Author Topic: 700 Remington Quality  (Read 36667 times)

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Offline Swampman

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #120 on: December 02, 2008, 03:21:53 AM »
If I had an accidental discharge with a rifle, I'd send it back to Remington.  In 45 years of shooting, I've never had one.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #121 on: December 02, 2008, 03:28:08 AM »
Because they violated the #1 rule of gun safety.

Yes, but in the real world that happens even with experts and professionals.  Remington management knew this but chose to continue manufacturing a flawed product regardless.

Poor gun handling technique on the part of the users does not eliminate culpability on the part of Remington, nor does it mean the safety design was without a flaw.  Had the safety worked properly fewer people would have been killed or injured. 
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #122 on: December 02, 2008, 03:33:21 AM »

Swampy, I doubt everybody who suffered an unexpected discharge violated the first rule of gun safety. It is extremely likely that most discharges resulted in bullets safely slamming into the ground, but if that happened to you I bet you would be on the phone with Remington or your gunsmith ASAP. 

That brings me to my mild defense of both you and Remington.  How come we have only heard about a few catastrophic failures?  Where are the stories about failures that didn't result in death or injury?   With 20,000 plus defective rifles in the market place over the last 60 years they should be common.

Such discharges are probably much more common than the number reported to Remington or resulting in injury/death/lawsuits.

I once had a Savage 110 discharge when the safety was released.  (Fortunately I was following Rule #1.)  The incident was not reported to Savage.
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #123 on: December 02, 2008, 04:00:42 AM »
OK, how many of you have ever had a discharge upon release of the safety?  We have one vote for a Savage.  Any others?

By the way  Coyote Hunter, I find your reaction shocking. I suspect most of us would have been on the phone with Savage immediately.  An inadvertent and unexpected discharge, even if in a safe direction, is not something most people would treat so casually. 

Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #124 on: December 02, 2008, 04:50:48 AM »
The current production Remington 700 still has the problem?

There is no (and never was) a problem.


The fix was created for a problem that didn't exist.  Don't cover anything you don't wish to put a hole in with the muzzle of your rifle.  The only real safety is between your ears. 


Because they violated the #1 rule of gun safety.


Remington, WELCOME to this discussion !

Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #125 on: December 02, 2008, 05:05:58 AM »

You are again on the money there Swampman! The X Mark was developed to address the "Body of litigation" [Diaz] against the connector design fire control... How would you know that unless you have close ties, OR potentially are directly with Remington? Maybe you are in the loop and have read the same material I have?? Your position is EXACTLY the same as theirs, almost word for word... a very curious thing to me sir that you would say "The fix was created for a problem that didn't exist." and then the comment about the X Mark Pro:

The new X-Mark Pro trigger, eliminated the customer induced so called problem.

I believe there are only a small handful of people that would know these small details outside of the company, and possibly only engineering level employees and higher inside the company, or are you just lucky ;O)



Aug ><>

Offline charles p

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #126 on: December 02, 2008, 05:18:14 AM »
I've had two rifles that discharged upon the release of the safety.  Both were Mod 70 Winchesters and the incidents occured following trigger work.  Neither discharge could be blamed on the manufacturer.

Offline Swampman

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #127 on: December 02, 2008, 05:20:23 AM »
Quote
position is EXACTLY the same as theirs, almost word for word...

That's because their position is correct, as is mine.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #128 on: December 02, 2008, 05:31:12 AM »
Quote
position is EXACTLY the same as theirs, almost word for word...

That's because their position is correct, as is mine.

Hmmm???

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #129 on: December 02, 2008, 05:41:34 AM »
I've had two rifles that discharged upon the release of the safety.  Both were Mod 70 Winchesters and the incidents occured following trigger work.  Neither discharge could be blamed on the manufacturer.

I assume you were on the phone with the gunsmith who did the trigger work.

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #130 on: December 02, 2008, 05:43:40 AM »
Augustis

I don't know if Swampman is a Remington plant, but you sound like a plaintiff's lawyer looking for work.  ;D

Offline Skunk

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #131 on: December 02, 2008, 06:11:41 AM »
Quote
position is EXACTLY the same as theirs, almost word for word...

That's because their position is correct, as is mine.

Well, I'm hoping Jewel, Rifle Basix, or Timney makes a competition safety switch like their triggers because I don't want my shot thrown off by a gritty safety pull.  If they can just get the pull of the safety down to about 6 ounces, the rifle should still group well. At least we won't be able to blame the safety switch for a bad shot. ;D
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline Brithunter

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #132 on: December 02, 2008, 07:18:39 AM »
Ahhhh some people have not quite realised that it's akin to a criminal offence to question or god forbid say anything bad about Remington   ::) :o.

Offline Swampman

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #133 on: December 02, 2008, 07:35:11 AM »
I have to say I agree.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #134 on: December 02, 2008, 07:36:44 AM »
Augustis

I don't know if Swampman is a Remington plant, but you sound like a plaintiff's lawyer looking for work.  ;D

Ron

Augustis

I don't know if Swampman is a Remington plant, but you sound like a plaintiff's lawyer looking for work.  ;D

No sir, not me! I suspect a knowledgeable trial lawyer in this area would not be on these forums educating the public for free, or at leased not disclosing these forms of details like I have. First off, the system would not permit such disclosure of certain facts, nor would I suspect most  lawyers would waste there "valuable" time in this area.

The internal documentation I have gathered and digested has been mostly on my own dime, and with that it is my choice IF I so choose to disseminate anything at all,  to anyone.

There is very seldom anything in this for me! My time here was to attempt to address certain "facts from fiction" in this area, for the benefit of public knowledge concerning this issue,  not mine, I already know a thing or two about thie history of this issue ;O)

On the positive side, people are getting a rare opportunity to learn things from this thread that they may have not know before?? Personally I think this issue is interesting from a historical perspective alone, what I find sad is the loss of life that this problematic condition has created for the gun bearing public.

Aug ><>



 

 

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #135 on: December 02, 2008, 09:10:30 AM »
OK, how many of you have ever had a discharge upon release of the safety?  We have one vote for a Savage.  Any others?

By the way  Coyote Hunter, I find your reaction shocking. I suspect most of us would have been on the phone with Savage immediately.  An inadvertent and unexpected discharge, even if in a safe direction, is not something most people would treat so casually. 

Not necessarily, given the circumstances.

In this case I had a problem chambering a cartridge and had worked the bolt a couple times.  The rifle then discarged when I released the safety.  Not sure why, but I had put a couple thousand rounds through the rifle without a problem and never experienced another one.
Coyote Hunter
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Offline Bart Solo

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #136 on: December 02, 2008, 09:15:36 AM »
Augustis, But you are such a good writer, possess such a profound understanding of products liability and have such deep knowledge of the subject matter I assumed you are a professional.  My bad.  ;D

Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #137 on: December 02, 2008, 01:32:24 PM »
Ron

That may be the case, but what I lack is the "learned intelligence" of a lawyer,  and that being the benefit of the degree that says I am a somebody.. with that I am only a man that knows a little bit about a lot of things that go on out of the public eye, by my own choice  ;O)

 Over the years I have come to know several people very knowledgeable about this issue, some that worked for Remington, or otherwise on the other side of the isle, no mater how you slice it or dice it the material facts of the issue remain the same and really boils down to nothing more than documented history, even if distasteful to some.

Further I have put little stock into what people have had to say about this issue through the years, until I can prove something for MYSELF either way. I wont say something or speculate if I can not substantiate the claim. Again I am offering my insights to others here for free in this instance, people can take it to the bank, or squander it for what it is worth to them... its no skin off of my nose either way. In this rare instance the choice is theirs to make based off of  documented facts for a change. Sir I do not know what more to say about this, other than if I am guilty of anything it may be educating other individuals about something they seem interested in reading about, or writing about something that may prevent a life changing event??

In my book education it the better alternative ;O)

Sincerely, Aug ><>


Offline Augustis

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #138 on: December 05, 2008, 05:57:30 AM »
Because they violated the #1 rule of gun safety.

Yes, but in the real world that happens even with experts and professionals.  Remington management knew this but chose to continue manufacturing a flawed product regardless.
 
Poor gun handling technique on the part of the users does not eliminate culpability on the part of Remington, nor does it mean the safety design was without a flaw.  Had the safety worked properly fewer people would have been killed or injured. 

CH
 
I am using your post to try to make this point again about where the potential "Flaw" (Your Word) exists in this design. This post will address diminished engagement, and malfunctions that may manifest under this potential failure mode.

I have pointed out earlier in one of my posts that it is a malfunction related to the trigger and not the safety, which is a sear block design. When the safety is applied the cam on the safety lever lifts the "sear safety cam" upward and should slightly retract the cocking piece there by blocking the striker from forward travel. When the cocking piece is retracted allows the sear spring to lift the sear safety cam upward out of contact with the trigger connector and the trigger in theory should be able to be pulled and subsequently reset itself with the safety in the 'On' safe position.

Maybe if people can come to gain a basic understanding of how the connector functions, then maybe they might also gain that basic understanding of how its failure to perform its intended function creates these forms of malfunction??
 
 The basic intended function of the trigger connector:

This is a single stage over ride system fire control, with an additional part called a "resiliently mounted trigger connector" that no other firearm,  or aftermarket fire control manufacturer has ever adopted. This design feature is unique to the world of firearms and has been used exclusively by Remington Arms Company.

 Lets try this for an example. Has anyone ever held a fresh watermelon seed between your thumb and first digit finger and squeezed it until it shot out?? Did you observe that if you have to much of the seed in contact (engagement) with your fingers you can apply A LOT of pressure and nothing will happen unless you can manage to generate enough pressure to over ride the frictional forces of the contact surfaces... on the other hand, by reducing the contact surface area by allowing the seed to protrude further forward from your fingers and squeeze, at some point when enough pressure is applied the seed will shoot out. This is the same applied principal of the trigger connector design.

You have the sear applying a load from the main spring to the resiliently mounted  trigger connector  seated on top of trigger body with a pivot point at the bottom of the connector. If the trigger connector binds, or is restricted in some way from returning to a secure and reliable sear support condition, it can potentially perform its intended function without trigger contact being made. Reduced engagement of the trigger connector can result in a "Jar Off", or firing when operating the bolt malfunction, because enough engagement exists initially to allow tension to build up on the mainspring necessary to cause ignition of the primer when the sear ultimately over rides the connectors frictional ability to sustain engagement with the sear prior to this malfunction. 

With the trigger connector design, the main spring load bearing on the sear will ALWAYS compel the connector forward to over ride the connectors frictional ability (at the engagement surfaces) to support the sear. By reducing the engagement either by restriction of the part due to uncontrollable factors, or by adjustment of the engagement screw would simply permit the intended function of the connector to occur more freely, without notice absent a trigger pull, or requiring less pull on the trigger bow to initiate the process.

In  normal operation, every time the rifle is fired by intentionally pulling the trigger, the trigger connector rotates forward on its pivot point after the trigger body reaches the over travel limit screw. This is how Mike Walker managed to produce a trigger with such a short over travel to initiate the firing process in this design. and potentially why this fire control has been so widely accepted by the shooting public.

The trigger adjustment screw on this design performs dual functions:

1) Of course the trigger adjustment screw reduces the trigger pressure required to initiate the release of the sear, But this same spring load is what compels the trigger body and trigger connector back that secure and reliable sear support condition.

 If the internal friction of the system is say 1.75 pounds and you have adjusted the trigger to a pull rate of 2 pounds, you potentially have ZERO pounds of spring load to fully retract the 2 piece trigger back under the sear , or if not enough critical engagement is maintained at all times, under the diverse field conditions one could expect and in  varying climate conditions,  the connector will perform its intended function, releasing the striker without trigger contact being made and without notice that something is wrong... BOOM! You have now lost control over WHEN the rifle may discharge.

It is important to note that every time the sear drops, releasing the striker the trigger connector HAS to rotate forward from its pivot point on the trigger body, and IF it should fail to return tight to the trigger body, or the trigger body and connector fail to return to a full engagement condition the potential for a malfunction may present itself.

 

The FSR condition is yet another can of worms attributable to the trigger connector design and its relationship with the sear to cause the arm to fire on safety release... this is an interference condition, which I will leave for another day if any interest appears to exist, or I feel so inclined to write about this failure mode???

Aug ><>


Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #139 on: December 05, 2008, 10:09:44 AM »
I have to say I agree.

OMG, the stones of the ages are about to crumble to dust!  Swampy and Brit have AGREED on SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!   :o

Offline Brithunter

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #140 on: December 05, 2008, 11:27:32 PM »
I have to say I agree.

OMG, the stones of the ages are about to crumble to dust!  Swampy and Brit have AGREED on SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!   :o

Not sure about the stones but the weather couldn't cope with this shock and got all confused with blizzards, and gales. In some places they got heavy rain  ::) we got a bit of all three but now the sun is out so perhaps the weather has recovered a little. Here at least the snow has gone and the winds dropped. Didn't quite get bad enough to lose power  :).

Offline ms

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #141 on: December 20, 2008, 11:07:00 AM »
I know someone who had a Ruger bolt action in 7MM Mag and fired cartridges would not go back into the chamber unless they were orientented the same way they came out. If rotated 180 degrees, the bolt could not be closed. The problem was that the bolt face was not exactly perpendicular to the direction of the chamber. Ruger would not fix the problem. I had a custom bolt action with the same problem. It was not a high priced job and I knew there was no way of getting the problem fixed. Finally, I was at the range a couple weeks ago and a guy with a 700 Remington was explaining to me how he had to full length resize when reloading or the reloads would not chamber. After shooting a cartridge we determined that if a fired cartridge was oriented the same way it was extracted after firing, it would chamber. Otherwise it would not (same problem as above). He was having trouble getting good accuracy. Maybe that had something to do with things not lining up right. Anyway, I am a little disapointed as I always though Reminton 700's were made right and accurate. At least the ones I bought were accurate. Hope Remington will make things right for this guy.
They sure will.

Offline One Eye

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #142 on: December 22, 2008, 05:45:19 AM »
OK, how many of you have ever had a discharge upon release of the safety?  We have one vote for a Savage.  Any others?

By the way  Coyote Hunter, I find your reaction shocking. I suspect most of us would have been on the phone with Savage immediately.  An inadvertent and unexpected discharge, even if in a safe direction, is not something most people would treat so casually. 
Yes, I have had this happen with a Ruger M77.  It was not reported to Ruger.
Dan
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

Offline Cecil

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #143 on: December 22, 2008, 11:54:30 AM »
This happened with Remington 700 1983 elk hunting Colorado cousin was behind me move the safety to off and it sure fired. glad he had it pointed in a safe direction was still scary
Cecil

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #144 on: December 22, 2008, 12:11:08 PM »
So now we have had four or five people who have actually experienced an accidental discharge.  Not an insignificant number when compared to the total number of individuals who have read this thread.  I notice that only one involved a Remington.  Two of the discharges involved firearms that had been worked on by the same "gunsmith."   

Offline AggieDog

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #145 on: December 22, 2008, 01:09:30 PM »
It's kind of funny what you heard at the range.  One guy at our gun club just got a new SS SPS 257 Wby and he was complaining that he couldn't touch the lands go figure.  I've owned alot of Rem rifles and I never had one that wouldn't chamber a round or shoot a decent group and if I wasn't getting what I considered good groups or was having a problem chamber a round I'd sure be getting hold of Rem and sending the rifle back.  

I picked up a 17 Rem when they first came out long before the net was reading one of the gun rags was a recall so called the 800 # they send box and everything to ship it back to them and put on a new barrel I request they didn't put back the factory sights as I only shot the rifle with a scope got the rifle back with no sights.

If you had a truck that wasn't running right was under warannty why wouldn't you take it back to the dealer same with a rifle.

I just purchased my second 257 wby, this one is a Remington SPS, Remington has 4 versions out in very limited quantity this year.

As for your friend at the range who complained that he couldnt touch the lands on his rifle, I assume you are refering to his reloads, and the bullets wont touch the lands. Well, as a reloader for 257 wby's I can tell you not one 257 wby will normally allow you to touch the bullet to the lands, or it's very hard to do. That is because that is exactly the specs, and way a 257 wby is designed, as they develop alot of pressure, and they like to "jump" to the lands. The only way you can get it chambered closer is to have a gunsmith do it, and he wont do it very easily for you without lecturing you very hard as to why you should "not" do it. The reason is simple, once you alter the chamber where you can easily touch bullets to the lands, you can forget about using any factory ammunition on the market.....that is, unless you are fond of blowing yourself up.

My other wby is a Vanguard, a very good rifle, but I must tell you, my Remington is lighter, and feels alot better, and I do like the 26 inch barrel on it.

Here's the link to the Remington SPS in 257 wby:  http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/special_runs/model_700_SPS_Stainless_.257_WBY.asp

Offline One Eye

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #146 on: December 23, 2008, 03:03:49 AM »
My other wby is a Vanguard, a very good rifle, but I must tell you, my Remington is lighter, and feels alot better, and I do like the 26 inch barrel on it.

Here's the link to the Remington SPS in 257 wby:  http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/special_runs/model_700_SPS_Stainless_.257_WBY.asp
In the spirit of this thread, how does your Vanguard and Remington compare at the target??
Thanks for sharing the .257 information.  That was very educational.
Dan
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

Offline jro45

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #147 on: December 23, 2008, 03:30:59 AM »
My remingtons are great shooters. I have 3/4 Rems in my safe. I choose Rems a long time ago as the rifle I wanted. I 've had problems with one of them the 338 Ultra I had to
bed the action. Then the problem went away.

Offline no guns here

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #148 on: December 23, 2008, 03:53:08 AM »
add one more to the total.  I had one with a S&W 1000 20 gauge.  Hunting quail.  Walking along.  Gun pointed up.  Stumbled and jarred the gun.  BLAM!  No my finger wasn't on the trigger and yes the safety was on.  Thank goodness other safety rules were followed avoiding danger to other hunters or dogs.  Gun then was unloaded and carried back to the truck.  It was sent to a gunsmith for inspection/repair.  I'm not sure now what it was.  I was 14 at the time.  My dad handled it.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't reported to S&W.

ngh
"I feared for my life!"

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: 700 Remington Quality
« Reply #149 on: December 23, 2008, 05:30:37 AM »
There is one thing we all should be learning from this thread, if it wasn't driven home to you before, muzzle control is critical when you are handling any firearm.  That is what my father taught me and what I taught my children.  That is what I practice when I hunt.  I don't hesitate to complain when a hunting partner's barrel is inadvertently pointed in my direction.   Accidental discharges are not confined to any particular kind of firearm and they happen with enough frequency to give anybody pause.  It only takes one accidental discharge in the wrong direction to kill an innocent person (usually a friend or relative) and to ruin any number of lives.   

I have another accidental discharge story to add to the number.  The 8 year old brother of one of my daughter's friends was out on his first bird hunting trip with his dad earlier this fall.  He tripped and dropped his single shot 4/10.  The gun discharged and a few pellets hit him in the shoulder.  He was rushed to our children's hospital where they preformed surgery. Thankfully he is alright.  He has no idea how lucky he is.  A little to the right and he could have been killed.  The story isn't really relevant to this thread because I don't know if the shotgun's safety was engaged or if it was cocked and ready to fire.