700 Remington Quality

[jro45]

I own several Rem. 700 action rifles. I never had any problems with any of them. As what was said already The 700 actions are a quality first class action. I would say it is in your reloading and sizeing.

[Bart Solo]

Augustis has made a compelling case that the older M700s were defective, and that Remington tried to fix the defect with the  newer bolt/safety arrangement.

I read the whole thing several times, and I never saw that..........

Which part? That there was a problem, or that Remington tried to fix it?

[Augustis]

Augustis has made a compelling case that the older M700s were defective, and that Remington tried to fix the defect with the  newer bolt/safety arrangement.

I read the whole thing several times, and I never saw that..........

Which part? That there was a problem, or that Remington tried to fix it?

I think what I indicated was... that  "Old Remington" (Remington/DuPont) initiated a program as a "fix" in the mid 70s through the "M/700 Fire Control Improvement Program". Until the program designation containing the SAME design objectives, being conducted by the SAME designer (Fred Martin) with the exception that the name was changed to "The NBAR Program" in late 1981, when the M/700 product file appeared come to an abrupt and complete end.

While I believe the program design objectives were met, Old Remington failed to implement the design changes to the  production level.... In other words the new fire control design never made it out to the public.

Richard C. Miller believed the change in the name designation of the program to NBAR was to "Hide The Ball" from him, with regard to a program to replace the defective fire control on the M/700 product line. Which prevented Rich from discovering evidence related to this program because he did not use the correct acronym NBAR. The existance of the NBAR program was discovered by sheer accident many years later, after the conception of the program was first initiated in 1981.

Aug ><>

 

[dean51]

I have only had one problem and that was with a early model seven in 308,the action was binding,I found out later that a po had lapped the bolt in.  The safe is full of Remingtons and I will try a sps tactical soon. Anyone have any experience with those?  Dean

[Coyote Hunter]

Augustis has made a compelling case that the older M700s were defective, and that Remington tried to fix the defect with the  newer bolt/safety arrangement.

I read the whole thing several times, and I never saw that..........

You miss a lot when you keep your eyes and mind closed...

[Swampman]

Augustis has made a compelling case that the older M700s were defective, and that Remington tried to fix the defect with the  newer bolt/safety arrangement.

I read the whole thing several times, and I never saw that..........

Which part? That there was a problem, or that Remington tried to fix it?

Either, Remington fixed something that wasn't a problem to keep idiots from shooting themselves.  Ruger did the same thing with their Black Hawk pistols.

[Augustis]

Augustis has made a compelling case that the older M700s were defective, and that Remington tried to fix the defect with the  newer bolt/safety arrangement.

I read the whole thing several times, and I never saw that..........

Which part? That there was a problem, or that Remington tried to fix it?

Either, Remington fixed something that wasn't a problem to keep idiots from shooting themselves.

Or???

[Bart Solo]

Swampman,  do you read with your eyes open? That there was a problem is pretty well documented.  That Remington took actions intended to fix the problem are also well documented.    

You admit that the public believed there was a problem and that Remington took steps to make the public happy, but you deny there was a problem.  If the public thought there was a problem with the M700 firing prematurely there was a problem. If given the choice between two products most people will chose the one with the better reputation for safety.  In this case the reports read by the public seem to have focused on discharges that happened as the rifle was being unloaded. That Remington felt compelled to fix the problem confirms that they thought the problem was significant enough to spend a lot of money and energy fixing it.  

I do agree that we should always point the muzzle of every firearm in a safe direction, but most of us realize that in real life stuff happens.  

The questions here are: When did Remington finally take steps to fix the problem? Were the steps successful? and What about all the firearms produced before the fix?

[Augustis]

Here is the entire content of the record that was discovered by sheer accident, that I referenced in my previous post. Apparently this record was stuck to another page of some discovery materials being reviewed at Defence councils office that was mistakenly not culled from the files being reviewed according to Richard Miller.

Firearms Business Team meeting
May 31,1985

File: Bolt Action Rifle
(Replacement For The Model 700)

JW Bowers Letter to WH Coleman II

9. New Bolt Action Rifle

This Rifle has been designed as a replacement for the Model 700. Technical improvements include:

An Improved Fire Control Containing:
Preset engagement and overtravel

Customer adjustable trigger pull to a safe lower limit

Steel trigger and sear

A safety that blocks Both the trigger and sear

A bolt lock which allows the customer to unload the gun with the safety on

Marketing has completed initial focus panels to guide design evolution.

Revisions to the fire control are in the final design stage. Additional prototypes will be ready for development testing this summer.

End of entire content of the record that alerted Rich Miller to the NBAR existence of the NBAR Program.

[Augustis]

Swampman,  do you read with your eyes open? That there was a problem is pretty well documented.  That Remington took actions intended to fix the problem are also well documented.     

You admit that the public believed there was a problem and that Remington took steps to make the public happy, but you deny there was a problem.  If the public thought there was a problem with the M700 firing prematurely there was a problem. If given the choice between two products most people will chose the one with the better reputation for safety.  In this case the reports read by the public seem to have focused on discharges that happened as the rifle was being unloaded. That Remington felt compelled to fix the problem confirms that they thought the problem was significant enough to spend a lot of money and energy fixing it. 

I do agree that we should always point the muzzle of every firearm in a safe direction, but most of us realize that in real life stuff happens.   

The questions here are: When did Remington finally take steps to fix the problem? Were the steps successful? and What about all the firearms produced before the fix?

Decemebr 31, 2006 when the X Mark was released to the public. The X Mark is a CONNECTORLESS, One Piece Trigger design and has the added benefit of a trigger block AND sear block safety.

To answer your last question:

According to engineering authorities, firearm design experts and  Richard C. Miller who stated on National TV News broadcast, every fire control that contains a "Resiliently Trigger Connector" design fire control has the "potential" to malfunction. With that, possibly over 5 million effected units are in the field today!

 I personally have grave concerns that these potential suspect rifles will be killing our grand children's grand children.... As we pass these family heirlooms down to our children, the next generation will continue to suffer the consequences of poor business decisions, irresponsible business practices and deception, fed in part by secrecy in OUR public court system. Which has further served by design to further allow the cycle to continue well into future generations.... already! Think about that for a moment!

Aug ><>

[Coyote Hunter]

Either, Remington fixed something that wasn't a problem to keep idiots from shooting themselves.

Remington partially fixed a problem that allowed their M700 and M600 rifles to fire when the safety was released.  Frankly, even if no one gets shot and I am following all the safety rules, I do NOT want my firearms discharging when the safety is released.

This was and remains a problem for many Remington firearms.

Ruger did the same thing with their Black Hawk pistols.

By “same thing”, you mean offer a solution to a safety problem?    If so you are admitting the problem you have continually denied the existence of did in fact exist.

Never mind that what Ruger or any other firearms manufacturer has or has not done is totally irrelevant.

[BBW]

Well, I'd like to weigh in on this question of Remington quality.

I've bought eight Remingtons over the last ten years.  Of those four have had serious issues.  I'll explain.

I bought a 700 BDL in 243 win.  That's been a great rifle. No problems whatsoever.  Similarly I bought an Express mag 870 last year that to the best of my knowledge has no problems.  (I haven't shot it a lot though, so I kind of wonder what's in store.)  Similarly I have an 1100 and 11-87 that haven't given me any trouble.

Now to the ugly.  In early 2000 I bought an express super mag.  It would shoot 2.75" and 3" shells no problem.  But whenever you fired a 3.5" shell it would jam in the chamber so badly that you had do pull the barrel off to get it back out.  Apparently the chamber wasn't cut properly.  I sold that one to a buddy who only wanted to shoot 3" shells out of it.

Then I bought an 870P.  That one would eject shells, but the shell in the mag tube would not enter the receiver.  So the gun was an expensive single shot.  I took it to a Remington shop and it's been fine since they fixed it.  The guy there said they had machined the receiver incorrectly.

Then a while back I splurged and ordered a Wingmaster 28ga.  When I went to the store to pick it up I found that there were gouges in the metal all the way through the finish.  Similarly the wood on the foreend looked as if someone had been gouging away at it with a chisel.  I told the store owner that I was sorry, but that they would have to order a different one.  No way am I paying $800+ for something like that.  I'd really love to hear how that one ever got out of the factory for that matter.  The second one he got for me appears to be quite nice, though I haven't fired it that much yet.

Then a few weeks ago I ordered a 700xcr in 375H&H.  I took it home, cleaned the barrel and cycled the action a few times.  In doing so the bolt handle popped right off in my hand.  Now bear in mind that this rifle had never had a round chambered (by me at least) let alone having ever been fired.  So this wasn't a stuck bolt due to a hot reload or anything like that.  The handle simply popped off.

And now begins my experience with Remington's customer support.  Naturally I went back to the store I bought it from the next day (bolt handle in hand) and we called Remington's customer support.  The guy there said that they would UPS me a box to return the rifle to them in and that it would take about three weeks to get fixed.  I wasn't really happy about that, but whatever.  A week went by and I hadn't seen a box (and UPS takes only two days max from NY to VT).  So I called them.  The woman I spoke with said they hadn't shipped the box for whatever reason and that she would get it right out.  The next day I got a UPS shipping label but no box.  Two days later (still no box) I got fed up and went back to the gun store and pulled a shipping box out of their trash.  Then I sent it off.  Now here I am two weeks into the point from which they told me it would take three weeks.  I called Remington for an update.  The guy I spoke with said it would take two weeks for it to even get out of their receiving department and that the whole thing would probably take six more weeks.  I reminded him that I had been told it would take three weeks and that by my count that left them with one more week to get it fixed and back to me.  He was about as helpful as a rock.

I told them to just send it back to me and I'd simply return it.  Apparently they can't be bothered to send someone down to receiving and dig it out for me.  Too much work for them I suppose.


So now I'm just kind of in limbo.  I shelled out over $800 for this thing, and now I have no rifle, I'm out my money, and my confidence that Remington will be competent enough to fix this thing at all is diminishing towards zero.

I love the classic Remington designs.  But the current Remington Arms Co. seems to have serious problems both with quality control and with customer support.  I don't think I'll be feeling the need to buy anything else from them until they get their act together.

Ben

[Skunk]

BBW,

Good post. Thanks for sharing. Happy to hear about your good experiences; sorry to hear about the bad ones.

The bolt handle popping off is inexcusable, especially after Swampman has assured us that it could never happen to a Remington.

[BBW]

:-)  Not sure I want to get into that argument . . .

But rest assured it can happen.  And in this case it's not as if the bolt was stuck and I really had to reef on it.  It just popped off with virtually no effort.  Clearly they simply hadn't welded or braised it on right (however they do it).  And whoever was on QC that shift (if they even have such a position) was asleep at the switch.

And stop and think for a second that this is a 375H&H.  Can you imagine being somewhere on the coast of Alaska and you startle a big griz at close range.  You go to work a round into the chamber and the bolt handle pops off in your hand???  Uh oh!!!

And you know what kills me?  I've talked to 4-5 different people at Remington in the past two weeks about this.  Not one has given me the slightest apology.  You would think someone would have the decency to say "wow, you spent that much money on one of our products and it fell apart on you when you got it home?  I'm so sorry about that."

Nothing, nada, I have no indication whatsoever that anyone there gives a crap.

Ben

[Skunk]

I hear you BBW. Thankfully it broke before you ever got into a showdown with a Griz. As far as the lack of customer appreciation,  I suspect that many of the folks at Remington, as well as any other manufacturer, are there to put in their hours, watch the clock, get paid, and go home.

[BBW]

I don't know that I agree.  It's a question of company philosophy.  If Remington placed an emphasis on customer support it would come through in their customer interactions.  The fact that it's so appalling suggests that they as a company just don't give a damn.  They're out to push product and once a guy's plunked down his $800 their use for him is all done.

Hopefully, hopefully Cerberus will sell this icon of American industry to someone who can run it like a gun manufacturer should be.

I should point out that in the time I've bought those eight Remingtons I've probably bought 25 others from Companies like Savage, Rock River, Springfield, Ruger, Browning, Benelli, Kimber, etc.  The only ones have I had any problems with are the four Remingtons.

Ben

[AtlLaw]

the current Remington Arms Co. seems to have serious problems both with quality control and with customer support.

Hey Ben,
If it makes you feel any better, the customer support people who aren't good enough for Remington go to work for Taurus...   

[BBW]

That's funny!  I can't say I've ever owned a Taurus.  I've owned a couple of Smith and Wessons.  I had a model 19 I had to send back to them because the firing pin bushing had worn out.  (That was through being shot a lot, not because of any defect.)

Smith was a class act to work with.  They were professional, courteous, and got me the gun back in about two weeks.  And it was clear that I was dealing with gun people the whole time, not the dull-eye clock punchers I seem to be dealing with at Remington.

I guess that's the difference when you make a quality product.  I can believe Remington's repair shop is backed way up based on what I've seen of their products.

Note to Swampman:  I agree with you a full 50%.  The 700 is hands down the best rifle design ever, bar none.  (As is the 870 for repeating shotguns.)  But the execution of that design by the current Big Green leaves much to be desired.  We need to get the company back in the hands of people who love rifles, not just the money that can be made from pushing product.

Ben

[jro45]

I own quite a few model 700s and never had any problems with any of them. I figure theres got to be one bad apple in the bunch. Have you talked to Rem?

[BBW]

Yeah, I've been working my way up through their management structure and such, trying to get things moving.  We'll see how that works.

I hear you on the one bad apple thing.  But four bad apples out of seven?  It seems like the odds that I've just had bad luck with four out of the seven I bought are pretty long.  And as I mentioned, I haven't had issues with the non-Remington guns I've bought, so it's not just that I'm one of those guys who complains about everything.

Shotguns that won't cycle and bolt handles falling off; these are real problems, not imaginary.

Ben

[mechanic]

After reading here a while, I have decided I don't want a serious argument with any of you guys..........

[*ROCK-MAN*]

I purchased a 70's era Model 700BDL in 30-06 from a gentleman about three years ago.Beautifull wood and sub MOA at the range.When I learned of the problems reported with the old style safety and Remington's Safety modification program I sent the rifle in.A well know gunsmith in our area had adjusted my trigger but he had gone a little to far and the pin would drop unannounced sometimes.I put a note in with the rifle to remington about this problem.It was getting close to hunting season but they expedited the modification and sent my rifle back in time for me to hunt with it.It came back with  a NEW TRIGGER ASSEMBLY at no charge to me.All I paid was shipping.If you have any doubts about the safety on older Models you check the trigger.The ones that have the modification done are stamped and if your's isn't send it to them and you only pay the shipping charges for the modification.I would not trade this rifle for a brand new one.My Daughter has a M 600 Mohawk in 243 that my dad passed down to her.The trigger was stamped when I checked it so the modification was done in the past.I took four Whitetails with it this year.Two bucks and two does.It shoots like a dream.I have two 1100's in the cabinet that never fail to chamber rounds.
Am I a REMINGTON FAN ?
YOU BET YUR ARSE !

[Augustis]

I purchased a 70's era Model 700BDL in 30-06 from a gentleman about three years ago.Beautifull wood and sub MOA at the range.When I learned of the problems reported with the old style safety and Remington's Safety modification program I sent the rifle in.A well know gunsmith in our area had adjusted my trigger but he had gone a little to far and the pin would drop unannounced sometimes.I put a note in with the rifle to remington about this problem.It was getting close to hunting season but they expedited the modification and sent my rifle back in time for me to hunt with it.It came back with  a NEW TRIGGER ASSEMBLY at no charge to me.All I paid was shipping.If you have any doubts about the safety on older Models you check the trigger.The ones that have the modification done are stamped and if your's isn't send it to them and you only pay the shipping charges for the modification.I would not trade this rifle for a brand new one.My Daughter has a M 600 Mohawk in 243 that my dad passed down to her.The trigger was stamped when I checked it so the modification was done in the past.I took four Whitetails with it this year.Two bucks and two does.It shoots like a dream.I have two 1100's in the cabinet that never fail to chamber rounds.
Am I a REMINGTON FAN ?
YOU BET YUR ARSE !

The Mohawk 600 had a "V" stamped on the side of the trigger bow IF it was updated during the 1978 recall, again IF it fell into the production date range of the disclosed effected rifles. What was done was the M/600 series fire contol was retrofitted with a redesigned M/700 fire control as the replacement at that time. It still has a "Trigger Connector" and  with that potential susceptibility to the same forms of malfunctions as before the retrofit,  FYI...


Aug ><>

[BBW]

I purchased a 70's era Model 700BDL in 30-06 from a gentleman about three years ago.Beautifull wood and sub MOA at the range.When I learned of the problems reported with the old style safety and Remington's Safety modification program I sent the rifle in.A well know gunsmith in our area had adjusted my trigger but he had gone a little to far and the pin would drop unannounced sometimes.I put a note in with the rifle to remington about this problem.It was getting close to hunting season but they expedited the modification and sent my rifle back in time for me to hunt with it.It came back with  a NEW TRIGGER ASSEMBLY at no charge to me.All I paid was shipping.If you have any doubts about the safety on older Models you check the trigger.The ones that have the modification done are stamped and if your's isn't send it to them and you only pay the shipping charges for the modification.I would not trade this rifle for a brand new one.My Daughter has a M 600 Mohawk in 243 that my dad passed down to her.The trigger was stamped when I checked it so the modification was done in the past.I took four Whitetails with it this year.Two bucks and two does.It shoots like a dream.I have two 1100's in the cabinet that never fail to chamber rounds.
Am I a REMINGTON FAN ?
YOU BET YUR ARSE !

Glad you had a better experience with their repair shop than I'm having.  Before I shipped the gun to them they told me it would be three weeks.  Then as soon as I had mailed it off they said, oops, we really meant two months.  (And they won't just mail it back to me.)  Sounds like a bait and switch to me.  If I had known it was two months I would have just returned the firearm to the distributor and had them send me one that wasn't defective.

Remington Arms, Caveat emptor.

Ben

[Skunk]

BBW,

Was reading another forum today and a fellow had the same problem as you, except his rig was a Stainless 5R Mil-Spec: just cycling the bolt and the handle fell off.

[BBW]

I wonder if they bought a bad batch of silver solder or something???  I've heard more than a few cases of the same thing happening.

BTW -I saw you had the model 70 in your avatar.  Any idea when the new Winchester company is going to release the model 70 in 375?  If they had a stainless one I probably wouldn't have bought the Remington in the first place.  But I don't see anything listed on their web page.

Ben

[Skunk]

BTW -I saw you had the model 70 in your avatar.  Any idea when the new Winchester company is going to release the model 70 in 375?

That's a good question Ben. It doesn't look like anywhere in the near future. In fact, I've heard from some reports that none of the Stainless rifles are going to be released until around the middle of 09. On the other hand, I've also heard the SS models will be released yet this month. So who knows? I've heard no reports at all about 375s.

[kiddekop]

You guys must have the worst luck in the world.  Problems caused by reloaders shouldn't be blamed on the rifle.  I've never seen a Remington that wasn't nicely finished & well fitted.  They are of course "the best selling bolt action rifle in the world" and also "the most accurate production rifle you can buy."  In order to get Remington quality you'll spend twice the price.  They are a bargin if you look at what you get.

I wouldn't own anything else.

Remington triggers and safeties that acted as triggers wwas an ongoing problem for a lot of years.

[351 power]

i read this thread awhile ago and did check my 700. i decided to take the safety leaver off and cut off the bolt stop portion. now i can unload with the safety on. this was a suggested modification. it's a 1968 rifle. is there any other thing i should do?

[BBW]

BTW -I saw you had the model 70 in your avatar.  Any idea when the new Winchester company is going to release the model 70 in 375?

That's a good question Ben. It doesn't look like anywhere in the near future. In fact, I've heard from some reports that none of the Stainless rifles are going to be released until around the middle of 09. On the other hand, I've also heard the SS models will be released yet this month. So who knows? I've heard no reports at all about 375s.

I hope they do.  The SS model 70 in 375H&H was a great all around dangerous game rifle.  I know that the old USRAC had their own quality control issues towards the end.  But if the new company could make one that's screwed together well it could be a great rifle.

Ben