Hard Cast...?

[mray]

I see many of you guys talking about "hard cast" bullets.  Tell me, if I'm wrong here because I'm new at this, but what exactly does "hard cast" mean?  I'm assuming (and you know what they say about that) that hard cast means some type of bullet that is not jacketed, that can be shoot at high speeds so that it won't lead the barrel.  Correct?  And I'm also assuming that there are suppliers that most of you are fond of.  What are some bullets / suppliers that you guys would recommend?  I'm shooting a 44 mag. at PA whitetails and maybe a black bear or two.

Thanks in advance.

MR

[GradyL41]

Yes hard cast refers to all lead bullets that are well --hard-- you can cast them softer and then drop them hot into cold water and they can then be forced to be hard-anyway I cast and do not even own a .44 any more -- but I still will buy some bullets sometimes  --montana bullet works  and have used leadheads both were fine in my .41's --depends on what style of bullet you want to shoot-- Blackwater bullets are also good if wanting keith only-- as are many others I am sure

[Redhawk1]

GradyL41, is right. Hard cast bullets are lead bullets, some with gas checks and some without. I only use hard cast gas check bullets in my hunting handguns and my Marlin 45-70. I can push them faster, and not get leading in the gun. I get 95% of my hard cast bullets from Montana Bullet Works, Dave has some great bullets at a great price as well. I use his bullets for 45 Colt up to my 500Mag  and 510 GNR.

Check out his web site. http://www.montanabulletworks.com/default.php

[Lloyd Smale]

best boughten bullests ive ever used came from mt baldy bullets. He occasionaly has send me boxes of his bullets to try and ive allways been impressed. http://www.mtbaldybullets.com/

[Graybeard]

I'm assuming (and you know what they say about that) that hard cast means some type of bullet that is not jacketed, that can be shoot at high speeds so that it won't lead the barrel.  Correct?

No not exactly correct.

You basically have four types of bullets. You have the normal cup and core jacketed bullets and the monolytic bullets such as the Barnes X which isn't exactly jacketed since the entire bullet is made of jacket material more or less.

Then you have lead bullets with no jacket and of those there are two types as well soft swaged ones and harder cast bullets. Bullets can be cast of pure lead and are by folks who use them in their muzzle loaders and of nearly pure lead by folks shooting them in BPCRs.

Hard cast is some what of a misnomer really as there is no particular standard as to what is "hard" versus what is not hard. Generally folks refer to bullets considerably harder than pure lead as "hard cast" and that runs the span from wheel weight bullets to linotype bullets. Most commercially cast bullets are VERY HARD closer to linotype in composition than to wheel weights.

Satisfactory bullets can be made for hunting purposes from any alloy from say a 1:30 mix of tin and lead to any combination of lead-tin-antimony you want to use. More tin doesn't add much to hardness but a little tin say up to 2% or so aids in the bullets filling out fully. Antimony is the hardening agent and more is better at making bullets harder up to a point. That point is some thing less than 10% and beyond that point more doesn't do much except make bullets more expensive. About 3% to 6% antimony is a proper amount that makes good hard bullets without adding too much to the cost.

Some water drop bullets made with antimony and arsenic in them to surface harden them but that's really all it does is surface harden them. The hardness is not all the way to the core as it is if they are hard from alloy composition. I do not personally approve of the process. As bullets age they lose that surface hardness and over time will revert to the hardness of the base alloy so starting with a good alloy is to me the key to making good bullets.

Mostly I don't buy cast bullets I either make my own or use jacketed. I use only plain base or gas checked bullets as in my experience bevel base bullets aren't worth my time if I'm wanting to shoot beyond 25 yards or so 50 at the most. Since I don't buy but only use my own I can offer no insight on who to buy from.

[Lone Star]

To add even more confusion, harder cast bullets can actually cause more leading than softer ones.  Leading is caused by gas cutting - powder gasses that leak past the sides of the bullet and act like a blowtorch, melting off tiny drops of lead which then solidify on the bore surface.  A bullet which is too hard for the chamber pressure of the load will not slug up (obturate) in the bore, and gas can get by and cause leading.  Lead which is softer will not lead at low pressures unless it is the wrong size or the bore is not of even diameter.

Bottom line - to prevent leading use hard bullets for high pressure loads and softer (not dead soft) bullets for lower pressure loads.  The CBA has published reams of copy about this and has Dave Scoville of Handloader covered it in two books.  I've proven it myself - it is a fact.  But most commercial bullets are not really hard so they work well for most loads.  And 'most all cast loads will leave at least a lead wash in the bore, just as jacketed bullets leave some jacket material behind.

BTW it takes months to years for water-quenched bullets to soften appreciably.  Mine just never seem to last that long after I cast them....


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[mray]

thanks for the info. But tell me... How do I know which bullets to buy and which will lead up my gun? And can you push hard casts to the same speeds as jacketed bullets?

[Lloyd Smale]

leading is caused more by a bad gun then a bad bullet. If all of your tolarnces and alignment is correct in your gun you can shoot hard bullets at slow speed. Where softer bullets are nessisary is when your cylinder throats are smaller then your bore and the bullet needs to expand into the rifleing. Ive shot many thousand staight lineotype bulets out of sixguns and 1911s at 800 fps or even less with absoulutely no leading but i make sure my gun is right before i even take it to the range. Personely i consider a bullet a hard cast bullet if it has a hardness or 10bhn or more. In a handgun you can push cast bullets to the same velocitys as jacketed bullets if everything is proper with your gun. In a rilfe you will not. Ive shot gas checked bullets out of guns at up to 2500 fps but it takes an exceptional gun to do it. Most of the time i consider the max velocity out of a hard cast gas checked bullet to be about 2000fps but even that takes an alloy that is 18bhn or harder a gas check and a real good lube. What is more critical to accuracy and leading in a sixgun then alloy hardness is bullet size. The size of the bullet must match the size of your throats and bore. If its to small you will have extream leading. Drive a  soft lead round ball that is slightly bigger then your bore through the gun and measure it. Do the same with the throats in your cylinder. If the clyinder measurment is smaller you can have it opened up if its larger your stroked. In that case you can either try softer alloys or do like i would and dump the gun. Once you know these measurements give a call to someone like Frank at mt baldy and he will set you up with a properly sized and alloyed bullet for your needs. Most of the sizing problems ive seen have been with 45 colts. Most 44 and 41 mags are pretty close to right but theres no guarantee. I guess i have to ask if you are actually having a problem with it or if your just wanting knowlege. Leading can be cause by many things but a good rule of thumb is if you have leading that is worse in first half of your barrel you have a gun that has a sizing problem and if you have it in the last half of your barrel you have either a lube problem or your alloy is to soft for the speed your shooting. Another problem with comercial cast bullets is lube. Most use a very hard lube that will hold up to shipping and handling but does very little to actually  lube your bullet. When you order bullets ask if you can get them lubed with a softer lube. Now when im talking leading im talking severe leading. A little leading in your gun should bother anything. If you see a light ammount of leading in your gun and it doesnt get worse dont worry about it. If it gets so bad that it effects accuracy then you need to do something. Usually a couple jacketed bullets or gas checked bullets will remove light leading. Another thing that can cause leading is a rough bore. Most out of the box handguns and rifles that are going to be used for cast shooting benifit from barrel lapping. Veral Smith on the lbt forum sells about the best lapping kit available and its realitivly an easy process to lap your barrel. Ive seen where guns shot much better after being lapped and have never saw one that shot worse. I know this seems like alot of bother but realisticaly most guns do just fine with commercial cast bullets just the way they come.

[GradyL41]

what you buy depends on what you want to shoot--the game --for deer 200 and 240 XTP work very well- I dont hear as much about gold dots but a 240 gold Dot should woek too--Nosler 240s and Sieera 240's-- LBT style cast bullets with a decent flat on the nose(meplat) also will certainly do well in the 240 and up  as will a good old plain Keith cast bullet--deer are thin skined and are really not hard to kill -- they aretuff if wounded- any of the above bullets in the proper place will take a whitetail-- the right place-- really preetty much = the right bullet

[Lone Star]

How do I know which bullets to buy and which will lead up my gun? And can you push hard casts to the same speeds as jacketed bullets?

Most commercial cast bullets will work fine.  Some may give a small amount of leading but as stated in my post above unless your barrel is not dimensionally consistent it should not be a problem for most loads.  Heck, with special techniques it is possible to shoot pure lead bullets to 1800 fps and more without leading.

One problem with posts on sites like this is the wealth of obsolete information that is typed.  The Cast Bullet Association has made huge strides in the understanding of cast bullets and leading in the past 15-20 years, yet most posters here insist on using obsolete theories from the 1960 issue of Lymans Cast Bullet Manual.  The fact is that many (not all) old theories about leading have been proven false, and if we want to extend the envelope of CB shooting we need to move forward, not cling to worn-out thinking.  I know that my own CB shooting has improved markedly over the past 20 years as I accept the newer proven ideas and toss out the old guesses from the past.  I've shot pure lead bullets at 1700 fps without leading and without lube; all it takes it a positive seal between the bullet and the powder to prevent gas cutting and - zero leading.  It is not a lube issue, although lube is usually required for normal CB shooting adn th ebore must be very very good.  These are not my theories, they are facts presented by the most knowledgeable CB shooters in the world.





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[mray]

Thanks for all the opinions / information...  What about specific manufacturers / web sites / bullets?  Any recommendations?

[jk3006]

Montana Bullet Works, Bearthooth Bullets are usually tops on my list.  MBW uses Veral's molds.  Lasercast Trueshot makes a 310 gr wfn gc with a meplat of .37 or so.  I like that bullet a lot.  Of course, there's Cast Performance as well.

[efremtags]

Definately check out Beartooth Bullets. Lots of info and quality products.

Leading has much to do with gun barrel tolerance and velocity (or pressure to achieve that velocity). Shoot bullet that is slightly larger in dimeter than bore (.430 in 44 mag for instance instead of .429). Also use a gas check if velocity is much over 1100FPS, to avoid gas cutting.

Hard lead is made that way from several methods, adding allows and heat treating or both. The hardness can be a negative attribute depending on the method, as hard can be brittle, which can cause shattering. This is not typical at pistol velocity, but is a real problem at rifle velocities.

Beartooth and Garret ammo are hard, but ductile becasue of their casting methods. They will hold up in extreme use.

Casting your own only makes sense if you shoot alot and you have a goo source for lead. Lead has nearly doubled in the last 4 years. Pretty soon peolpe will be wearing lead jewelry instead of gold at this rate!!

[kiddekop]

I see many of you guys talking about "hard cast" bullets.  Tell me, if I'm wrong here because I'm new at this, but what exactly does "hard cast" mean?  I'm assuming (and you know what they say about that) that hard cast means some type of bullet that is not jacketed, that can be shoot at high speeds so that it won't lead the barrel.  Correct?  And I'm also assuming that there are suppliers that most of you are fond of.  What are some bullets / suppliers that you guys would recommend?  I'm shooting a 44 mag. at PA whitetails and maybe a black bear or two.

Thanks in advance.

MR

http://www.castperformance.com has hard cast bullets.When I was casting bullets for my 45-70 Schuetzen rifle I used  linotype ,I could dig the bullets out of the backstop bank that were dirty but still in perfect condition.

[S.B.]

I'm reluctant(because I've not killed anything with it yet) to recommend anything here but, I'm going to try killing a Russian boar with Montana Bullet Works 310 grain gas checked .44 bullets this Dec. in Vermont from my S&W Mountain Gun. Also, I'm going to take one of my Marlin lever rifles along(probably use factory ammo in this), just in case a close enough shot is not presented me? Hate to come home with nothing, the cost of these hunts is outrageous but, I can understand the outfitters side of this equation also, they have to eat.

[Autorim]

mray,

I don't cast bullets anymore - too busy working and shooting. I currently have on hand bullets from several manufacturers and they all perform just fine. I rarely push cast bullets much past 1000 fps. I placed my first order tonight with Montana Bullet Works in .358, .411, .430, and .452 - mostly gas checked, but some plain base Keith style. I also have some .452 bullets from Cast Precision. I expect all of these to perform very well.

The .452 will be fired in my Ruger Bisley .45LC 7.5 inch that has been smithed by Alan Harton - he also made me a new patridge front sight. I'll post results.

I also shoot .452 bullets in the S&W 625 and M25.

Good shooting,

Autorim