Author Topic: Rate of Twist  (Read 1365 times)

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Offline tonygrz

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Rate of Twist
« on: September 30, 2008, 10:40:10 AM »
Hi,

New to this part of the forum.  Want to know what's the optimal rate of twist for firing round balls and maxi's.  Want to buy a traditional BP rifle and just plink with RBs and maxi's.

Thanks,

Tony Garza
tonygrz
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Offline 7-30 Waters

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Re: Rate of Twist
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2008, 12:10:48 PM »
In my humble opinion, I don't believe there is a optimal twist rate for round balls and maxi's.  I'm sure others will disagree with me but my 1:48 twist T/C Hawken 54 was supposed to be the optimal twist.  I felt the twist was too slow for any conical over 300 grains and too fast for patch & ball if you shot over 90 grains of powder. 

I say go one way or the other.  1:66 twist for balls and 1:28 for maxi's.  Even my 1:38 twist T/C Thunderhawk 54 has a hard time achieving acceptable accuracy unless you stoke it up to a full 120 grains of Tripple Seven.

Just my opinion.

Offline pab1

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Re: Rate of Twist
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2008, 12:18:48 PM »
Thats been my experience too 7-30 Waters.
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Offline kevthebassman

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Re: Rate of Twist
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2008, 01:36:02 PM »
One does not "plink" with the maxi.  They're expensive to buy if you don't cast your own, and if you do cast your own, they need to be run through a lubrisizer.  The recoil from the maxi is stout with actual hunting loads.

The one thing I will say about the maxiball is that they sure do pack a wallop.  But then again the .54 roundball is no slouch either.

I have two barrels for my TC Renegade, one for .54 roundballs, and a .50 cal barrel that will shoot either maxi or round ball.  The 1:48 twist is a bit of a compromise, and I don't get as good of accuracy out of that barrel as I do out of the slow-twist, .54 barrel.  I've shot both, and I'm sold on the round ball.

Offline 7-30 Waters

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Re: Rate of Twist
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2008, 03:23:57 PM »
Hi,

New to this part of the forum.  Want to know what's the optimal rate of twist for firing round balls and maxi's.  Want to buy a traditional BP rifle and just plink with RBs and maxi's.


Thanks,

Tony Garza
tonygrz



If you are planning on plinking & hunting then I recommend a barrel specifically made for round balls.  You can shoot 30 grains of Pyrodex "P" under a patch & roundball very accurately.  This is the load I have my kids practice with.  Economical and if you have a bullet trap you can recover your lead and recast it into new round balls.

Just a thought??????


Offline tonygrz

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Re: Rate of Twist
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2008, 04:49:32 PM »
Great idea 7-30 Waters.  I think I'll go in that direction.  A RB barrel and a bullet trap and less recoil.  doesn't get better than that !!!!
Life is great, don't screw it up with WORK !!!

Offline longcaribiner

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Re: Rate of Twist
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2008, 04:47:00 AM »
Traditional Muzzleloader wisdom was that round balls shoot best with a slow twist in the neighborhood of 1:70.  A faster twist will work ok, if you use milder loads than hunting loads. patched round balls will shoot great in fast twist barrels when the ball is moving rather slow.  For instance 1:24, will work with round balls if you keep the powder down to 25 grains. 

But twist is not the only factor

The difference between a fast twist round ball barrel and a fast twist for conical bullets, like inlines, is the depth of rifling.  rifling has to be deeper to properly grip a patched round ball.  Conical bullets have more surface area to grip the rifling and can accuately be fired out of barrels with much shallower rifling.  Round ball rifling is usually .008 or more deep, which conical bullet rifling is usually around .005 or even less.

A difference is also made by the shape and width of the rifling.   Some custom muzzleloader barrels have round bottom grooves and some have lands that are significantly narrower than the grooves.  I have a real tack driver barrel made 30 years ago, that has oval bottom rifling and grooves that are four times wider than the lands. (imagine a rifling cutter that is shaped like an oval cut in half length wise)  The rifling is actually around .0010 deep.  narrow lands can work well with deeper rifling.  An all lead bullet such as the Lee REAL isn't too bad to load in one of those wide groove narrow land barrels, but in a barrel with deep rifling and equal width rifling a Maxi ball can be hard to start down the barrel.   The otherthing is that concical bullets have to be able to fill the rifling and prevent blow-by (hot gases and/or powder escapeing past the bullet) Blowby can melt bullets, allow pressure past the bullet, and generally ruin accuracy.  So tolerances of rifling depth and width is more critical for conical bullets.  Such tolerances are not as important with patched round balls because patch thickness and the soft lead projectile can be adapted more readily to those barrels.

So in general, round ball twist for a rifle should be over 1:60, however, there are many other factors.  In the 1800's there were all kinds of experiments with various types of rifling.  There was gain twist, where the rifling twist accelerated(got faster) toward the muzzle.  There was rifling with round topped lands, grooves with convex humps sticking up in the middle of the grooves, even choked rifle barrels. The Whitworth rifle of civil war fame used a hexagonal bore with a special hexagon shaped bullet.  (I have an original flint lock from the Middle East that has a septagonal bore.)

The fellow that made my target barrel made a few special off hand barrels for target shooters that were intended expressly for 25 and 50 yard offhand shooters.  Imagine a 58 cal fast twist (around 1:36) barrel that was only 7/8 across the flats( very thin barrel walls)  It was intended to be shot with no more than 20 -25 grains of powder.  Unfortunately some stupid jerk tried 100 grains of powder with the expected resultant shrapnel.  Fortunately, the gunsmith had the foresight to engrave a max load right on the barrel flats. 

This is probably more information than you are looking for, but there is no one answer fits all.     

Offline tonygrz

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Re: Rate of Twist
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2008, 07:33:02 PM »
Longcarabiner and all the others,

Thanks for the great info.  But as I said in the begining, I'm only going to plink with the rifle.  Backyard range makes it easy for me to "plink" with a wide variety of weapons and calibers.  I want to build a shooting stop plate angled down so I can recycle some of the lead.

I haven't even bought a rifle yet, but it will be an inexpensive one.  CVA hawken type that has 1:48 twist.  I'll see how that works first before I go forward with more extensive and expensive weapons.  I have a .45 plains pistol that works just fine.  Like the bang and smoke.

Again, Thanks,

tony garza
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Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: Rate of Twist
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2008, 03:38:00 AM »
If you are just plinking with it I would really look at a .36 or .45 cal.  I really like shooting my .36 but I think a .45 would be the easiest to come across cheap and could still be taken deer hunting if you'd like to.

 I prefer to shoot RB myself, so my TC Renagade is wearing a Green Mountian 1-70 twist barrel, Its a top notch shooter much better than I am.
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