Savage smokeless muzzle loader

[RandyWakeman]

yeah, you guys are probably right, Im just stuborn i guess.

Of course you are, but that's okay.

I happen to own "1 Glock," a pre-ban Glock 19. That "was" the "evil plastic gun" that should be banned, remember?

Well, it is not evil, is sure isn't all plastic, and it remains my favorite 9mm pistol.

[Frog123]

To answer your question. My partner at work has one, it was one of the first ones in this area. It was returned to the factory three times due to various problems. Despite all attempts the thing would not group, regardless of what was done bullets would strike off center or keyhole.. Eventually he had the chance to speak with an engineer at Savage concerning the gun. It took all of 10 months to get everything worked out. He found the only brand of sabots that the gun would not destroy and worked up a load for it. To watch him shoot is more like watching him reload centerfire ammo as each shot has to be individualy weighed  on a set of scales before being placed in a carrying tube. Now that all the bugs have been worked out the gun will shoot groups at 250yds that are better than most inlines at 100. He likes the ease in cleaning the best because the powder residue is almost non existent. I see why people have a hard time accepting this as a muzzleloader. I'm really surprised that more states haven't banned this gun during the primitive weapons season.

Frog

[Charles/NM]

In scanning the posts on this thread I don't remember seeing it mentioned that the Savage ML and the MLII are two entirely different rifle designs.  Discussion about one may have nothing to do with the other.
The ML is a .223 Savage centerfire rifle that was converted to a muzzle loader by duplicating the rear portion of the .223 case in the form of the primer module and installation of a breech plug and firing nozzle (?). The BATF isn't very happy about this rifle because it can be reconverted to a .233 by simply replacing the barrel.  It's mentioned on their web site. It loads and headspaces just like the centerfire .233 rifle.  There is no way to overload this rifle because, like was mentioned earlier, the sabot will fail before the rifle does. There are powder leakage issues with the primer modules with the original ML rifle.
The MLII is an entirely different animal. It locks the bolt in place with the bolt handle just like a 22lr bolt action rifle. This rifle is not as strong as the original ML but is plenty strong for recommended loads of BP or subs or IMR4227 smokeless powder or other similar action powders.
One of the earlier posters said he wanted this rifle because it didn't need to be cleaned.  That is only if you are using smokeless powder which is illegal in most states during the muzzle loader hunting season as it should be.
Charles/NM

[Dragon31]

Charles/NM:

It's good that you made the distinction between the orginal Savage ML and the ML II, they are really different guns.
As far as states that prohibit the use of Smokless powder for hunting they must be generally west of the MississippI.  I intend to hunt three state with the Savage this year (Indiana, Kentucky and South Carolina), and I am unaware of any prohibition in any of these states for using smokeless powder for deer.

And yes I really do hate to clean up after shooting black powder and pyrodex.

[simonkenton]

In South Carolina smokeless is prohibited during muzzleloading hunts in WMAs.
In the area I am hunting, there is no special muzzleloading season on private land, just 4 and a half months of "anything goes".

[Dragon31]

I'm in deed fortunate, I never have to hunt public lands or the WMA's.  My ladder stands are already set up in the three states that I kill deer in and and I have even questions myself if there is really any hunt to shooting deer ( I really hunt harder to kill squirrels and turkey than deer) we have names for most of the deer, we've seen them so much.  I'm also lucky in that my family likes to eat a lot of venison.  The muzzle loader is just another way to make it a challenge.  I have a 16 inch Gonic Arms muzzle loader barrels (never fired) that I may use this year to hunt with, just to see if I can kill one with it.  Only thing is it's black powder only.

[RandyWakeman]

The ML is a .223 Savage centerfire rifle that was converted to a muzzle loader by duplicating the rear portion of the .223 case in the form of the primer module and installation of a breech plug and firing nozzle (?). The BATF isn't very happy about this rifle because it can be reconverted to a .233 by simply replacing the barrel.  

Not "exactly," according to the following words of Bill Ball:

The original 10ML that first hit the market in the fall of 1999, did not fully comply with the BATFs' criteria for a muzzleloader. Savage submitted a 10ML to the BATF in the summer of 199 for evaluation and determination as to whether it was a muzzleloader and exempt from the ATF form 4473, whether it was a muzzleloader yet still required the AFT form 4473, or as to whether it was a modern firearm.

The BATF ruled that it was a true muzzleloader and did not require the ATF form 4473. A few months later, under pressure from other muzzleloader manufactures, the BATF reversed themselves. They stated, that because the receiver and the barrel are threaded, eventhough with a bastard thread, and had a bolt head that would accept .222 Rem, .222 Rem. Mag, and the .223 Rem case heads, it could possibly be converted back to a centerfire rifle by a gunsmtith, eventhough they admitted it was most unlikely it would ever happen. But despite that reversal, they gave the Savage 10ML a 1 year exemption of the requirement of the ATF form 4473.





This 1 year exemption was to allow us and Savage to modify the 10ML slightly to fully and completely comply with the BATF's criteria of a muzzleloading firearm. We started immediately working on making it fully and completely BATF compliant, yet maintain the strength and saftey, with no loss of performance. We did away with the percussion module, thus redesigned the breech plug to accept and contain the 209 primer only, the centerfire rifle bolt head was replaced with a solid round bolt head designed to hold a 209 primer (the interior of the receiver is round with no bolt locking lug rails), and instead of having locking lugs on the bolt head, the new redesigned 10ML used the bolt handle as the locking lug. Thus the Savage 10ML-II was designed.

This design was submitted to the BATF in early spring 2000 for evaluation and determination. The BATF ruled it was a fully and completely a true muzzlelaoding fiream, and exempt from the ATF form 4473 and any/all registration.

[Charles/NM]

Randy,
I have read that copy before as well as the BATF web site and the discussion on the Savage Muzzle Loading Board.  Other than not mentioning the 'bastard' barrel thread, the quote says exactly what I said in my Reader's Digest version only in many more words.  BTW, almost all center fire rifle receiver threads are in a way 'bastard' threads.
Charles/NM

[RandyWakeman]

Charles,

There really isn't much to debate, as the original ML-10 had a total production of only 3000 or so units, is obsolete, and there is hardly any reason to convert it to anything. A piece of pipe can be converted to a 12 ga. shotgun with less trouble, easier yet to a .22 rimfire. Not necessarily smart / good / safe . . . but aren't 100 year old cartridge guns non GCA, non 4473 arms? What is the issue?

One of my favorite muzzleloaders is the Encore, which of course is a form 4473 arm, with as easy a change to CF as can be hoped for.

[johnt]

Charles,

There really isn't much to debate,

as the original ML-10 had a total production of only 3000 or so units, is obsolete, and there is hardly any reason to convert it to anything. A piece of pipe can be converted to a 12 ga. shotgun with less trouble, easier yet to a .22 rimfire

Long live PRB. :-D  :-D  

[Charles/NM]

I agree there isn't much to debate.  The old ML had many problems.  The MLII is a much more user friendly rifle.  I guess my shooting buddy who has both should grease up the old ML and store it for the collector value it may have some day.
Charles/NM