338 EDGE

[kyotekiller25]

Here is my latest rifle.  Its my new long range rifle for deer/elk/black bears out to 1200 yards.  Built by Shawn Carlock of Defensive Edge Gunsmithing.  Caliber is 338 EDGE which is a 300 RUM necked up to .338 with no other changes.  Its designed around the 300g SMK (.768 BC) which exits the muzzle anywhere from 2800-2900fps depending on length of barrel/powder used, and individual rifle.  The 300g SMK stays supersonic to a little over 2000 yards, and has 2,000 ft lbs energy at 1000 yards.  Have been making hits on 15" steel plate with boring regularity at 1K laying prone w/harris bipod.

My rifle is built off a Rem 700 BDL stainless action, 28" HART stainless/fluted, 1-10", #6 contour, with Defensive Edge muzzle brake.  Factory rem trigger tuned to a glass breaking 1.5#.  Original LSS stock opened up to accept the HART barrel.  Leupold PRW base/rings.  Leupold VX3 LR, 6.5-20x50mm, SF, fine duplex.  Scope level, and ACI level indicator.  Shoots 300g SMK at 2840fps with 92g H-1000, Rem brass, CCI 250, 3.780"

Deer season opens in a couple weeks.  Need to get it bloodied up!!!

Hope you enjoy the pics.  Pics dont really do it justice...

First hit at 1K.  First 2 shots barely missed the left and right edge of this 10" plate.  If I was shooting at my 15" plate, they would have been hits.  Was quite windy that day, about 15 mph switching winds, but I just wanted to get out and shoot the rifle, couldn't wait for the weather!!  The 3rd shot rang true dead center for windage, about 3" high of dead center.  Knocked the gong for a loop and left it hanging by 1 piece of twine.  300g really has some thump!!







This is my current battery, from L-R, 25-06, 7 RM, 300 WBY, 338 EDGE, 45-70 Govt.  Got a .222 rem as well, but didn't put it in the pic for some reason.

[nilescoyote]

Very nice. So how effective is the brake in dampinging the recoil on the 338. Good luck on your LR hunt, be sure to show us...

I'm set up with a FN SPR 300wsm with a JP brake and hoping to get a midrange (500-600ish) shot on a  mule deer this fall. I'm loading a 190 Berger VLD at 2825fps per my crono.

[Graybeard]

You sure must have some HUGE deer there to need an elephant gun to kill them. Around here the 7-08 does just fine and allows the shoulder to continue on a bit longer without the much needed surgery.

[nomosendero]

Beautiful rifle indeed. I hear that Mr. Carlock does great work. Is that Mr. Carlock's brake or Kirby's?

[DalesCarpentry]

Very nice set up for sure!!!!!!!! Would you mind telling us what the rifle alone set you back? Inquiring minds want to know. Oh by the way have you shot groups with it and if so how is it shooting groups wise? Thanks Dale

[Bart Solo]

1500 yards. Wow, I can't even see a deer that far. Whatever floats your boat. 

[anweis]

300wsm with a JP brake and hoping to get a midrange (500-600ish) shot on a  mule deer this fall.

Why don't you get a bit closer?

[kyotekiller25]

The rifle weighs about 14 lbs loaded w/bipod.  Shooting the rifle feels about like a 270 or 30-06.  The DE brake really helps things.  I dont even think its possible to shoot these rifles w/out a brake, accurately anyways. 

The DE brake is indeed Shawn Carlocks brake.  It has 3 large ports on the left/right side.  No ports on bottom for obvious reasons.  Not to sure why there isn't 3 smaller ports on top, thinking it has something to do with more blowback pressure.  Either way, its still VERY effective.

With the cost of the original rifle, which was a LSS 300 RUM, I shot that barrel out in 2 years, the barrel, truing of the action, scope, accessories, etc...the total cost of that rifle in the pic is right at $3,000, which isn't to bad actually...If I wanted another stock, like HS precision or McMillan, it would cost another $300-500, aftermarket trigger would be another $100.  I tried to make it as cheap as possible, but still be a reliable 1200 yard rifle.

Load development at 100 yards was short and sweet.  THe standby load for most 338 EDGE's that Shawn builds are assembled around the 300g SMK, 92g H-1000, Rem case, CCI 250 primer.  I loaded up 2 loads with 4 shots each at 92-93g of H-1000.  They both shot 1/2 MOA with the 92g load having a bit lower ES.  Thats important when shooting LR so I decided to stick with 92g H-1000 for a velocity of 2840fps and ES of about 10.  I haven't had the need to look further into load development as everything I've pointed this rifle at rocks/steel out to 1000 yards, hits with authority, and more importantly, regularity.

Everybody has there definition of whats long range.  I wont get into that here...

Just showing my latest build and thought some of you 338 guys might like it!!

[anweis]

Its my new long range rifle for deer/elk/black bears out to 1200 yards. 

Why don't you get a bit closer? Within 400 yards, maybe? Do you have a dissability?
I wonder how many animals get poorly shot and injured by such people and toys.
That is not hunting. Merely shooting at live targets.

[kyotekiller25]

"Why don't you get a bit closer? Within 400 yards, maybe? Do you have a dissability?
I wonder how many animals get poorly shot and injured by such people and toys."


To answer your questions.  No I am not disabled.  Not as many as by the average joe who shoots a box of shells every year and doesn't know what his rifles doing past 100 yards...

[Graybeard]

While I REALLY HATE these discussions of shooting big game at such long ranges I just don't see how anyone in their wildest imagination can call it hunting. Call it what it is long range plinking at game animals. There is no way under the sun regardless of how accurate the rifle and how well you think you know the range you can assure bullet placement in the kill zone at 1200 yards. I'm sure you don't bother going to check and follow up after every single shot either. If you're too lazy to get closer I can't imagine you going to check to see if you wounded the animal after it runs off.

[Old English]

I think it looks like a great rifle, hitting small steel plates at long distances seems to indicate good rifle and shooter. I would love something like that for long distance target shooting.
For hunting, I will stick to lesser powered rifles at shorter range myself, but to each his own. The thrill of hunting for me is seeing the animal close, or just hearing it's footsteps through the woods, that gets my heart racing.

[Drilling Man]

While I REALLY HATE these discussions of shooting big game at such long ranges I just don't see how anyone in their wildest imagination can call it hunting. Call it what it is long range plinking at game animals. There is no way under the sun regardless of how accurate the rifle and how well you think you know the range you can assure bullet placement in the kill zone at 1200 yards. I'm sure you don't bother going to check and follow up after every single shot either. If you're too lazy to get closer I can't imagine you going to check to see if you wounded the animal after it runs off.

  My feeling EXACTLY!!!

  DM

[Bart Solo]

kyotekiller25

You get the feeling you are catching a little flak here. The rifle looks great, but 1500-1200 yard shots isn't hunting. It is just isn't. 

You are right the average Joe really isn't competent much beyond 100 or 200 yards--300 yards max.  Of course, whitetail don't have defenses in depth. They don't shoot back.

Of course most of us average Joes have the skill it takes to get much closer.  Your heart pumps a lot more taking an off hand shot at 75 yards than any 1200-1500 yard shot from a rock solid rest.  Twenty years ago in Wyoming I spotted a really good antelope about 400 yards away.  I was able to slip through ravines and move around a series of small hills for a 50 yard shot.  Had I done anything wrong or had the wind changed he would have run. That was a more satisfying hunt than taking a much longer shot that might have missed.  I still remember that hunt like it was yesterday.

Anyway I have to agree your's is a beautiful rifle.   

[nomosendero]

This is kinda like talking about a Mercedes on a VW site. Nothing wrong with a VW or a Mercedes, just different group with different interests.

Anyone though should appreciate a nice rifle & I know the builder is known worldwide for his very accurate rifles. And for targets the edge as a cartridge is coming into it's own, like the 338 Lapua. As far as what distance we should limit ourselves too, I hate those discussions as there is no yardage where I say this is the max for everyone. Once you do that, then other "hunters" want to limit cartridges, which can tricle down to a 7 mag before it's over & as one legislater said, anything used over 200 yards is a "sniper rifle" by some political idiots. Let's don't give them ammo.

As a bow hunter, Mz hunter, handgun hunter & rifle hunter I appreciate it all as they offer diff. challanges.
With each weapon I have a maximum yardage in mind & with each weapon some who specialize in one of those can safely stretch the yardage beyond what I will. And especially when it comes to centerfire rifles, opinions vary alot & I see statements about hunting and shooting. Some here think you are just shooting as close as 250-300 yards. I am not smart enough to know exactly where this line is drawn & I have my doubts others do, rather I decide under the conditions & with the equipment in my hands whether or not I can acquire a quick kill. That's what counts. I strongly agree that there are far more so called hunters who wound Deer every year who may not be able to hit a "pie plate" at 50 yards than long range hunters wounding Deer. For the sake of numbers get mad at those clowns.

While the yardage mentioned is beyond the distance that I shoot game, that doesn't matter at all, nope! No doubt I can and do harvst animals beyond what most here would like, but that also doesn't matter either. I am not prepared to start drawing lines & YOU aren't going to like it if we go that direction.

Let's just make sure we can make the shots we do take. 

Kyote, I sent you a PM

[no guns here]

Wow... touchy subject.  I personally can't see being able to or needing to make shots on game animals at those distances regardless of accuracy or energy.  I'm not saying that it can't be done.  I'm not saying that is hasn't been done or that you can't do it.  I poke around on 6mmbr.com quite often and see some of the amazing things that benchrest shooters can do at 1000 yds but that ain't hunting.  That's shooting.  Measured distances, wing flags, mirage shields, heavy guns, special actions, VLD bullets etc.  At those distances the animal has time to take extra steps or move or turn while the bullet is still getting there.  Heart shot may become a paunch shot and an animal left to die.  In fairness, poor shots can happen at 200 yds as well.  Trajectory and ranging become critical at those distances with a matter of a few yards resulting in a miss or a wounded animal.  Just because it CAN be done doesn't necessarily mean that it SHOULD be done.  I won't talk bad about anyone doing such things but I won't condone it either.  I'll keep killing deer and hogs at way less than 100 yards with boring regularity.  I personally would like to see humane, killing shots made at 1200 yards on deer sized animals on broken terrain not on a range.  Yep, I know that trained snipers kill at that distance and farther.  I also know that they miss a lot and wound a lot at those ranges.  That works for me in war.  Heck, I WANT to get a hit, any hit on my target then.  When it comes to big game animals, wounding doesn't work for me.  Guess what I'm saying is... glad you can do it.  I won't hunt that way and won't support anyone else doing so.  I won't try to stop you from doing so either.  One of those times when I just have to shut my mouth and let people do what they're gonna do even if I don't agree with it.  It's the beauty of America right?

ngh

[anweis]

Once you do that, then other "hunters" want to limit cartridges, which can tricle down to a 7 mag before it's over & as one legislater said, anything used over 200 yards is a "sniper rifle" by some political idiots. Let's don't give them ammo.

Yesterday i was thinking about exactly that. No, we don't want regulations on calibers, and shooting distance, and all that. To avoid that, we need to behave ethically. If you don't want the anti-hunting dogs to bite, don't wake them up with 1000 yard shots at animals. Same for anti-gun dogs. If we don't keep our guns safe and locked, and some 14 year old idiots use them for murder, we are responsible for the crap storm that follows.

[nomosendero]

Once you do that, then other "hunters" want to limit cartridges, which can tricle down to a 7 mag before it's over & as one legislater said, anything used over 200 yards is a "sniper rifle" by some political idiots. Let's don't give them ammo.

Yesterday i was thinking about exactly that. No, we don't want regulations on calibers, and shooting distance, and all that. To avoid that, we need to behave ethically. If you don't want the anti-hunting dogs to bite, don't wake them up with 1000 yard shots at animals. Same for anti-gun dogs. If we don't keep our guns safe and locked, and some 14 year old idiots use them for murder, we are responsible for the crap storm that follows.

Actually, we need to behave period & regardless of weapons & distance. We have a retirement community closeby
occupied by Nothern Immigrants. They finally decided that they needed to allow a "urban bowhunt" to take out some of the flowerpot brousers. Well, if they see one Deer run through their yard with an arrow in it, they will whine, whether
that Deer live 30 seconds or 30 minutes, they will whine. The same with rifles, whether one is wounded at close range
(a bunch of those) or at 1,000 yards, they will always have their ammo. They won't know if you are waking them to 1,000 yard shots or 400 yards & they would view those or even 200 yards as sniper rifle stuff anyway. They aren't out
there with range finders.

And yea, it is logical & right to lock guns up, but I guess I am old fashioned & I still believe in individual responsibility. I
believe the person that stole the gun & committed a crime with it are the ones that did the crime. If that's not true, then you can't ever leave one in a vehichle or anything else, Liberal insanity in my view.

[Bart Solo]

I sure hope you aren't saying that you believe you have a right to leave your loaded firearm in plain view in an unlocked vehicle.  If so I have to respectfully disagree with the notion that anybody should ever leave firearm lying about in plain view in an unlocked vehicle. Of course,  the person who steals the weapon and uses it in a crime or accidental discharge is primarily responsible, but the person who irresponsibly left the firearm lying around is also responsible.  Claiming a gun owner doesn't have any duty to the rest of the community to keep his firearms safe is simply using a phony claim of "individual responsibility" as an excuse for being utterly irresponsible. 

I know if some little kid crawled into my truck and shot his friend with the shotgun slung on my rack,  I would never forgive myself. And if it was my kid who got shot, well I pity the fool who left his truck unlocked with a loaded gun in plain view.

Sorry for the rant, but I really do believe we all have a duty to one and other to make firearms ownership as safe as possible.     

[nomosendero]

I sure hope you aren't saying that you believe you have a right to leave your loaded firearm in plain view in an unlocked vehicle.  If so I have to respectfully disagree with the notion that anybody should ever leave firearm lying about in plain view in an unlocked vehicle. Of course,  the person who steals the weapon and uses it in a crime or accidental discharge is primarily responsible, but the person who irresponsibly left the firearm lying around is also responsible.  Claiming a gun owner doesn't have any duty to the rest of the community to keep his firearms safe is simply using a phony claim of "individual responsibility" as an excuse for being utterly irresponsible. 

I know if some little kid crawled into my truck and shot his friend with the shotgun slung on my rack,  I would never forgive myself. And if it was my kid who got shot, well I pity the fool who left his truck unlocked with a loaded gun in plain view.

Sorry for the rant, but I really do believe we all have a duty to one and other to make firearms ownership as safe as possible.     

Never said otherwise & never mentioned an unlocked vehicle. I leave a handgun in my Yukon alot while I am working, locked & hid. My point is a thug can figure out a way to steal a gun & break in to my vehicle, but I have a right to concealed carry or to leave guns in my home locked. Like I said, when someone then steals the gun, the person pulling the trigger committed the crime in my non-liberal mind.

I said at the beginning that it is good & it is right to leave your guns locked up, so I don't understand your questioning me or the purpose of your rant in those circumstances since I thought it was clear. Leaving a gun loaded and exposed is stupid & no different than leaving the windows down so a kid could drive it into a building! 

[no guns here]

So if a guy breaks into my house and steals a kitchen knife and then kills a person on the street, I'm responsible?  Based upon that line of reasoning the airlines are responsible for 9/11 as well as every hijacking.  I understand what you are trying to get across but I think that this concept of liability has been foisted upon us by the anti's and liberals over the years.  At whatever point my property becomes your property (legally or illegally) I should not be responsible for your actions with that property.  A teen aged boy would be liable if a mugger stole his wallet and used the condom in there to have sex and then gave a woman AIDS...

If I leave the keys to my car on my desk and someone steals my keys and then my car and then drove into to a crowded street market, my responsibility should end at the point the thief picked up my keys. 
If I LOAN my car to you (a legally licensed driver with no criminal history) and you cause an accident that kills a family of four, am I responsible? 
Am I responsible if I loan you a gun and you then climb into a book repository and start shooting passers-by with it?
If you come into my yard and steal the axe that I put down during my lunch (cutting wood) and then kill the old lady next door, am I responsible?  An axe is a deadly weapon just as is a firearm...  it should be treated the same, right?
Should we have to have a "safe" for our garden tools, kitchen knifes, baseball bats, archery equipment etc?
It it has an edge on it or is heavy enough to be used as a deadly weapon we should have to secure it just like our guns right?

I say NO!  I say that this (not sure of the legal term so don't flame me for this) implied liability for the actions of others it something has been pushed upon us by activist juries and judges.  I say that once a person steals my property I have NO say over that property's use whether for good or for bad.

I have two safes for my guns, one in America and one here in Germany.  The one in America is by choice.  I don't want the guns stolen.  Not because I feel that I have to keep them from being stolen and then used to commit a crime but because they are valuable in one way or another to me.  I also have it to keep my guns from public view to keep folks from getting itchy fingers.  It also is there to keep my kids or other kids from getting curious and stupid.  I don't want one dead on accident.  The one in Germany is to comply with the German gun laws since they believe that I should be responsible for the actions of a thief after he has committed a crime.  Once my gun, car, axe, machete, bowie knife, spear, Louisville Slugger or even my pocketknife (what about that heavy crystal vase I bought my wife? Now that could do some DAMAGE if someone got hit over the head with it)  is out of my possession by either legal or illegal means; how can I be held responsible for another person's actions (unless I am somehow legally responsible for the actions of that person)?  This makes no sense to me... I know there are some liberals out there that will say "but it was a GUN!"  Of course they would argue that they weren't responsible if someone stole their truck and crashed into a crowd of school kids, right?

off the soap box,
ngh

[anweis]

So if a guy breaks into my house and steals a kitchen knife and then kills a person on the street, I'm responsible?  Based upon that line of reasoning the airlines are responsible for 9/11 as well as every hijacking. 

No, but between the airlines and those in charge for their security, they allowed that to happen. On August 5, 2001 i flew across US, changing 3 planes. Only on my landing did i realize that i had a large pocket knife in a hip belt with me.  Had i tried that in most other countries, i would have spend a lot of time explaining...The bastards used box cutters.
If you allow a firearm to commit a crime, if you allow a crime to be committed, you are responsible.

[Bart Solo]

I never mentioned anything about a firearm that was  properly secured.  I was talking about the yahoo who drives a pick up truck with a loaded firearm in a gun rack to town and leaves the vehicle unlocked as he goes shopping.  Being an adult requires responsibility.  There is a world of difference between my example and the guy who breaks into your house and steals your gun from a locked safe. 

A little kid was recently killed in our town when his curious 8 year old cousin found a loaded pistol in a drawer.  Now, I wonder how the little kid's parents feel. Especially the dad who was away in Iraq. It seems he left the loaded gun in the drawer so his wife could protect herself while he was overseas.  The family lived in a nice middle class neighborhood. Low crime. Any damn fool should have realized that the chances of the wife using the loaded gun in home defense were far less than some little kid getting a hold of it in a family filled with little kids and their friends.  I wonder how that dad feels now that his son is dead and his wife is a mental wreck.  Do you think he might feel a little responsible?

[Swampman]

While I REALLY HATE these discussions of shooting big game at such long ranges I just don't see how anyone in their wildest imagination can call it hunting. Call it what it is long range plinking at game animals. There is no way under the sun regardless of how accurate the rifle and how well you think you know the range you can assure bullet placement in the kill zone at 1200 yards. I'm sure you don't bother going to check and follow up after every single shot either. If you're too lazy to get closer I can't imagine you going to check to see if you wounded the animal after it runs off.

Graybeard's right on the money here.

[no guns here]

Last time I checked, firearms don't commit crimes, people do.  My point is:  ANYTHING can be used to commit a crime.  How many people have been smothered with a pillow?  Who is responsible if a man smothers his wife with a pillow?  The man.  What if he stole that pillow from a neighbor first?  Is the neighbor responsible because he didn't lock up a deadly instrument of death?  It shouldn't matter what instrument is used in the crime, if a crime was committed to obtain that instrument, you shouldn't be held liable.

For the kid that got killed.  The parents are legally responsible for the actions of the child so that wasn't a crime.  Not storing the gun properly so as to prevent the accident was the crime.  The punishment that child's parents will endure every second of every day for the rest of their lives is too much for the crime of leaving a gun in a drawer.  That's one of the reasons I keep mine in safes.  I want to prevent accidents.  I also want to prevent getting charged with some stupid crime if some crack-head or meth-head breaks in and steals my .45 and then commits more crimes with it.  I shouldn't have to worry about that.  He should.  If he stole it, then he is responsible for whatever happens after that, not me.  If this type of stuff keeps going, what are you going to do when some freak steals your toolbox.  If he uses that hammer to beat someone, you are responsible.  If he uses the screwdriver to jimmy a lock and steal from someone else, you are responsible.  What if he uses that box knife to hijack a plane and blow up a building???  Well by jimminy, you are GUILTY since you allowed that crime to happen by not putting your tool box in a safe while you went to lunch at the diner.  You just killed those 3,000 people and should therefore be tried for manslaughter at the least...

Just because it is a GUN doesn't mean that we should have a double standard for responsibility of use after it is stolen...

ngh

[DalesCarpentry]

Last time I checked, firearms don't commit crimes, people do.  My point is:  ANYTHING can be used to commit a crime.  How many people have been smothered with a pillow?  Who is responsible if a man smothers his wife with a pillow?  The man.  What if he stole that pillow from a neighbor first?  Is the neighbor responsible because he didn't lock up a deadly instrument of death?  It shouldn't matter what instrument is used in the crime, if a crime was committed to obtain that instrument, you shouldn't be held liable.

For the kid that got killed.  The parents are legally responsible for the actions of the child so that wasn't a crime.  Not storing the gun properly so as to prevent the accident was the crime.  The punishment that child's parents will endure every second of every day for the rest of their lives is too much for the crime of leaving a gun in a drawer.  That's one of the reasons I keep mine in safes.  I want to prevent accidents.  I also want to prevent getting charged with some stupid crime if some crack-head or meth-head breaks in and steals my .45 and then commits more crimes with it.  I shouldn't have to worry about that.  He should.  If he stole it, then he is responsible for whatever happens after that, not me.  If this type of stuff keeps going, what are you going to do when some freak steals your toolbox.  If he uses that hammer to beat someone, you are responsible.  If he uses the screwdriver to jimmy a lock and steal from someone else, you are responsible.  What if he uses that box knife to hijack a plane and blow up a building???  Well by jimminy, you are GUILTY since you allowed that crime to happen by not putting your tool box in a safe while you went to lunch at the diner.  You just killed those 3,000 people and should therefore be tried for manslaughter at the least...

Just because it is a GUN doesn't mean that we should have a double standard for responsibility of use after it is stolen...

ngh

No Guns Here. I agree 110% with everything you have said. Dale

[kyotekiller25]

Its obvious none of you know anything about LRH so I'll just keep at it with what I do successfully, and you guys can continue to do what you all do successfully.

You dont know me as much as I dont know you. 

As far as I'm concerned, I buy a hunting liscense/tag, I'm legal, I'm having fun, I'm packing my rifle, I"m HUNTING.  Thanks for all your great comments though... 

I am not lazy to go check up on a wounded animal whether it be 800 or 300 yards.  The number I have currently lost to date are ZERO, ZIP, NADA.  When I miss, I miss just like everyone else whether its close or far.  Never said I didn't miss.  When I know I hit something, I follow it up and retrieve my animal.  Its not any different... 

You guys can keep coming up with all these "what ifs" but what if Rosie Odonnel lost 300lbs???  What if the sun never came up??  What if , what if, what if....

Dont assume anything cant be done on a regular basis just because YOU cant do it, or dont want to learn the proper way to even go about doing it...Think thats what they call simple minded or something....

I get a thrill out of LRH the same as people do when bowhunting.  If I wanted to get that close to animals, I'd bow hunt.  But I dont like to bow hunt and dont care to get that close.  Its not my thing.  I like to kill animals from a ways a way and the way I go about doing that is with hundreds of rounds a year at inatimate objects out to 1000 yards and a few special pieces of equipment that HELP you make reliable 1 shot kills at a little beyond what the average schmuck does... I also dont drive Chevy.  So sue me...

[Swampman]

"Its obvious none of you know anything about LRH"

It ain't hunting.  It's shooting at live animals at nonsporting distances.  It's irresponsible.

This I know.

[Tunaman]

To each His own. I have a few friends that are very much into LRH. Both have recieved extensive training at the hands of our Government and are extremly good shots. I have spotted for both on numerous occasions and I can tell you that they are almost surgical at 800-100 yrds. They have invested in serious equiptment in there pursuit of there sport. They both have range finders that are very precise, Spotting scopes that are very high dollar and rifles that are second to none. One shoots a 338 edge and one a 7mm Allen.  Both rifles have Night force scopes on there rifles. These guys shoot 1000's of rounds to prepare for those few shots that they take at living animals.  Neither of these guys take a chance when shooting at an animal. If the shot is even remotley questionable, they do not take a shot. What I find amazing is just how calm these animals are when you are 800-1000 yards from them. You can actually pattern them and actualy determine when the opertune time to take a shot is.

I do not hunt at ranges like this. I have shot with these guys on a regular basis but I am not effective to those ranges. I feel comfortable to about 600 yards with there rifles but much less with any of my rifles. The equeptment and practice make a huge difference. I would like to have a true LRH rifle built one day but I will likely never hunt much past 500 yards. Where I hunt, we just don't have a lot of oppertunities to hunt at these extended ranges. I disagree with those that say that these guys are not hunters. The research that most of these guys do to get into a shooting position is pretty impressive. A lot of these guys are better hunters than the average guy down here that sits in a shooting house and just waits for a deer to come out on a field and takes a 70-100 yrd shot, and far better hunters than a bunch of guys that sit over a corn feeder and kills at 50 yrds. While it is different it is no better nor worse.

[wyohandi]

I have to add my 2cents here in your defense, with the proper equipment shots over 1000yds
are very makeable. Most people won't call it hunting, because THEIR definition of hunting is
getting as close as possible (outsmarting the animal). As far as calling it just shooting live targets,
I really don't see how its any different than sitting in a permanent box blind or shooting tower
and waiting on the animals to come to a food plot or field. Thats waiting not hunting IMO.
For some 200yds might as well be a mile. I can hit my 8"x8" steel plate at 600yds with boring
regularity and solid hits out to 1000yds aren't any different with the right equipment
if the wind isn't too bad, and I wouldn't attempt a hunting shot in much wind at that range.
But on a calm day I wouldn't hesitate to take a shot out to 800Yds on a game animal, farther than
that I think my 300SAUM is running out of steam to do the job effectively.
I also bowhunt and handgun hunt, for me the rush is in the hunt, 10yds or 800yds the feeling
is the same. Anyone who bashes anothers choice of hunting style IS closedminded and only
fueling the antihunting and antigunners fire.IMHO