700 Remington Quality

[One Eye]

There is one thing we all should be learning from this thread, if it wasn't driven home to you before, muzzle control is critical when you are handling any firearm.  That is what my father taught me and what I taught my children.  That is what I practice when I hunt.  I don't hesitate to complain when a hunting partner's barrel is inadvertently pointed in my direction.   Accidental discharges are not confined to any particular kind of firearm and they happen with enough frequency to give anybody pause.  It only takes one accidental discharge in the wrong direction to kill an innocent person (usually a friend or relative) and to ruin any number of lives.   

I have another accidental discharge story to add to the number.  The 8 year old brother of one of my daughter's friends was out on his first bird hunting trip with his dad earlier this fall.  He tripped and dropped his single shot 4/10.  The gun discharged and a few pellets hit him in the shoulder.  He was rushed to our children's hospital where they preformed surgery. Thankfully he is alright.  He has no idea how lucky he is.  A little to the right and he could have been killed.  The story isn't really relevant to this thread because I don't know if the shotgun's safety was engaged or if it was cocked and ready to fire. 

I am a walking testament to this.  In 1983, I was shot in the eye by another bowhunter who mistook me for a deer at dark.  I lost my left eye and nearly lost my life.

In 1985, I was shot in the right eye by a hunting partner while bird hunting.  A quail flushed my direction and he swung and shot.  The only pellet that hit was in my only remaining eye.  That eye was damaged so bad, that they would have removed it if I had not lost my left eye already.  After several retinal surgeries and a HUGE miracle, my vision was restored in that remaining eye.  I now have better than 20/20 vision with a strong pair of bifocals.

I agree with Ron 100%.  When my gun accidentally discharged, it was pointed in a safe direction.  Given that, I was sick to my stomach for hours.  That incident was over 20 years ago and it still weighs heavily on me.

Given what I have experienced, I am a safety fanatic.  I am almost a "pain in the a$$" when it comes to where people have their muzzles pointed, hunters orange, and knowing where everybody is sitting when I am hunting with partners.

Once you pull the trigger, you do not get a 'do over'.
Dan

[Skunk]

I am almost a "pain in the a$$" when it comes to where people have their muzzles pointed, hunters orange, and knowing where everybody is sitting when I am hunting with partners.

Good for you One Eye. After what you've been through, you have every right to be a pain about safety. Keep up the good work and insist they keep it safe. We should all be a pain when it comes to safety issues.

[Augustis]

 So let me ask this:

If in fact a company were to identify an actual 55.9% failure rate in a product line (Mohawk 600) out of a sampling of 615 NEW rifles gathered from wholesalers and tested, in anyones opinion do they have any obligation to their consumers that support them with their hard earned money to correct by retrofit, recall, or at the very leased warn their customers about the potential defect that could cause the offending malfunctions at the time the company identifies these conditions??

Or again if the development engineers of a product were to warn their superiors of various forms of malfunction, lets say at leased 2 years prior to production for release of that product to the public, should something have been done to mitigate that "dangerous condition" in light of the manufacturer always had the means to protect the design from the listed forms of malfunctions?

 With that how many customer complaints should any company have to receive from their customers before real action is taken to correct a condition that results in a gun firing with out intentional trigger contact being made, or the gun handler intending to discharge his or her firearm absent a trigger pull???

IMHO I think a fire control should do just that... Give the shooter CONTROL over WHEN a firearm may discharge. If you do not have control over WHEN an arm may discharge IMO creates an added element of risk... Maybe there should be a rating system for the inherant safety of a given firearm based off of testing: (Sarcasm)

 i.e Not for novice hunters, or old timers who have handled guns their whole life who may have become complacent in their gun handling ability.

What about LE snipers, who in some instances have their SWS pointed over the heads of their departments entry teams, or in the direction of a crisis situation unfolding before their eyes, should these operators have a reasonable expectation of a given level of performance from what has been suggested to be the "Most Popular Bolt Action Rifle In America"



Aug ><>

[AggieDog]

Fit and Finish? What the hey does that mean? I've a ton of 700's and not one would I give away. I bet the guys complaining are Tiikka, and CZ nuts. Go give those European's your money son, I buy american.

[Brithunter]

Yes fit and finishing which Remington forgot how to do a long time ago! bead blasting is a poor and cheap subsitute for proper polishing. We don't need to go into the use of tublar steel and brazing do we?

As for CZ owners, yes I do have one which I brought new on Christmas Eve 1997, it's a model ZKK 601 in 308 Win, and I also have a Brno Model 2 in 22 LR that was made in 1965 fitted with a period 3x Meopta scope in it's dedicated mount for the Brno Model 2 that was acquired a few years ago in like new condition.

  I do not have any Sako's or Tikka's but do have a few BSA's and Parker-Hale's, a Rigby Mannlicher, a Husqvana from 1935 and a DWM sporting rifle from around 1897 made for the Boers of South Africa that was used against the British during the 2nd Boer War. You will notice no American rifles although I did once have a Remington which was the biggest piece of junk I have evey seen, I also find the Remington 700 very uncomfortable to use and intensly dislike it's cheap construction. Some years ago I very nearly brought a 30-06 Winchester model 70 but didn't after recalling how the owner tended to over almost everything, a reflection on the owner not the rifle itself. I did have a nice Ruger No1B for a number of years but had to trade it to swing a deal in which I acquired the DWM Plezier rifle.

Perhaps you should remember that not everyone on these forums are from the US 

Now one day I do hope to acquire a classic Remington from the time when quality mattered to them and have my eye upon a Remington model 30 in 35 Remington that is in storage which reminds me it's about time I asked after it again to remind them that I am interested in it!

[Swampman]

You're just biased against American made products.  You've made that clear over & over.  If you are willing to accept piss poor accuracy then buy an off brand.  If you want the best, get a Remington 700.

[One Eye]

You're just biased against American made products.  You've made that clear over & over.  If you are willing to accept piss poor accuracy then buy an off brand.  If you want the best, get a Remington 700.

Perhaps some American companies should return to actually making quality products, rather than banking on big-money, Hollywood Hunters to hawk their declining products.  I gladly buy American when I can and when that company has "earned" my money with good value.
Dan

[Swampman]

There is no better centerfire production rifle than the Remington 700.  That makes it the best value.

[Brithunter]

You're just biased against American made products.  You've made that clear over & over.  If you are willing to accept piss poor accuracy then buy an off brand.  If you want the best, get a Remington 700.

As usual swampman your wrong, you should be used to it by now  , it's mediocre quality that I am against. As you well know from previous exchanges that I have American made articles like a vechicle and scopes, dies, knives and of course bullets not to mention books. The fact that I don't have any Remington rifles is a personal choice which will be altered when, and only when I can locate a nice Model 30 which of course is a Remington but of course made when quality was important to the Remington companies adminstration unlike the situation today.

Oh I do have an American made rifle it's a P-14 sporting rifle converted to sporting configuration by Century Arms, it's a pity that Century Arms also has a very poor customer service record, or so I have found, their Quality Control dept is also lacking as I had to have the rifle re-chambered to an improved configuration to correct a stupidly tight chamber that made reloading for it almost impossible as no die set that we could try would size cases down enough to chamber in it and we and dealers tried soem 5 sets from 3 different makers including RCBS, Lee and Redding. The base P-14 was or Winchester manufacture from the W prefix  .

[Swampman]

Just stating the facts.

[no guns here]

or... perhaps since you can't back the "facts" up with numbers or data then you are really just stating your opinion and couching it as a fact.  Don't get me wrong, I actually sort of like your blind love of Remington products.  I also sort of like your willingness to blindly and blithely make unsupported statements of fact.  I think it's a great thing that someone is that dedicated to a brand...  While I have not found Remington 700's to be the greatest thing since the invention of the wheel, I have no doubt that they are efficient, cost effective tools.  In fact, when I bought my very first deer rifle it was a Model 700 SS in .30-'06.  There are others that will shoot with the Remingtons all day long for the same price.  There are others that will out shoot the Remingtons from a NIB state.  Some won't keep up with the Remingtons.  I just try really hard to keep from making and ass of myself by stating my opinions as fact.  If I state something I will say whether it is opinion or fact or just a wild guess. 

Americans in general are so USA-centric that we don't realize that there are many companies around the world servicing the needs of hunters and shooters that don't have much access to RemChester products.  Most of these companies are producing arms that are every bit the equal to anything made in the US of A.  Many of these companies are still turning out arms that are made the way American companies used to produce them.  They are blued, polished, well-fitted and pretty to look at.  On top of that they are just as accurate as anything produced in the US.  In fact some brands set the de facto standard for accuracy and they don't come from the US.  Anschutz and FWB come to mind for competition rifles.  I've shot several production hunting rifle here in Germany that will easily shoot .5-.75 inch if you do your part.  These aren't heavy-barreled 10 pound varmint rifles either.  Slim, elegant, wood stocked, polished and blued.  They are also quite a bit more expensive than Remington products.  But you do indeed get what you pay for.

For $500 or less I get a plastic stock, a bead blasted barrel and a serviceable trigger.  It's a serviceable gun.  Doesn't matter if it says Remington, Winchester, Savage or Tikka on it.  It'll probably only shoot an inch or so at best.

For $2000 I get walnut, blued, polished, fitted, set triggers and probably some scroll work or engraving.  It will generally shoot an inch or less.  It won't say Remington, Winchester, Savage or Tikka on it unless you order from a Custom Shop.  Of course if you order from a Custom Shop, you aren't then getting a standard production M700/70/T3 whatever...

I would have to say that for me the "best" rifle I have ever shot would be a Blaser R93 with a fluted, semi-weight barrel in .308 Win.  Around a half inch easily.  Very easy to shoot.  Very fast action.  Much faster than a traditional bolt (at least for me).  If I could afford to spend $2-3000 on a rifle I would buy one in a heartbeat and probably never mention the word Remington again.

Each to his own... I daresay that Brithunter has had a wider selection of brands/models than most here and should have a good handle on which are accurate.  I have Remington, Ruger, Marlin, Savage, Tikka, Steyr, Colt and Winchester.  They are all accurate enough to do the job required of them.  None shoot over about 1.5 inches.  Only two shoot sub inch regularly.  The Ruger 77 6mm and the Tikka T3 .308.  I have a hunch the Steyr would if I would get off my butt and get a scope on it.  I have manged a couple of honest two inch groups with the factory iron sights at 100 meters so I think it'll go lower if I could see better.  If it gets to an inch then I guess I'll take it off the market and keep it.

Wow this really rambled and got long...

Y'all have a good new year!

ngh

[Coyote Hunter]

So let me ask this:

If in fact a company were to identify an actual 55.9% failure rate in a product line (Mohawk 600) out of a sampling of 615 NEW rifles gathered from wholesalers and tested, in anyones opinion do they have any obligation to their consumers that support them with their hard earned money to correct by retrofit, recall, or at the very leased warn their customers about the potential defect that could cause the offending malfunctions at the time the company identifies these conditions??

Failure to do so would be (and was) criminally negligent, IMHO.

Or again if the development engineers of a product were to warn their superiors of various forms of malfunction, lets say at leased 2 years prior to production for release of that product to the public, should something have been done to mitigate that "dangerous condition" in light of the manufacturer always had the means to protect the design from the listed forms of malfunctions?

Again, given the type of product and the potential dangers, failure to do so was criminally negligent, IMHO.

With that how many customer complaints should any company have to receive from their customers before real action is taken to correct a condition that results in a gun firing with out intentional trigger contact being made, or the gun handler intending to discharge his or her firearm absent a trigger pull???

The bean counters won the argument - they figured it was cheaper to pay the lawsuits than correct the real problem.  In other words, Remington displayed a gross disregard for the safety of their customers AND the public at large, including innocent bystanders.

Sako will never get a single dollar of mine because of the way they (mis)handled the problem with bad stainless barrels.

Ruger will continue to get much of my business because of the way they handle product issues and customer support.

IMHO I think a fire control should do just that... Give the shooter CONTROL over WHEN a firearm may discharge. If you do not have control over WHEN an arm may discharge IMO creates an added element of risk...

Agree 100%.

My ONE Remington M700 with the old style safety has been back to the factory to have the safety modified so that I can open the bolt and unload without taking the safety off.  Given the problems with the old style safety I chose to have the modification done immediately after buying the (used) Remington.  It didn't even one trip to the range before going back to a Remington certified repair facility.  At least the cost of the modification was covered by Remington under their product recall, but I believe there was a time limit on the safety recall and I just beat the deadline.

[Swampman]

I'd have left it alone.  There never was a problem with the guns.

If you are willing to settle for inferior accuracy & quality buy something other than a Remington.  It's a free country.

[DebosDave]

Augustis,

I thank you for your efforts to try and disseminate this information about the trigger problems in the Remingtons.  I can't imagine how much time and money you have spent to research this information, but think it is an incredible thing that you are making the attempt to educate the members of this site.  Don't let the blatant ignorance of some dissuade you from your efforts.  There were those that thought the automobile would never overtake the horse, and that man would never fly much less land on the moon, and there's no way that internet thing will ever work!  It is amazing to see such blind ingnorance of fact though, this denial is something in a class all of its own! 

Anyway, I have personally had a non-intentional discharge, and personally witnessed another both from Remington 700s.  I have also talked with two other individuals with similar instances.  One guy told me his father shot through their windshield with a 700, the other guy I just talked to recently, and I tried to convince him to replace his trigger.  His thought was that it just needs to be looked at by a gunsmith, which while the gunsmith may re-adjust and clean the trigger, won't cure the problem, only delay the instance of another non-intentional discharge, and I pray that he or whomever owns the rifle will be following Remingtons "laws of gun safety" when it does indeed happen again.   

I can't understand why people won't recognize this problem??  Even when presented with facts that can't be disputed, folks continue to deny that a problem exists??  Even when Remington does a recall so they can attempt to limit their liability, no one is listening??  Even when shown information that proves Remington recognizes the problem and has chosen to settle vs fixing the problem, we don't demand a fix?? 

As witnessed by the millions of rifles in the public, we have funneled billions of dollars into this company, and they have made a decision based first on pennies, and later on millions to go the route of the bottom line.  They put a dollar value on your and my lives, in an equation, and the cost of lives vs the cost of recall won out.  That makes me sick to my stomach.  By Remington's own conservative estimate, there are 1% dangerous rifles in the market, with 5 million sold that means 50,000 or more are prone to fire un-intentionally... where are they?  I hope we all think of that fact when we are out hunting or shooting with a rifle wearing a trigger connector fire control.  I pray for all of you, even you Swampy, that you never have a loved one, or even someone innocent nearby to you that ends up getting injured or even killed due to a ND.  The problem is small enough to Remington they will not fix it, but I can guarantee if the problem happens to you, it will seem like a lot bigger problem...  Like said somewhere before, this can be a potential life changing issue....  and it changes peoples lives every year, but I guess as long as it doesn't happen to me, I have no obligation to try and change it, or even recognize it... 

Also BTW, cutting the bolt lock off the safety doesn't fix the problem, it mainly allows you to circumvent the potential for it to happen, even this doesn't prevent the gun from ND, but will allow you to open the bolt while it is still on 'safe' to unload.  The removal of the bolt lock is definately a must, but that doesn't change the inherent danger designed right into the trigger connector.  It only circumvents one side effect of its design. 

Final thought:  Be careful, and just get a new trigger, a Shilen replacement can be had for $75...  how much is preventing even a 1% chance that someone you love will be injured worth?

Dave

[Coyote Hunter]

I'd have left it alone.  There never was a problem with the guns.

You prove the adage "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

If you are willing to settle for inferior accuracy & quality buy something other than a Remington.  It's a free country.

If that statement were true, my Remingotn M700 should be my most accurate rifle.  While accurate, it is NOT my most accurate factory rifle.  As to quality, I'll take my Rugers for dependability and feel, while admitting they are not as aesthetically pleasing to the eye as my BDL.

[Coyote Hunter]

...
Also BTW, cutting the bolt lock off the safety doesn't fix the problem, it mainly allows you to circumvent the potential for it to happen, even this doesn't prevent the gun from ND, but will allow you to open the bolt while it is still on 'safe' to unload.  The removal of the bolt lock is definately a must, but that doesn't change the inherent danger designed right into the trigger connector.  It only circumvents one side effect of its design. 
...

Good point, and exactly why I had the rifle sent back to a Remington repair facility.  It will probably get a Timney one of these days.

[Swampman]

I'll take my Rugers for dependability

I don't like cast metal receivers & bolts.

[Coyote Hunter]

I'll take my Rugers for dependability

I don't like cast metal receivers & bolts.

I don't like:
1. Extractors that break.
2. Bolt handles that come off.
3. Firearms that fire when the safety is released.

Remington has all of these problems.  Never heard of a Ruger extractor breaking or the bolt handle coming off a Ruger one-piece bolt.  Remington admits as many as 1% of their M700s have the safety problem but have never heard of a similar problem with a Ruger.

By the way, my most accurate rifle is a Ruger.

But hey, the Remington BDL and CDL rifles LOOK better.

[Swampman]

Because they are better....a lot better!

[Brithunter]

Because they are better....a lot better!

ahhh swampy,

         You like that scratchy tired ole 78 going round and round. It's a pity really that someone can be so dumb 

[Swampman]

It's a pity more people aren't immovable.  I've been shooting Remington products since the early 1960s.  I've never seen a bad one.

I've seen tons of other brands on the other hand that were at best bad copies, and at worst pure junk.

[700xcr]

Safety on all guns are mechanical. Mechanical things break once in a while. Common sense should be at hand by one operating a firearm. Had a hunting partner with a Winchester Pre 64 had a safety problem and it discharged while going from safe psition to middle position to open the bolt luckily had it in a safe direction at the time.

[Coyote Hunter]

Here's a sample of Remington quality:


Here's what the owner said about it:

This is a 30-06 M-700 Remingtin Titanium Mountain Rifle.

This stock failure looks like it slide down a hill. NOPE....

Maybe crushed in a bear attack..... Nope....

It was making cracking and crunching sounds around the action so I flexed it with my hands and it broke in two!!!!!!! It sheared off the trigger while busting as well!!!!! One local therory is that I weakened it by firing it from a Lead Sled a few too many times last week.....WTH..

Can you believe this? And of course since I had the rifle coated and the forearm glass bedded, it voided any warranty.

Man, am I steamed......!!!!!

[Coyote Hunter]

Safety on all guns are mechanical. Mechanical things break once in a while. Common sense should be at hand by one operating a firearm. ...

Very true.  It is also true, however, that a firearms manufacturer should take extra care to ensure that a SAFETY is just that - SAFE.  When as many as 1% of M700 safeties and 50% of M600 safeties had a problem there is a serious problem with the product design.

[AggieDog]

Mind me asking who makes you qualified to make that statement?

[AggieDog]

I'll take my Rugers for dependability

By the way, my most accurate rifle is a Ruger.

My experience is that Rugers arent very accurate, that is why I re barreled 2 of my Rugers..............All of my 700's are tack drivers. I call BS on you,.

[Coyote Hunter]

Mind me asking who makes you qualified to make that statement?

It is my opinion, but it is also common sense - something that is sometimes in short supply around here - and something Remington has admitted to.

Would it make sense for a firearms manufacturer to make sure their safties are UNSAFE?  No...

Did Remington admit that up to 1% of the M700's and 50% of the M600's had a problem with the safeties?  Yes...

[Coyote Hunter]

I'll take my Rugers for dependability

By the way, my most accurate rifle is a Ruger.

My experience is that Rugers arent very accurate, that is why I re barreled 2 of my Rugers..............All of my 700's are tack drivers. I call BS on you,.

Not very smart to call someone a liar - which is what you are doing - when you know little or nothing about them.

Here is a photo of a target shot at 100 yards with my Ruger M77 .257 Roberts.  It would be nice if my Remington M700 BDL .308 Win shot as nice, but it doesn't.  The Ruger .257 Roberts is one of the rifles I choose when shooting clay pigeons at 400 yards.  A friend and I  went 2 of 4 on clay pigeons at 500 yards with the Ruger .257 Roberts.   Another rifle I use a lot for long range clay pigeons  is my Ruger M77 MKII .22-250, which has put 4 shots into 0.5" at 200 yards.  Sorry, no pictures of that target.



Here's a photo of a target shot with my Ruger M77 in 7mm Rem Mag, also at 100 yards and in a gusty, 40mph crosswind.   Best group for this rifle was 3 shots into .25" at 100 yards.  No photo for that one but maybe I could dig the target up, take a photo and post it.


Here's a target from my Ruger M77 .30-06.  This target was at 100 yards and was shot as a final check before going elk hunting.



Here's a target from my Ruger M77 MKII in .300 Win Mag.  First shot flyer was from a clean barrel.  Not a great group, but not bad. 



All of the above pictures have been posted multiple times on this forum and on 24hourcampfire.com, along with descriptions.  You should be able to find them without much trouble if you look.

None of my Rugers have had anything done to them except to float the barrel (none are bedded) and polish up the trigger - the same treatment all my bolt guns get unless they are already floated.  My Remington M700 BDL has also had the barrel floated and the trigger adjusted.

Its pretty obvious from the photos that Rugers can be quite accurate.  My two most accurate rifles?  The Ruger .257 Roberts and the Ruger .22-250.  Accurate as my Remington BDL .308 Win is, it can't match them.  My Remington M700 .30-06 isn't even close.

[Bart Solo]

I used to own a Ruger Mini 14 that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn so I have to say the Mini-14's reputation as a poor shooter is well deserved. That said I have never heard that Ruger M77s were any better or worse than any comparable turn bolt.   

[Coyote Hunter]

I used to own a Ruger Mini 14 that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn so I have to say the Mini-14's reputation as a poor shooter is well deserved. That said I have never heard that Ruger M77s were any better or worse than any comparable turn bolt.   

My brother has owned a couple Mini-14s for many years now.  I won't bother shooting them because their lack of accuracy is so frustrating.  His .22-250, however, is a tack driver.  My hunting buddy has a Ruger M77 MKII in 7mm Rem Mag and it also shoots very well.

Back before Ruger started making their own hammer forged barrels they had a problem with inconsistent barrels on their bolt guns.  That changed, however, back in the 80's.  Three of my Rugers were made in the 80s and all shoot very well (7mm RM, 1982; .30-06, 1984; .257 Roberts, 1989) as demonstrated by the targets posted above.

Two years ago I mounted a scope on a friend's new Remington M700 in .30-06 and sighted it in with several different kinds of factory ammo (Remington, Hornady, Federal and Winchester, with two different weights of each brand).  Accuracy was OK for hunting but at 1-1/4 MOA at best it was also rather disappointing.  When I got a new Remington M700 in .30-06 early in 2008 I was also disappointed with its accuracy as it also ran right around 1-1/4 MOA at best.  It's still a keeper, but it won't run with my Rugers.