 9, one can come real close to getting the magnum revolver velocities of gas checked bullets.  Maybe 200 fps velocity reduction will be required to get equal or very close accuracy, compared to gc bullets.  You'll never match gc velocity potential, because checks do take about 5,000 to 10,000 psi off the maximum pressure of magnum loads, while at the same time raising velocity by 50 to 100 fps.   This means you hit full pressure with less powder when using a plainbase, at reduced velocity.  If you don't want full velocity anyhow, does all the efficiency matter?  Nope!    I'm speaking here of magnum loads not moderate pressure loads as in the speicals.
Veral Smith

Offline TommyD

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2008, 12:04:02 PM »
Hi Veral,

After work Friday, I headed out to my country place for the weekend. I wanted to try out some warmer loads suitable for hunting. The load I selected was the 45 Colt H110 load recommended by John Linebaugh at the conclusion of his "Dissolving the Myth" article (http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm).

I had loaded up a box of the 260 grain LFN bevel base bullets with the load of H110. The vertical stringing problem I saw with AA No. 9 has disappeared. I shot three 2 inch groups at 50 yards and clanged the pepper popper at 100 yards both times I shot at it. Then twilight was upon me and a light misting rain started, so the fun had to end. This is an unmodified, out of the box, Ruger Super Redhawk. Not lapped. The only add on is the 2x scope.

I find this bullet to be entirely satisfactory. My only regret is that I didn't order a four cavity mold.

But seriously Veral, have you been holding out on us all these years? All this talk about gas checks! And now I find that I can easily get nice warm loads in a 260 grain bevel base bullet with no gas check that is more accurate than other ones in its weight class, including the well know green and orange box molds.

Thank you so much for this excellent design.
The best is, after all, good enough.

Tom 
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Offline crabo

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2008, 11:56:41 AM »
You said,

"For example, in 44 caliber, a 250 to 260 gr bullet is probably optimum, pushed out by powders in the burning rate range of Unique, Herco etc.  The best powder I've used for this type loads is Hodgen Universal, which I love because it burns so clean and because for reasons I don't understand the report is milder, and muzzle flash less,  than with any other powder I've used."

Can you give me some charge levels for your 260wfn pb?  I ordered that and a 280wfn gc.

Thanks,

Crabo

Offline Veral

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2008, 06:53:10 PM »
  Jacketed data for the faster powders is going to be very safe pressure wise.  However with the slower powders, namely H110  296  2400 etc, velocities may be too high for the plain base if full loads are used, though with a good smooth barrel, full jacketed loads will shoot fine without leading problems if LBT bullet lube is used.  Use the starting loads for jacketed to start and work up, just as with jacketed.

  I laid down a lot of ink on using the fast powders with plainbase, the idea being to minimize shooting costs.  However, I should have made it very clear that to get maximum power potential with plainbase bullets in magnum handguns, use the slower powders.  Most decent guns will beat jacketed velocites with plainbase, due to the lower pressures of well lubed lead, and do it at much lower pressure.  That's more than enough power to take game.    Gas checking lead bullets allows both chamber pressures and maximum velocity to be much higher than plainbase, with velocities far in excess of jacketed bullets.
Veral Smith

Offline jbquack1

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2008, 09:34:24 PM »
i use alot of your designs in .45 colt and .475 linebaugh and a good powder for "reduced loads that i have found is hs-6.I have used 231 and unique but i tend to use heavier bullets with the 265 wfngc bullet being the lightest and have found that hs-6 is a very gentle powder.I have whittled down my charge weight in a 45 colt to 13 grains of hs-6.With this i use bullets from verals 265 wfngc/to 335 grain lfn's and i will be trying it with my 350 that is coming soon.Soi have one charge for reduced loads and get 1100 with lighter stuff and about 1050 with the heavies.These are taken from my 5 1/2 inch bisley and i get about 200-250 fps more in my legacy carbine.In my .475 i run a 412 grain lbt and use 14 grains of hs-6 for my reduced load,which gives me about 1050 fps in a 5 1/2 inch handgun.I have never tried lighter bullets in my .475 so have no experience with them.jim

Offline Veral

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2008, 04:52:44 PM »
  Thanks Jim.  I've never used that powder, but used to know the manufacture of most the Hodgen powders.  Winchester made most of them as I recall, this back around 15 years ago.  They have a lot of new ones out now which I'm sure are made all over the world.
Veral Smith

Offline jbquack1

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2008, 07:59:47 AM »
I shoot predominately plainbase bullets and have succsess with them, of course gas checks are goo0d insurance but if you know your alloy and understand cast bullets a little you can do excellent work with plainbase, one example is verals 328 lfn.i have got over 1600 fps from this out of a carbine and no leading, hits like a sledge hammer, and if you make these big bullets out of wheelweights and maybe some tin they are cheap.i don't count my time and i get wheelweights for free so far so i figure my cost per hundred is under 10 bucks,compared to buying good cast bullets at 35 plus dollars per hundred you can get lots of practice in.jim

Offline Veral

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2008, 08:52:37 PM »
  Thank you Jim.

  If you'll notice the date which this post was originally put up, you'll see it was a little while before the corrent political scare shook the shooting world into getting ready for trouble and hard times.

  I think maybe I've been aware of what is going on for at least 10 years, and thought it very timely to write this post when I did.  Which is also the reason I offered plainbase molds at such a low price, and I am still offering them at present.  If my finger is reading the pulse of our problems anywhere near close, I'll continue to offer them till no one can afford to purchase or be allowed to, whichever comes first.

  Because I'm a red blooded American who wants to do all I can to keep this country alive long after the abscounder political theives and traitors are gone.   And after I'm gone too, which I hope happens long after they are gone!
Veral Smith

Offline jbquack1

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2009, 01:04:13 PM »
Not to try to "one up you", but i lived in western montana for a couple years and really became aware of our plight about 1993.As far as i am concerned anything that aids in my becoming autonomous,a.k.a bullet casting is positive and your endeavours in this art have helped me

Offline cjensen

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2009, 11:09:18 AM »
 

  I think maybe I've been aware of what is going on for at least 10 years, and thought it very timely to write this post when I did.  Which is also the reason I offered plainbase molds at such a low price, and I am still offering them at present.  If my finger is reading the pulse of our problems anywhere near close, I'll continue to offer them till no one can afford to purchase or be allowed to, whichever comes first.


I just got word from Veral that the special price on plain base molds is over. They are back to $125 + Shipping
My goal in life is to have a carbon footprint the size of Al Gore's. I can be living the good life and know I am not causing global warming. Make Al your carbon standard.

Offline Veral

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Re: The Plainbase Advantage
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2009, 07:14:30 PM »
  Thank you for posting this, CJ.

  I do still have the mold sale running and have perhaps 150 molds left, at 25% off.  There are quite a few plainbase bullets on it yet, and of coarse many are gas checked.

  Email and request the mold sale list to get one that's currect.  Don't order off one I sent even a week ago, as all that sell are removed from the list.  They are first come basis.  All are new and in perfect condition, though a few have been tested and returned, which means a few have slight mold lube stains.

  Email to get sale list           LBTisAccuracy@Imbris.net
Veral Smith