Now what?? - Sighting In Model 700 Problems

[Turtle]

I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on a problem I'm having.  I've had my Remington Model 700 (7mm mag) for 20 plus yrs and this year I changed scopes.  Went from an old Tasco to a Leupold VXII (3x9x40).  I had the scope mounted at a local shop where they're known for doing good work.  They lapped the new rings and bore sighted for me saying "that should be pretty close". 

Well, yesterday I went out with my box of Federal Premium, 165 gr, Nosler Partitions and at 100yds I couldn't even hit a 2'x2' square.  It looked like it was shooting high and to the left so after several adjustments I still couldn't hit the 2'x2' square.  So I brought the target into 50 yds and after 8 more shots, I still couldn't hit the 2'x2' square.   

I've never experienced this before.  Usually after bore sighting, I'm at least "on the paper" but this is odd.  Scope rings are tight and I don't own my own bore sighter.  So what should I do?  Go back to the same place and have it bore sighted again? Try a different place??  Is there any way I can "bore sight" it myself to at least get it on the paper so I can adjust from there.

Opening day is a couple weeks away and once again I'm looking to the knowledge the Graybeard members to help.

Thanks Guys.

-turtle-

[mountainview]

I frequently use the poor mans boresighter. Place rifle on a solid rest and remove the bolt and make sure that the bore is lined up with the bullseye and is centered. Peer through the scope and check the alignment. Adjust as needed.

[Swampman]

I start at 25 yards and keep moving the target out.

[jasonprox700]

Take mountainview and swampman's advice.  After first mounting scope and if I boresight it, I always start at 25 yards.  I found you waste less ammo, and you get sighted in much faster.

[Val]

It could be a malfunctioning scope. If you have another scope, mount it in on the gun and give it a try. Be sure the bases and the rings are tight before changing scopes. Although using a boresighter is not complicated they may have screwed up at the gun shop. Take it back and have them reboresight is another approach.

[Turtle]

Good advice guys and thanks.  Last night after I returned from the field, I tried to do what mountainview explained but didn't have much luck.  How far is your target out when you use this method?

-turtle-

[Bart Solo]

I would take the rifle back to the shop and ask them to examine their work.  If your rifle was shooting well with the old scope, and it won't shoot as well with the new scope, the odds are there is something wrong with either the scope or the rings.   I am assuming you kept the same bases. 

I have known hunters who have gone to the woods without first firing at the range after the local gun store bore sighted their rifle.  They were disappointed with their shooting.  They shouldn't have been. Bore sighting is no substitute for sighting in at the range.  All bore sighting is intended to accomplish is to get the bullet on paper.  After that you have to fine tune. As said above start with 20-25 yards.  Worry about windage first. Then work on elevation.  Once you are happy with 25 yards move the target out.     

Oh, there is one trick I learned a long time ago.  Sand bag your rifle (or maybe use one of those rifle cradles.) Fire a shot at the target. Without moving the rifle, center the cross hairs on the first bullet hole. That lines the scope up with the bore.  It saves ammunition and time. 

[no guns here]

First thing you should do is to mechanically center the Leupold.  I do that before I ever fire a round.  THEN I use the poor man's boresight.  I align it with bags to point at a target.  I usually try for a corner of a target.  I take out the bolt and then alternate looking through the bore and centering the target point with viewing through the scope and aligning the reticle with the target point.  Don't touch the rifle just bend over and look.  I usually do this at 25 yards if I can.  I move the reticle as required.  Once you are satisfied that everything is lined up.  Move to 100 and repeat.  This normally gets me within two or three inches.  Then I start shooting at 50 and move out to 100 once I'm good at 50.  Shouldn't take more than 18 rounds to get there.  Hopefully 9.  Got lucky with my T3 and it took only six to get 1.5 high at 100.  Make sure every thing is tight and aligned correctly before you start of course.  I've seen several that were supposedly "bore-sighted" but weren't even on the paper at 100.  We started over from the beginning and corrected the "professionals" screw-ups.

ngh

[Turtle]

That's where I think I'm at.... try the poor man's bore sight and see what I end up with.  This new scope was installed with new Leupold rings.  The rings were lapped and from watching him, I thought he did a good job.....I just can't believe it's that far off.  I can't even hit a 2'x2' square at 50 yds....and this thing was bore sighted. 

Talk about "not being able to hit the broadside of a barn"......jeeeez.

[Bart Solo]

Nobody has asked, but how does your rifle group?  Are the shots all over the paper or are they grouped outside the 2X2 box?

[yooper77]

I personally do my own scope installations and bore sighting.  I would ask for my money back and chock it up for a lesson learned when it comes to gunstore smiths.

yooper77

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Never trust a gunstore monkey to mount your scope---thats something you ALWAYS do yourself so you know it was done right.


Get on paper---THEN experiment with bullet weights----just cause you bought 165 grainers doesn't mean thats what your rifle likes. Once you find what your rifle likes----THEN dial it in.

I'm betting they messed up your rings when they "lapped" them----just buy Leupold mounts for your Leupold scope----don't mess with them---just mount the scope---and you'll be fine. Did they Loc-tite the bases??

[mcwoodduck]

Well two things.
1.  Never change a scope with only a couple weeks to opening of the season.
2.  Go back to the gun store and have them re-mount the scope.  It sounds like something is loose in there.  If you want to make sure it's the rifle.
If you have had the rifle for 20 years and it likes the ammo you picked up then it's the scope or the mounting.  I  don't think the scope is bad unless you bought it from someone else that has bent or damaged it.
If you don't think it's the scope or the mounting then it's you.  Let's get rid of you and the scope.  Sand bag the rifle, shoot one round on a sheet of graph paper.  If you need a target just draw a dot on the page.  Don't expect to hit the dot.  For the second shot aim at the hole in the page.  Shoot at the first hole twice.  The two rounds should be next to each other.  Now adjust the scope to the first hole.  Each square is 1/4 inch the same as the clicks on your scope at 100 yards.  If you think your way off then get some new cardboard staple more than one sheet of graph paper to the card board.   Shoot at the first hole again after you have adjusted the scope.  If the bullet doesn't move then it's a bent scope.  It it did move.  Now shoot for the 2X2 square.
Now if the two shots are not next to each other then there is a loose scope and it's moving in the mounts,  just a little but it's moving.   
Good luck getting it on paper.

[1marty]

I once bougght a Nikon Monarch for my 700. The shots wandered all over the paper. I re-mounted the scope and it did nothing for it. I returned the scope and exchanged it for another Monarch. The second one was fine-go figure.

[huntswithdogs]

I helped a couple of guys the other week who'd both had scopes mounted by the same place. Both had been "bore sighted" when installed. Both consistently hit 4-5 inches at 25 yds. When they moved out to 100 yds, they were shooting OVER the target. I had them staple a second target below the first and aim at the center of it. Both rifles were hitting the top target toward the top! 15-18'' high! After some industrious cranking on the top turret, we got it down where it belonged.

When I'm mounting a new scope, I use the method listed above, but with a twist. Start with a target at 25yds. Hold dead center and see where you hit. Always shoot twice, with the same hold. The next step requires a second person or a gun vise of some sort...While holding the rifle still and steady, on the bullet's entry hole, move the crosshairs back to the center of the target. Fire another 2 shots. You should be close enough to move on out. I usually go on out to 100 yds. After getting it centered at 100 yds, I will try shots at 25 again, 50, 75, and further out to 200 yds.

Hope ya get it figured out, soon.



HWD

[Turtle]

Good Morning Guys and I appreciate all the input.

The ammo I mentioned is what I settled on several years ago as my "hunting load" and is what my rifle likes.  I sight in with it and have only used that load for the last several years.  As far as the current grouping, I have no idea because I'm using a 2'x2' square as a back to my target.  Passed that, it's the side of a mountain.  I plan to increase the size of this back to try and see where it's shooting.

I bought the scope new and the bases were loc-tited when they were installed.  This was done back in June but unfortunatley with family commitments I haven't been able to get out in the field until now.  I'm my worst critic because I tell people all the time to get your gun good in the summer and then in the fall just make a couple of shots to confirm it.  At any rate, this year I wasn't able to "do what I say."

I hesitate taking it back to the shop that did it just because if they re bore sight it I would think I would be right back to where I started. I did keep track of my adjustments so I would know if they put it right back where it was.  With the price of ammo though, I'd like to at least get it on the paper after the bore sight.

[Swampman]

Just bring the target in close, and start cranking on the scope screws until your shots hit the middle.  Then start moving the target out.

[corbanzo]

If you are having a lot of trouble finding where you are hitting, shoot at the dirt first at about 25 yards, that should give you some idea, find a rock, shoot at it, and use the relationship between the rock and where the bullet hit the ground.  This way there is no way to be "off the paper."  Use it as a rough guide to know how to crank your adjustments.  Once you get close enough to that rock, then put it on paper.  Watch out for over adjustment too, that is the mistake I made with my last scope, was off the paper to the left, saw it hit the dirt to the left side of the target up and back from it, so cranked it far right... saw it hit dirt on the right side... oops!  I made the mistake of starting at 100 yards, when I should of started at 25. 

[ms]

I would bet its the bullet my tikka 300 win didn't like them. I can shoot anything in my rifle but nosler .

[NAM70]

Just bring the target in close, and start cranking on the scope screws until your shots hit the middle.  Then start moving the target out.

Thats the way I did it when I was a kid and thats the way I do it now and I'm old. It shouldn't take many rounds at all to bring it around at 100 yds. Dave

[vinconco]

One thing to watch for when installing a new base is the front base screw is too long sometimes and will bottom out against the barrel because the front screw goes into a "blind" hole.  Count the number of turns it takes to bottom out the screw and then count again when screwing down the scope base.  It should be less turns, if not then file some of the screw off.

Another thing that happened to me recently is that I installed a new Warne picatinny rail on my 700 PSS for a new Leupold MK4 scope I bought.  After "poor mans" bore sighting I found that there was not enough windage in the scope to put it on target!!!.   Turns out that the holes in the receiver were drilled so far off that I couldn't get the MK 4 on target and that scope has a ton of adjustment.  I brought it to a gunsmith that drilled new holes and now it is within .5 MOA of scope "center"  I never noticed the problem with the reciever holes before because I used a "turn in” base that had windage adjustment built in to the base.

[Turtle]

Here's what I ended up doing.  Took it back to the guy and we rechecked everything, bases, rings, etc, and reboresighted. Everything checked out OK.

I went to the field only this time I had my target on a 4'x4' sheet of cardboard and started at 25 yds as several of you recommended.  First couple of shots were about 16" inches to the left and about 4" high.  I kept adjusting and got it close at 25 yds.  Moved it out to 100yds and first couple of shots were 12" high.

After 2 adjustments and a couple more shots it's repeatably shooting an inch to an inch and a half high at 100 yds.  Just how I like it.

So, very expensive lesson (due to the price of ammo) learned but I finally "got er dun".


Teach me to change scopes after 20yrs.  Oh well, this scope should last me thru my next 30 yrs of hunting.

Thanks again for all your help and advice.

-turtle-

[Swampman]

Excellent!  Nothing like a Model 700 & the Leupold combo.  Good hunting!

[AtlLaw]

Teach me to change scopes after 20yrs.  Oh well, this scope should last me thru my next 30 yrs of hunting.

I thought about you the night before last when I was mounting a scope base and scope.  I change scopes a lot and just couldn't understand why you had such a problem!     So paying attention to everything I did, looking for what could have been the culprit, I torqued down the mount, centered the windage adjustment on the base, installed and checked alignment of the rings, put the scope on and torqued down the rings. Then I made sure the scope's windage adjustment was in the center of it's range of movement.

Leaving the rifle in my cleaning cradle, I put it on my reloading chair and pointed it at the wall across from my gun room; about 8 - 10 yards.   On that wall I have a piece of white material on which I've drawn a 1 inch black square.  About 1.5 inches above that square I have drawn a crossed line.  I looked through the bore, and centered the square in the bore.  Then I looked through the scope and noted the lateral location of the crosshairs with relation to the crossed lines.  Lateral adjustment was made as necessary with the base windage screws.

As long as the crosshairs are in the vicinity of the crossed lines vertically, I don't worry about them to much.

When I took the rifle to the range yesterday, my first shot at 25 yds was 4 inches low and 1.5 inches left of the center of a 1 inch aiming point.  One Windage and elevation adjustment was made and the rifle fired at a 50 yard target.  One more adjustment and I started firing groups at 100 yards.

For the life of me I couldn't see anything that would have caused you that problem... unless your 'smith can't see real well looking through little holes!   

[Turtle]

Yeah I have no idea what was going on with this.  The few scopes I've bought and had boresighted were at least within an 16-18" group but for some reason this thing was waaaay off. Thanks again to everyone for all the help.

Opening day is this Saturday and I'm looking forward to it.  I feel good about the accuracy of the gun now.  I feel as a hunter you need that when you go into the field....confidence in your firearm.  Otherwise you might as well be sight seeing.

-turtle-

[Graybeard]

AtlLaw sounds like something a Lawyer would say er at least how one would say it. 

My guess on what went wrong is this. You used those STUPID Leupold windage adjustable bases that I HATE and DESPISE with a passion and refuse to use unless NOTHING else is offered. They likely failed to get the windage adjustment properly centered thus you were off so far you couldn't hit the small target sheet you used. You then got to messing with the adjustments and from there it was a lost cause until you went back to square one.

My procedure is fairly simple. I NEVER use those windage adjustable bases. That alone removes 90% of the potential problems that might develop. I make sure I do the job personally. I never trust it to anyone but me.

Double check that the screws holding the base are not too long if they are shorten them. Mount the bases one at a time making sure you get the screws properly snugged down. I don't have a torque wrench for this but am gonna order one from Midsouth in my next order. I'm sure I always torque them too much. Use blue loc-tite on the base screws.

I highly recommend Burris Signature rings and "almost" always use them but if I don't then I lap all rings as no one's non Signature rings I've seen are gonna be right.

Mount the bottom halves of the rings to the bases and snug but DO NOT tighten them. Put the scope or better yet your lapping bar in the ring bottoms and hold it firmly while tightening the ring top halves if you use a scope and not a lapping bar. If you use a lapping bar and don't use Signature rings at this point lap them. Make sure they are TIGHT before lapping. Lap only the bottom halves.

Now if you lapped mount the scope and tighten the screws securing top and bottom halves. DO NOT loc-tite those screws and it sure is best to use correct torque. Yeah again I always use too much. I'll do better when I get my torque wrench for the job.

If you did the job right and used Signature rings make sure the plastic inserts are not canted as yeah they can get that way if you don't tighten down carefully.

Now make sure the scope adjustments are centered. They will be on a new Leupold so long as no one has messed with them. Set up a large 4'x4' minimum target backer at 25 yards. Get that rifle on the bags and take a careful shot. If you're sure you did it right make the proper adjustment to bring it to zero. Remember you must move it four times as many clicks per inch at 25 as at 100. Sight it dead on left to right and 1" low minimum.

Move the target to 100 yards and carefully fire one shot. Now make the needed adjustments.

Assuming their is no need for offset inserts (something VERY COMMONLY NEEDED these days) I can usually get a new rifle sighted in with four or five shots and be ready to begin shooting groups.

[jvs]

I'm with ms, I think it's the Bullet too.  I don't own a 7mm mag but 165gr is more of a 30 caliber bullet.

I have used the 'poor man's method' of sighting for years in a new set-up.  Unless something really goes wrong, I can usually start shooting to group @100 yds after 3 shots and be on my way home within 9 shots.

I usually make sure the rifle is 'dead level' first and that I am shooting the shortest distance to the target...(in other words, staright on)  I know it sounds different, but that is what I do.

Another thing you may want to try after it is sighted in...  Run down to the 100 yd target and run back.  When you get back, pick your rifle up and take a shot off-hand.  This may well be the closest you get to how your heart pounds in your chest and your ears when a giant buck is in your crosshairs.

Only then will you know how accurate both you and your rifle is.  Sighting in from the bench only tells you how good you are under the most perfect conditions and that when you miss, it wasn't the rifles' fault.

[Graybeard]

He clearly stated he's using the same ammo he's used in the rifle for years. Why would you suspect it?

[jvs]

It's too heavy, and Noslers can tend to be a little erratic in some calibers and twists.  Almost like trying to get Core-Lokts to shoot tight.  Most of the time, it ain't gonna happen.  While I don't exactly know what weight bullet should shoot best in a 7mm because I don't have one, I do know that 165 gr was basically invented for the 30 caliber family.  It might be splitting hairs but 7mm is not a 30 caliber and should shoot a slightly lighter bullet more accurately.

Don't get me wrong, I like Core-Lokts.  I use them all of the time for Whitetail.  Noslers have a place too, but those types are not known in my parts to be the most accurate, bullet performance overides the accuracy problem in my book.  Noslers can blow the same size hole at just about the same accuracy as Core-Lokts, but pinpoint accuracy is the price you pay for bullet performance in most cases.  It is tough to get groups under 2" at 100 yds with Core-Lokts.   It can happen, but it isn't likely. 

No doubt if you hit something with a Nosler Partition or Core-Lokt, it's going down with wounds the size of a softball.  Just don't expect to thread the needle.

One other thing.  I just re-read his first post and I see that he has this rifle for about 20 yrs.  While the age may not be a problem, the amount of rounds through this barrel may be.  If he is getting Blow-By, it certainly could affect accuracy as he explains it regardless of what scope he has on.  Magnum rifles are noted for this problem at around 500 to 700 rounds.  Sometimes more, sometimes less.  Depending on how much powder you use if you reload or if you consistently use factory rounds.

[AtlLaw]

Hey jvs, go over to the Handloading forum... I staked you to an ant hill over there!