Author Topic: Savage smokeless muzzle loader (Read 5641 times)

Questor · « **on:** August 04, 2003, 06:50:39 AM »

This will be heresy to some, but I like the idea of the Savage smokeless powder muzzle loader. Are you using one, or have you heard anything about them?

Charlie Detroit · « **Reply #1 on:** August 04, 2003, 11:36:27 AM »

I can't see the point...why would anybody want to use smokeless in a muzzleloader?
Of course, there are certain strange old, old, old men that have a raging prejudice against Black Powder...they might think it was a good idea.

Charles/NM · « **Reply #2 on:** August 04, 2003, 11:42:37 AM »

You need to go to the Savage Muzzleloader forum to get good info on those popular rifles.
I've shot a Savage ML but prefer my traditional sidelock. At 125 yards my vintage T/C Hawken .50 will kill 2# coffee cans just as accurate as the ML will.
Link to the Savage ML forum:
http://www.dream-tools.com/tools/messages.mv?index+savagemuzzleloader

Charlie Detroit · « **Reply #3 on:** August 04, 2003, 11:54:54 AM »

I can't see the point...why would anybody want to use smokeless in a muzzleloader?
Of course, there are certain strange old, old, old men that have a raging prejudice against Black Powder...they might think it was a good idea.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #4 on:** August 04, 2003, 05:45:57 PM »

Quote from: Questor

This will be heresy to some, but I like the idea of the Savage smokeless powder muzzle loader. Are you using one, or have you heard anything about them?

They are well-made guns-- extremely so. http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com has a ton of info on them.

As for "smokeless," who can say what Triple 7 is really made of anyway?

Synthetic "blackpowder substitutes" have opened the door. A Triple 7 pellet is as far away as you can get from "blackpowder" - - - and many 12 ga. shotshells are STILL labeled "3 dram equivalents." Smokeless has been a "blackpowder substitute" for decades and decades.

sport240 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 04, 2003, 05:48:02 PM »

As far as I'm concerned...get a centerfire rifle...it's basically the same thing...same powder, in some cases same bullet...just the loading that is different...it's out of smoke-pole territory for me....no interest...I don't even consider them as "muzzleloaders" per se...just a way to get around legislation I guess...

Sport240

Questor · « **Reply #6 on:** August 05, 2003, 07:42:30 AM »

I don't see any reason not to use smokeless. It implies less maintenance to the gun. My only interest in muzzle-loaders is that they allow me to participate in another deer season. I also don't like the explosive qualities of black powder. Likewise, I don't see any breech of faith in the "primitive weapons" concept. You still get only one shot with it. That's just as primitive as a black powder Hawken.

crow_feather · « **Reply #7 on:** August 05, 2003, 11:36:50 PM »

Do you realize that you are a living advertisement for the tradionalist black powder fringe? They will label you as lazy (less maintenance), greedy (my only interest etc.), and not all that smart (getting only one shot is as primitive as a Hawken).

I prefer the less modern style of black powder rifle. However, I will not join the rank of those that would call you vile names just because you differ from the average person for whom the black powder season's were initiated.

Who would have thought that a law to allow hunters to hunt deer in a special season so that they could use their great great grandfather's rifle to take deer would bring such disagreement among us hunters.

I wish you success in the next season. May you glass that 10 pointer across the canyon, find him again in your 10 power scope and shoot that 44 caliber bullet at 2600 feet per second, swiftly dispatching your deer. Then you can sit back and enjoy the thrill and nostolgia of hunting with a muzzleloader.

C F

Charles/NM · « **Reply #8 on:** August 06, 2003, 04:25:06 AM »

I suspect you guys who are ranting and raving against smokeless powder Savage ML and MLII arms have never even held one, much less shot one. They ARE very much muzzle loaders in every sense of the word. They take much work to develope an accurate load just like traditional black powder arms do. It's a moot point here in New Mexico anyway since smokeless powder is illegal for hunting in the muzzle loader season. Every one of the in-line shooters who have shot my sidelock percussion rifle have grinned from ear to ear afterwards. You attract more bees with honey than vinegar.
Lighten up Dudes!

Questor · « **Reply #9 on:** August 06, 2003, 11:14:39 AM »

Cool! I haven't started a fight in quite a while.

Regardless of the traditional aspects, the game department in my state has a deer season that requires a muzzle loader. That's all that matters to me. A single-shot muzzle loader based on smokeless is functionally identical to any other muzzle loader. In it's non-functional aspects, it makes life easier on the owner as far as maintenance is concerned. To paraphrase Al Goerg, the father of modern handgun hunting, the guns of tradition are fine things, but I'd rather make my own traditions.

Dragon31 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 06, 2003, 12:39:37 PM »

First, of all I like to hunt. Second, off after 30 years in the military (active and reserve), I hate cleaning "guns". That said, I started hunting with a traditional TC .45 cal side hammer that was accurate enough but I hated to clean a deer and then have to clean the "gun" before it rusted. I put the TC over the fire place, purchased a stainless Encore .50 cal. and started shooting the pellets an sabots. Deer still went down and the "gun" still had to be cleaned on a regular bases (that is until some friends taught me some things about the encore than I can't write about here). Then the Savage came along. I bought a stainless steel version as soon as I could get my hands on one and I never looked back. It is still a muzzle loader, it still has to be clean (beginning of season and the end) and the deer still go down. The muzzle velocity maybe a bit greater (Triple 7 cut any advantage). It maybe a bit more accurate, all three of my muzzle loaders wear 4X scopes and I can't tell much difference from the bench. Seating a bullet in the Savage is much harder because ot the need for a tight seal and the recoil is more like a centerfire rifle than a muzzle loader shooting blackpowder. The only difference in it and any other in line is that it can handle smokeless powder. If you like you can put black powder or other black powder down the muzzle, of course you may like to clean more than I do.

Questor · « **Reply #11 on:** August 06, 2003, 04:11:49 PM »

Thanks for the tip on the hard seating, Dragon31. I'm just gathering data now and every bit helps.

KING · « **Reply #12 on:** August 14, 2003, 06:36:44 PM »

:-) Actually...I dont own one for obviouse reasons.but have shot them,and also watched a couple of the guys that purchased em play around with them................after 5 months they are still in the" playing" mode. It shot like a modern rifle to me,and was a little difficult to load,but if you like to tinker with stuff it might be fun. It was an interesting rifle to look at and work on(one guy has almost as much fun as I do developing loads) As for hunting with one.....not in this lifetime for me. It denotes the same ethics as spotting a bear from a helicopter and shooting the bear from that platform. I suppose it could be called hunting.......on some planet. ....................stay safe....................king :-D :-D

Dragon31 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 15, 2003, 04:38:21 AM »

King:
Just for the fun of it I took my four (actually I have five) muzzle loaders to the range Wednesday after posting and listen to the comments on this board.
These are the guns that I took and the results, and why I like the Savage.

Encore 209 X 50
Ruger .45 cal pistol
Savage 10ML
TC Hawkins .45
Gonic arms .45 cal, 16 inch barrel for the contender. (left at home) It still new in the box and unfired. Will probably stay that way.

First the Hawkins would not fire. I took the nipple off, did ever thing I could think of but could not get it to fire. The cap goes off and the fire is not getting down the barrel to the powder charge. I pulled the bullet and the powder and could not blow through the barrel, which is some how being obstructed near the flash hole. So put that one away and pull out the Encore.

Fire about 20 round of 100 grains of 777 and TC Minne ball at 50 yard using a Weaver 4X scope in 4 X 4 rings on a VV mount. Most of the shoot touched each other and when they didn't it was the shooter fault. Switched to three 30 grain Pryodex pellets and the impact area change with slightly larger group. Blow back in the action was terrible, getting on the bottom of the scope and on my hands and down in the action. Had to run a patch down the barrel about every 5th shoot.

The Savage wears a Leupold 3 x 9 compact variable in 4 x 4 Weaver Mount on a base that came with the gun. At 50 yards it was boring, load shoot, load shoot. The hole was the same, I had to change target to see that I was really hitting the same place.
Time ran out so I didn't use the Ruger.

Yesterday I ran a patch down the Savage and put it away. I tried to disassemble the Encore but the Plug is frozen, I dissassembled the Encore as far as I could and put Kroil oil aroung the plug hopeing that it will loosen up enough to come apart today. The action of the Encore went into the sink of hot water and a good scrubbing, then drying and reassemble.
The Hawkin, well I'm thinking.
Yes my Savage will shoot one inch groups at 100 yards and I had to do only two things to it. I adjusted the trigger myself and had the barrel lapped. Now saying that I let some one much younger than myself do the shooting. I just do not see that well any more.
For my money and time the Savage is the only way to go.

crow_feather · « **Reply #14 on:** August 15, 2003, 08:40:32 AM »

Dragon31

If you had fouled the bore of your Savage, would you have quit on it and gone on to the Hawkin?

Actually, if a person knows how to work with a black powder sidelock, it also does not have to be cleaned until the season is over. Do you think the mountain men cleaned Ol Buckbuster every time they shot their rifles? They didn't have to and the rifles didn't rust. But you can't treat a side lock like a modern rifle.

Enjoy your rifle in the regular season in my state. Our fish and Game does not consider the savage a black powder rifle. Did you know that you could load a Remington 30-06 from the muzzle? Does that make it a muzzle loader?
C F

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #15 on:** August 16, 2003, 08:00:22 PM »

Dragon,

That was a good report. I am curious, why all the blowback from your Encore, or am I just reading improperly?

Most folks who rant about the Savage unfavorably have indeed never shot one. There is certainly no reason for anybody to get testy when somebody is shooting at paper-- or hunting regular season. Yet, they STILL do!

It varies by individual State, but many States have no "primitive season," and never have had. It is one shot, one tag, and most of those animals are harvested sub-100 yards (or sub-50 yards). How the "other guy" chooses to do his thing seems a strange obsession. If it is a legal option-- no one has the right to tell an individual "how they need to do it." America was founded based on choices-- that's the great American Tradition: free choice and self-determination.

Dragon31 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 17, 2003, 05:17:12 AM »

Randy:

I don't know why the blowback from the Encore. I purchased this one in stainless steel when they first came out and it has always "leaked". It is really bad when I shoot 300 grain sabots and 150 grain of Pryodex. I'm going to try a new Breach Plug and see if that helps. That is if I can get the current plug out this afternoon.

I've bouble checked the Hawken and made sure that I pulled all of the bullets and dumped the powder. I fired a cap in it and it moved the dust on the floor so I'll make a run to the range next week and try again.

I have a question if any of you know the answer. I hunt with a small female that needs a short stocked Savage 10ML for comfortable shooting. I can't find on their web site if they make it with a short stock. Anyone know?

simonkenton · « **Reply #17 on:** August 17, 2003, 10:45:40 AM »

I bought a Savage last week. It is the first inline I have owned. I like it.
I have been shooting black powder since 1967. I have killed 12 deer and hogs with a TC Hawken, and with a Dixie Tenn Mtn Rifle, that I built myself. That is a pretty rifle.
I am 52 and my vision is getting rough. I can't see the sights of my beautiful mountain rifle well enough to be accurate. I don't like peep sights. I have to have a scope. Scopes look real weird on a Hawken, don't even mention putting one on the mtn rifle.
This lead me to an inline. I figured I may as well get one that you don't have to clean.
This rifle comes with a plastic stock, I will replace it with a walnut stock. I already replaced the crappy plastic ramrod, which rattles, with a hickory rod that I bought from Dixie and made up with a brass jag. I need some brass and hickory and walnut on my inline to get it tuned in.
With the 3-9 scope, it is superior on one shot to the sidelock. It has more power and accuracy at long range. If you get out into the 150 yard plus range it will do the job every time.
However, it still loads like any other muzzle loader. It doesn't like a warm barrel. You better make that first shot, because you need to let the barrel cool for 5 minutes or more before you can make a second accurate shot. At the range, I carry a cooler with ice cubes, and after firing I hold an ice cube to the barrel for 10 seconds to cool it right down, as ridiculous as that sounds. Other, more patient guys, just wait 10 minutes between shots.
I will use this rifle throughout the centerfire season this year, the season here lasts 4 and a half months. I will give this gun a workout in the deer woods very soon, believe me.
I know, that when it is 7 pm, and I am gutting a deer by my headlights, and throw him in the truck with a few ice bags before I drive 4 hours back home, I will be glad that I don't have to clean my rifle that night.
My mtn. rifle sits in a place of honor, above the mantle of the stone fireplace I built, in the log cabin I built. I don't shoot it any more, because for me it is no longer accurate.

Charles/NM · « **Reply #18 on:** August 18, 2003, 06:46:57 AM »

Several things caught my attention in this thread:
First is the frozen breech plug on the Encore. You must use Never Seize or the pink Teflon tape T/C and others sell on any threaded part that comes in contact with 777 powder residue. I've even had the nipple in my T/C Hawken freeze with 777. I don't use the stuff anymore and have gone back to my old reliable stanby - loose Pyrodex RS.
Second is the barrels on the Savage ML. Stainless ML barrels MUST Be lapped and polished with JB Bore Paste or whatever to smooth them out. The blued barrels don't need to be lapped.
Extensive testing has shown that black MML sabots work best and don't burn or distort. Swabbing with Rusty Duck between shots seems to help keep an ML happy.
Last but not least, I've NEVER had my T/C Hawken fail to fire. Ever. I've even used ancient Italian made CVA #11 caps with BP, 777 and 5 year old Pyrodex - still no misfires. And everyone knows that you really should clean a blued steel muzzle loader barrel after every outing if you want to keep the barrel in any kind of shape. I use yellow T/C Bore Butter for lube and still clean after every outing. My 25 year old T/C rifle's bore looks the same as it did when it was new.
Am I ranting?
Charles/NM

Dragon31 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 18, 2003, 02:04:47 PM »

Charles/NM

I don't mean to prolong this thread or to put down what other like to hunt with, I think that anything that increases the participation in the shooting sports is a plus for all of us.
In reply to your observation of the thread. I lubricated the Encore Breach plug with the lub that came with the rifle when I puchased it new about three or four years ago. I still have some left. I split the wrench that came with the Encore today trying to get the plug out. Plug is stuck tighter than a tick in a dog's ear. Guess it has to go back to the company.
The Savage is a stainless steel model and I did not really have to have it lapped (I killed a deer with it two days of taking it out of the box). The lapping did ease the preasure needed to push the sabot down the tube and let me shoot tighter groups off the beanch.
The TC Hawken has failed me before. As I stated earlier I hunt with a small stature female. Two years ago we were hunting in a two "man" stand and two bucks came out into an open field that was a perfect shot for a new comer to Muzzle loading. She rested the rifle on the rim of the stand, cocked the hammer, pulled on the set trigger and squizzed the regular trigger. Cap went off but no BANG. I grabbed her gun and shoved the Encore in her hands, she cocked the Encore and popped one of the Bucks. The Hawken was loaded with Pyrodex and TC Minne balls. The Encore was the same.
When I shoot pool I hold my tongue funny, I think I may need to do the same when I shoot the Hawken.
Still need to know if any one sell a short stock for the Savage.

simonkenton · « **Reply #20 on:** August 18, 2003, 02:10:54 PM »

Dragon, what size stock do you want for the savage. At any rate, go over to rifle-stocks.com This is Richards Microfit, they will make you anything you want. You can get a nice walnut stock for $75. You will have to finish it, and inlet for the ramrod. One guy bought a Richards Microfit and did not inlet for the ramrod, he carries a collapsable ramrod while hunting.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #21 on:** August 19, 2003, 02:17:09 PM »

Quote from: Dragon31

Randy:

I don't know why the blowback from the Encore. I purchased this one in stainless steel when they first came out and it has always "leaked". It is really bad when I shoot 300 grain sabots and 150 grain of Pryodex. I'm going to try a new Breach Plug and see if that helps. That is if I can get the current plug out this afternoon.

That's just "not right." There should be no external blowback from an Encore at all. If it is going back to Thompson for the breechplug, I'd sure send them the entire gun.

Charles/NM · « **Reply #22 on:** August 19, 2003, 02:46:25 PM »

Dragon31,
I just came in from cleaning my Hawken after today's shooting session. I noticed that when I poured water down the barrel that it ran out the cleanout hole in a fast 1/8" diameter stream. I'm wondering if later Hawkens maybe have too small a flash hole. I've run a drill bit thru the hole in the past to make sure it was clear but don't remember the size. The bit easily goes all the way to the center of the powder chamber.
Holding your mouth right is a requirement for good shooting. Just don't take in a deep breath when the smoke cloud blows back over you. I did and gagged and choked for awhile. Fortunately I was shooting by myself.
Charles/NM

Dragon31 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 20, 2003, 03:56:43 AM »

After four days of soaking in liguid wrench, I got the pug out last night. The plug and gun is one of the early ones, if I understand your description of the plugs correctly. It has a deep concave face on the inside. The guns has a over sized hinge pin in it that helps groups when I shoot the heavy barreled .223, other than that everything is stock. Since it alway blew junk back in the action I just thought that was normal.

1GLOCK · « **Reply #24 on:** August 20, 2003, 05:18:33 AM »

I dont know much about the savage rifles but I do know that loading a BP Cannon with smokless powder is a very bad Idea because pressures can skyrocket so easily with smokless powders. Black powder being of limited pressure capabilities just seems safer to me, I just think its a matter of time before some moron takes the "smokless" as in ANY Smokless powder and dumps 100 grains of H110 in or mixes powders thinking that smokless powder is like black powder.

Dragon31 · « **Reply #25 on:** August 20, 2003, 06:11:06 AM »

1GLOCK
I have been a "moron" most of my life if you ask my mom. But, I earned those three magic letters after my name that give me the absolute academic right to be one (a moron that is). That said, the Savage has been tested for pressure and blows the sabot out the barrel a long time before the pressure becomes dangerous. Come on! think about this. A .270 winchester can generates in excess of 60,000 PSI that travels equally in all directions as per the gas laws. This means that the brass, on firing is pushed (or slammed) against the bolt face with this pressure as the bullet leaves the barrel. The bolt is locked into place with two locking lugs and the pressure takes the easy way out by pushing the bullet down the barrel. In the Savage the breach plug is sufficient to hold the back thrust and the sabot being much softer that a bullet gives way long before the pressure can become dangerous and blows out the barrel giving terrible accuracy.
What I do know from my experiences as a youthful "moron" was that when using smokeless powder in guns not designed for it was that the presure blows back out the hole in the breach plug and absolutely destroys the cap (including 209's). Real interesting when you are holding on to it.
Oh! by the way my field was Leadership and Administration with a minor in Mathematics. I say this because I retired this year and I no long have a secretary to correct my Spelling and English. I really didn't realize how bad my spelling had become until I went back and read some of what I had written.
Does this thing have a spell check on it?
I take no offense at the moron lable. In fact those moron's of the world teach us most of what we know. I have never liked to learn from others and always like to do it for myself. I question every thing and read much.

1GLOCK · « **Reply #26 on:** August 20, 2003, 09:59:25 AM »

Dragon31
I didnt say YOU were a moron but if the shoe fits... Hahaha just kidding. Like I said Im not familiar with the savage, I have a knight. Im just saying that I just had a guy injured badly by an expoding cannon that he substituted smokless powder for black powder in. The thing blew and lodged a 6" piece of steel in his chest, lucky hes not dead. Were talking a 1/2" thick carbon steel cannon with 1" bore and only paper wad. People just dont appreciate the power of smokeless powder. When confined too tightly it will build pressure untill it can release, black powder will stop building at about 95000. Anyone who owneds cannons knows that smokeless powder is a no no , what makes a muzzel loader different??Besides, the SMOKE is half the fun of shooting a muzzle loader, it just wouldnt be the same without that cloud!!! I mean really, if you dont want the fouling and smoke then buy a 45-70. Im the same as far as having to see it for myself, maybe if I used the savage Id like it but for now Ill stick with the Tried and true Knight.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #27 on:** August 20, 2003, 10:29:21 AM »

Quote from: 1GLOCK

Dragon31
Anyone who owneds cannons knows that smokeless powder is a no no , what makes a muzzel loader different??Besides, the SMOKE is half the fun of shooting a muzzle loader, it just wouldnt be the same without that cloud!!!

People (whether called morons or not) have been shooting smokeless in blackpowder guns for 100 years, as well as duplexing.

What makes the Savage "different," is that it was designed specifically for it from the start.

Dragon31 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 21, 2003, 04:20:55 AM »

1GLOCK

I think I remember the cannon thing. Southern Indiana or Southern Illinois wasn't it? I don't believe that I heard what they loaded it with. I just figured it was an over load of Black Powder in an old gun. Some members of my gun club are currently building a Whitworth. The trouble in comparing cannons is that they are really old (and may have metal fatigue) or made new by people who may not be knowledgeable about metals and the properties of explosives. I think Savage has the expertise to over come those short comings.
As far as pressure goes, the laws of Physics apply no matter what anyone tells you and all metal that is placed under repeated stress will fatigue and eventually give way. I was always amazed at what a small amount of C4 would do it you put it in a confinded space, and that it was so darn hard to light gun powder that was not in a confined space.

1GLOCK · « **Reply #29 on:** August 21, 2003, 10:56:16 AM »

yeah, you guys are probably right, Im just stuborn i guess.