700 Remington Quality

[Coyote Hunter]

Nothing wrong with Remington M700’s

correct!
All the rest is a myth.

If all the rest is a myth, you contradict yourself.  In one post you contend “Silly is a matter of opinion.”  I agreed, stating “You got that one right.”  Now, by contending that “All the rest is a myth”, you contend that I am wrong in agreeing with you - which makes you wrong as well.  Must be an interesting world you live in…

You claim you’ll “stick with the facts”, but you run from them as if they had the plague.

Here are the facts, which you contend are “myths”:

1.   I believe you are immature, insecure, stupid, ignorant and dishonest.  Since that is a matter of personal belief on my part, contending otherwise on your part simply confirms it.

2.   The days of $350 Remington M700s at Wal-Mart are long gone, at least where I live.  I know, because I often stop by the one remaining Wal-Mart store in the area that still sells firearms.

3.   An average Remington M700 with a sporter weight factory barrel is not capable of running with a custom rifle featuring a tuned and bedded action with a floated, match-grade varmint-weight barrel.  While factory-stock Remington M700’s with standard factory barrels are capable of fine hunting accuracy, most competitive shooters who use M700 actions (non F-Class) replace the factory barrel, true the receiver face, lap the bolt lugs, replace the trigger and make other changes.

4.    6.5mm bullets are available with higher Ballistic Coefficients than bullets available for the .270 Win and .30-06.  In hunting bullets the Swift Scirocco II 130g with a BC of .571, for example, beats the Scirocco II’s for the .270 Win and .30-06.  In target bullets the 6.5mm 140g Berger VLD with a BC of .618 beats anything available for the .270 Win or .30-06 in Berger VLDs.  And so it goes.

5.   The 6.5mm-06AI can launch the 130g Scirocco II’s at 3200fps or faster.  Because of the high BC, nothing the .270 Win or .30-06 can do can match the trajectory or retained velocity at extended ranges (past 700-800 yards or so, depending on specific loads).  Although the .270 Win and .30-06 may deliver more energy at close ranges, that advantage also disappears at extended ranges.  Beyond 800 yards, the 6.5mm-06AI wins.  If you believe otherwise you haven’t done the math. 

6.   6.5mm’s are very popular with long range shooters.  If you believe that’s a myth, once again you have not done your homework.

7.   6.5mm-06 brass can be made from .25-06, .270 Win, .280 Rem and .30-06 brass.  Properly headstamped 6.5mm-06 brass is available as well, from Quality Cartridge.  If you believe these facts are “myths”, all I can say is there are none so blind as those who will not see.

8.   Resale value on a custom 6.5mm-06AI will be just fine.  No, not every sheeple will want the rifle, but there are plenty of people who understand what the 6.5’s are capable of who would like to have a rifle chambered in 6.5mm-06AI without having to go to the trouble of custom building one.  Resale value, however, is not a concern and has played no part in my decision in which cartridge to chamber the rifle.

9.   Remington M700 bolt handles do break off – not often, but often enough, and often during normal use.  In addition, the extractors and ejectors break as well - not on every rifle, but with an annoying frequency dictated by the use of small springs that are subject to malfunction due to the effects of dirt, gunpowder residue, corrosion and other factors.  One-piece bolts and bolts with welded on handles, Mauser-type extractors and Mauser-type fixed-blade ejectors are far less subject to malfunction.  The Remington M700 was designed to be relatively inexpensive to manufacture and some desirable features went by the wayside as a result.  While there is nothing wrong with the design decisions, which resulted in a good and affordable product which became very popular, the fact remains that tradeoffs between reliability and cost were made.

These are facts, not fantasy. 

[burntmuch]

This has got to be the most riden dead horse Ive ever seen . But I jump on. I like my 700s. 7mag, 35 whelen & 223. All great shooters. Have no opinions on the other rifles mentioned, havent owned any of them. This is a Ford vs Chevy debate. I like Fords. But cant blame a guy for driving a Chevy. I know I didnt add much to the thread, 

[john keyes]

This has got to be the most riden dead horse Ive ever seen . But I jump on. I like my 700s. 7mag, 35 whelen & 223. All great shooters. Have no opinions on the other rifles mentioned, havent owned any of them. This is a Ford vs Chevy debate. I like Fords. But cant blame a guy for driving a Chevy. I know I didnt add much to the thread, 

yeah no doubt.
I was thinking today in the midst of a ford vs chevy argument now somebody could say "well at least Ford isn't declaring bankruptcy"

as far as the topic...well I own two 700's, have a 788 on layaway. As for ruger I have one 77.
but, I also own: a vaquero, a .44 carbine, 10/22, and SP101
so thats 5 rugers to 2 1/2 remingtons

but I also own about eight or so marlins

conclusion: I didn't contribute much either.  I will say the remington triggers are pretty good.

[Swampman]

Coyote Hunter

Repeating myths will not make them facts.

It's pretty tough to build or buy a rifle that will out shoot a Remington 700 right out of the box.  Sometimes you get lucky and run across a Ruger or a Winchester that will shoot MOA.  They are rare.  1/2 MOA with factory ammo is common with out of the box Remingtons.  All the stuff about Remington problems is just old wives tales oft repeated by Remington haters.

There are no wildcats that will do anything that factory cartridges won't do.  In the old day wildcats had their place.  Now they are just a novelty.

[Coyote Hunter]

Coyote Hunter

Repeating myths will not make them facts.

It's pretty tough to build or buy a rifle that will out shoot a Remington 700 right out of the box.  Sometimes you get lucky and run across a Ruger or a Winchester that will shoot MOA.  They are rare.  1/2 MOA with factory ammo is common with out of the box Remingtons.  All the stuff about Remington problems is just old wives tales oft repeated by Remington haters.

There are no wildcats that will do anything that factory cartridges won't do.  In the old day wildcats had their place.  Now they are just a novelty.

Let’s be clear on a couple things.  First, I am not a “Remington hater”.  Nor are all the people that have reported problems with Remington M700’s.  Remington M700’s have their share of problems just like any manufacturer has with products produced in those quantities, especially when one of the driving design criteria was cost of manufacture.

Second, The two Remington M700 .30-06 rifles I’ve worked with in the last couple years were not exactly exemplary shooters.  OK, but nothing special and not as good as the Rugers and Savage rifles I’ve worked with.  You have a blind spot as big as a football field when it comes to being objective.

If you can show me a factory cartridge that will do what a 6.5mm-06AI will do in the action I have available, a standard length Interarms Mark X set up for cartridges with a .473” bolt face, I’d like to hear about it.  But there aren’t any.  Put or shut up, as they say.

[Swampman]

The .270 is just as good when loaded to the same pressures.  In fact it's just as good with current factory ammo.

[Coyote Hunter]

The .270 is just as good when loaded to the same pressures.  In fact it's just as good with current factory ammo.

Once again you run your mouth with no factual data, just opinion that turns out to be wrong.

It is not a matter of differences in pressure that gives the 6.5mm-06AI a distinct edge over the .270 Win but rather higher bullet Ballistic Coefficients and higher velocity made possible by the 6.5mm-06AI’s greater case capacity.

Let me give you a couple of examples.

The 6.5mm-06AI has case capacity virtually identical to the .264 Hawk – slightly more, in fact, because of the sharper shoulder angle and shorter neck.  Data for the .264 Hawk suggests muzzle velocities of 3090fps for a 140g bullet and 3330fps for a 120g bullet.  Nosler provides data for the 6.5mm-06 (non-AI) of 3151fps for a 130g bullet.  Interpolating between the .264 Hawk 120g and 6.5mm-06 Nosler 130g data suggests the 6.5mm-06AI should easily achieve 3200fps with a 130g bullet.  Let’s take those velocities and combine them with a 130g Swift Scirocco II (BC .571) and a 140g Berger Target BT (BC .618).  I zero all my centerfire rifles for MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range) for a target 6” in diameter, meaning the bullet rises or drops a maximum of 3” from Line Of Sight from the muzzle to the target.  Doing this for the 130g Scirocco and the 140g Berger Target BT provides the following:

6.5mm-06AI, 130g Swift Scirocco (BC .571) @ 3200fps
274 yards = zero
322 yards = MPBR
800 yards = -105.5”, 2007fps, 1163fpe
900 yards = -148.2”, 1880fps, 1020fpe
1000 yards = -201.5”, 1759fps, 893fpe

6.5mm-06AI, 140g Berger Target BT (BC .618) @ 3090fps
266 yards = zero
313 yards = MPBR
800 yards = -111.2”, 2002fps, 1246fpe
900 yards = -155.2”, 1884fps, 1104fpe
1000 yards = -209.8”, 1772fps, 976fpe.

Show me a factory load or even published handload data for the .270 Win that will do as well as the 6.5mm-06AI at 800 yards.  (I’ll give you a hint – Nosler’s 150g BT load for the  .270 Win starts out with more energy but is behind in all categories as early as 100 yards.  Nosler’s  130g and 140g AccuBonds start out behind at the muzzle and simply fall further behind as the range gets longer. )

Lip flapping, which you are very good at, proves nothing.  Show us some facts – show us the .270 Win loads that can match the 6.5mm-06AI.

[Swampman]

You nor the animal will ever be able to tell the difference.  In fact the .270 or the .30-06 will do exactly the same work & the .30-06 will probably do it better.

But back to the topic.  It's very tough to find a rifle that will shoot with an out of the box Remington 700.  If accuracy is the goal, then even a custom rifle should be built on a 700 action.  They are about as strong as it gets and the quality is excellent.

The Mauser extractor is going to make it less accurate and not as strong.

[Coyote Hunter]

You nor the animal will ever be able to tell the difference.  In fact the .270 or the .30-06 will do exactly the same work & the .30-06 will probably do it better.

First, who said anything about animals? My 6.5mm-06AI is being built primarily as a low recoil, long range target rifle with the intent to use it at ranges out to 1500 yards.   That said, the 6.5mm-06AI will undoubtedly see use for hunting antelope and varmints.  Whether it gets used for deer and elk remains to be seen, but if it does it will easily reach further than the .270 Win.
You said you would stick with the facts – I challenge you to show us some but specifying a .270 Win load that can keep up with the 6.5mm-0gAI loads I listed.

But back to the topic.  It's very tough to find a rifle that will shoot with an out of the box Remington 700.  If accuracy is the goal, then even a custom rifle should be built on a 700 action.  They are about as strong as it gets and the quality is excellent.

It is not hard at all to find a rifle that will outshoot a factory Remington M700 - people do it all the time.  Based on my experience with both, if I had to bet on a factory rifle’s out-of-box accuracy I would get a Savage rather than a Remington.  There are a lot of others who would do the same.  I have one Remington M700 that shoots great but it was built in 1975 – the ones I’ve worked with that were built since 2005 have not shot as well as the Savage and Ruger rifles I’ve worked with that were built in the same time frame. 

The Mauser extractor is going to make it less accurate and not as strong.

I have yet to see a large ring Mauser action blow up and in fact they are considered strong actions.  The extractor cut doesn’t seem to hurt them any.  As to the extractor itself, I’ve never seen a broken Mauser extractor, something I cannot say for the Remington.


Again you flap your lips but only opinions are coming out.  Again I challenge you to specify a .270 Win load that will keep up with the 6.5mm-06AI loads I listed.

But you won’t, and we all know why…

[Swampman]

Any .270 load is just as good as your wildcat, and will reach as far as you can hit.  The animal is dead and eaten.

The 6.5mm-06AI won't kick any less than the .270 or the .30-06, neither of them have any recoil to speak of.

It's tough to find an MOA out of the box rifle other than the Remington 700.

The extractor cut is a weak area, & hurts accuracy by pulling the cartridge to one side.

[Coyote Hunter]

Any .270 load is just as good as your wildcat, and will reach as far as you can hit.  The animal is dead and eaten.

More lip flapping with no specifics.  And its not just about hunting, it’s also about targets out to at least 1500 yards.

SHOW us a .270 Win load that will match these for the 6.5mm-06AI:

6.5mm-06AI, 130g Swift Scirocco (BC .571) @ 3200fps
274 yards = zero
322 yards = MPBR
800 yards = -105.5”, 2007fps, 1163fpe
900 yards = -148.2”, 1880fps, 1020fpe
1000 yards = -201.5”, 1759fps, 893fpe

6.5mm-06AI, 140g Berger Target BT (BC .618) @ 3090fps
266 yards = zero
313 yards = MPBR
800 yards = -111.2”, 2002fps, 1246fpe
900 yards = -155.2”, 1884fps, 1104fpe
1000 yards = -209.8”, 1772fps, 976fpe.

The 6.5mm-06AI won't kick any less than the .270 or the .30-06, neither of them have any recoil to speak of.

Wrong again – the 6.5mm-06AI will hit the ballistics listed above with only 18 foot-pounds recoil in an 8.3 pound rifle/scope.  But neither the .270 Win nor the .30-06 can keep up with the external ballistics (trajectory, velocity, energy).  if you want to compare inferior ballistics, go ahead - but it makes no sense as it becomes a race to zero fps at the muzzle and the 6.5mm-06AI can do that as well as any other cartridge.

Since the .270 Win can’t keep up, let’s use it as the basis and compare a reduced 6.5mm-06AI load that more or less matches the .270 Win ballistics.

I’ll use Nosler 6th as the source for .270 Win data as it generally has the fastest velocities of the various reloading books I use.  We will again assume an 8.3 pound rifle and scope combo and a 6” target for MPBR calculations:

.270 Win MAXIMUM loads:
130g AB, BC .435, 3158fps, 54.0g powder, 15.94 foot-pounds recoil
140g AB, BC .496, 3018fps, 53.0g powder, 17.22 foot-pounds recoil
150g BT, BC .496 ,2913fps, 61.5g powder, 20.12 foot-pounds recoil

.270 Win ballistics for above loads:
130g AB = 264yd Zero, 310yd MPBR; 800yds = -128.9”, 16673fps, 808fpe
140g AB = 256yd Zero, 301yd MPBR; 800yds = -132.9”, 1725fps, 925fpe
150g BT = 248yd Zero, 292yd MPBR; 800 yds = -146.0”, 1651fps, 908fpe

Comparable 6.5mm-06AI loads (reduced from maximum):
130g Scirocco II, BC .571, 2900fps, 52g powder, 14.74 foot-pounds recoil
140g Berger Target BT, 2800fps, 50g powder, 15.4 foot-pounds recoil

6.5mm-06AI ballistics for above reduced loads:
130g Scirocco II, 250yd Zero, 294yd MPBR; 800yds = -135.8”, 1782fps, 916fpe
140g Berger, 248 yd Zero, 282yd MPBR; 800yds = -136.29”, 1817fps, 1026fpe


While the ballistics are not identical, they are pretty close, and the .270 Win loads generate from 8% to 36% more recoil than the 130g 6.5mm Scirocco.  The .270 Win is topped out, however, while the 6.5mm-06AI can do considerably better.

If you don’t like the .270 Win loads I used for comparison, feel free to post data for the loads you prefer – I’m really curious what they could be...

It's tough to find an MOA out of the box rifle other than the Remington 700.

I WISH the last two new Remingtons I worked with would shoot MOA, but neither would.  Weatherby guarantees MOA with many of their rifles – why doesn’t Remington???

The extractor cut is a weak area, & hurts accuracy by pulling the cartridge to one side.

The problem is more theoretical than actual.  Here’s a photo of a 3-shot  group shot at 100 yards from a rifle with a Mauser-style extractor, although it happened to be one of my Rugers:



I’ve shot similar and only slightly larger groups with my Rugers in 7mm RM and .300 WM.  If the Mauser-style extractor is hurting accuracy, I really don’t care - the rifles can shoot better than I do.


Again, I challenge you to provide information on a .270 Win load that can keep up with the 6.5mm-06AI loads I’ve listed.  Failure to do so is simply an admission on your part that you can’t find any.  Shouldn’t bee too hard as you claim “Any .270 load is just as good”.  What’s the problem with giving JUST ONE specific example???

I won’t be holding my breath as all I expect to see is more lip flapping with nothing to back up your claims...

[Swampman]

The Hornady Light Magnum 140 Grain Boat Tail Spire Point or even the Remington 130 grain Core-Loct, or any .270 Winchester ammo you can pick up at Walmart is just as good.  Any .30-06 would be even better.  The animal is just as dead.  It taste the same.

The Mauser extractor is be an issue where best accuracy is concerned.  The Rugers are about the worst of the bunch.  Rarely you'll find one that will shoot MOA or better.

[leather5to1]

I bet the 700s would be better if the triggers weren't nine lbs.  For this reason alone I'd go with a savage out of the box over a remington.  You have to spend a lot at remington's custom shop to match savage out of the box accuracy and trigger weight.

[Swampman]

Remington triggers are about the best available.  The Savage isn't really in the same class as the Remington.  It's more like a Mossberg.

[Coyote Hunter]

The Hornady Light Magnum 140 Grain Boat Tail Spire Point or even the Remington 130 grain Core-Loct, or any .270 Winchester ammo you can pick up at Walmart is just as good.  Any .30-06 would be even better.  The animal is just as dead.  It taste the same.

First, if you keep ignoring what I’ve said about the rifle being used for targets out to 1500 yards, not just for hunting (and actually only rarely so), people are going to start thinking you have a comprehension problem.  Oops, probably too  late for you to do anything about that.

Well, let’s just test your theory about the Hornady ammo.  The .277” 140g Hornady BTSP has a BC of .486 and Hornady claims 3100fps for the load (Product # 8556).  That gives it the following ballistics when MPBR zeroed for a 6” diameter target:

.270 Win, Hornady 140g BTSP (BC .486) Light Magnum (# 8556) @ 3100fps:
262yards = Zero
308 yards = MPBR
800 yards = -125.4”, 1761fps, 963fpe
900 yards = -178.7”, 1626fps, 822fpe
1000 yards = -244.8”, 1500fps, 700fpe

Compare that to the 6.5mm-06AI:

6.5mm-06AI, 130g Swift Scirocco (BC .571) @ 3200fps
274 yards = zero
322 yards = MPBR
800 yards = -105.5”, 2007fps, 1163fpe
900 yards = -148.2”, 1880fps, 1020fpe
1000 yards = -201.5”, 1759fps, 893fpe

6.5mm-06AI, 140g Berger Target BT (BC .618) @ 3090fps
266 yards = zero
313 yards = MPBR
800 yards = -111.2”, 2002fps, 1246fpe
900 yards = -155.2”, 1884fps, 1104fpe
1000 yards = -209.8”, 1772fps, 976fpe

Compared to the 6.5mm-06AI and the 130g Scirocco, at 800 yards the .270 Win load from Hornady – the load YOU picked – doesn’t do so well.  The 6.5mm-06AI hits the 800 yard line with 20” (19%)  less drop, 246fps (14%) more velocity and 200fpe (21%) more energy.  The 140g 6.5mm-06AI load delivers 283fpe (29%) more energy.

Hornady 7th Edition lists only 6 .270 Win 140g loads that reach 3000fps.  The average powder charge for these loads is 59.1g.  IF we assume the Light Magnum loads can hit 3100fps with the same powder charge (unlikely, as Hornady compresses the Light Magnum powder charges under heavy pressure), the recoil in an 8.3 rifle/scope combo is 19.34 foot-pounds.  Compare that to 14.74 foot-pounds for the 130g 6.5mm-06AI load and 15.4 foot-pounds for the 140g 6.5mm load.

In fact, the 6.5mm-06AI will deliver more energy to 1000 yards with the 140g Berger than the .270 Win load you picked can deliver to the 800 yard line.  The ballistic differences only get greater as the range is increased to the 1500 yards I intend to use the 6.5mm-06AI at for targets.

Your claim that “any .270 Winchester ammo you can pick up at Walmart is just as good” as the 6.5mm-06AI is pure fantasy.

The Mauser extractor is be an issue where best accuracy is concerned.  The Rugers are about the worst of the bunch.  Rarely you'll find one that will shoot MOA or better.

All of my Rugers will shoot MOA or better with their preferred ammo - some much better, as demonstrated by the target I posted earlier.  Once again your lips are flapping but you offer no specifics, just platitudes.

Please try again on the .270 Win ammo that will keep up with the 6.5mm-06AI – your last choice was a bust.

[leather5to1]

Remington triggers are about the best available.  The Savage isn't really in the same class as the Remington.  It's more like a Mossberg.

I have a savage 12f that makes my fathers 40x look sad for almost a third of the price.

[john keyes]

I have a savage 12f that makes my fathers 40x look sad for almost a third of the price.

I believe that.  I have one of the last 99's made before they shut it down and it will do as good or better than either of my two Remington bolt guns, and at 200 yds to boot.  If a savage lever can shoot that good I can only imagine what one of their bolt guns will do.

[Coyote Hunter]

The Hornady Light Magnum 140 Grain Boat Tail Spire Point or even the Remington 130 grain Core-Loct, or any .270 Winchester ammo you can pick up at Walmart is just as good.  Any .30-06 would be even better.  …

To address your erroneous statement about the .30-06, which I have not done as yet, let’s try the Hornady 165g InterBond Light Magnum load.  The bullet has a BC of .447 and a claimed MV of 3015fps.  Since “Any .30-06 would be even better” in your words, this load should be fine and this one runs hotter than most.  Zeroing for MPBR for a 6” diameter target:

.30-06, Hornady 165g InterBond (BC .447) Light Magnum (# 85159) @ 3015fps:
254 yards – Zero
299 yards – MPBR
800 yards = -142.9”, 1609fps, 948fpe
900 yards = -203.6”, 1473fps, 795fpe
1000 yards = -281.5”, 1362fps, 669fpe


Compare that to the 6.5mm-06AI loads:

6.5mm-06AI, 130g Swift Scirocco (BC .571) @ 3200fps:
274 yards = Zero
322 yards = MPBR
800 yards = -105.5”, 2007fps, 1163fpe
900 yards = -148.2”, 1880fps, 1020fpe
1000 yards = -201.5”, 1759fps, 893fpe

6.5mm-06AI, 140g Berger Target BT (BC .618) @ 3090fps:
266 yards = Zero
313 yards = MPBR
800 yards = -111.2”, 2002fps, 1246fpe
900 yards = -155.2”, 1884fps, 1104fpe
1000 yards = -209.8”, 1772fps, 976fpe

By the way, the .30-06 load comes in at 24.0 foot-pounds recoil in an 8.3 pound rifle/scope combination, well above the 17-18 pounds recoil for the 6.5mm-06AI loads.


Here’s another point you like to ignore.  Given that I intend to use the rifle out to 1500 yards (and perhaps further on occasion) it is important for the sake of accuracy to maintain supersonic bullet speeds.  The .30-06 load above goes sub-sonic at 1200 yards, well short of the 1500 yards at which I intend to use the rifle.  By contrast, the 6.5mm-06AI load remains supersonic past the 1600 yard line.

In short, and given my application, your claim that “Any .30-06 would be even better” is very clearly wrong.

But heck – believe what you want and don’t let facts get in the way. 

[700xcr]

I bet the 700s would be better if the triggers weren't nine lbs.  For this reason alone I'd go with a savage out of the box over a remington.  You have to spend a lot at remington's custom shop to match savage out of the box accuracy and trigger weight.

All you need to do is adjust the trigger. Which is not hard to do.

[leather5to1]

I bet the 700s would be better if the triggers weren't nine lbs.  For this reason alone I'd go with a savage out of the box over a remington.  You have to spend a lot at remington's custom shop to match savage out of the box accuracy and trigger weight.

All you need to do is adjust the trigger. Which is not hard to do.

Been there done that.  My problem is that remington tells you not to do this.  If I buy a brand new gun and then have to take the stock off, scrape that glue off and adjust the trigger to shoot it and then have a problem with the new gun then what?  Remington will have a fit.  I believe they sell you a new trigger if you send the gun back for something else.  That is not how a new gun buying experience should go.  Don't get me wrong I have shot and hunted with good 700s, but everyone of those was professionally floated, bedded, and accurized.

[Augustis]

Remington triggers are about the best available.  The Savage isn't really in the same class as the Remington.  It's more like a Mossberg.

Swamp

For once I would say I have to agree with one of your statements... Savage has not had nearly a 60 year history of trigger malfunction failures... which produces inadvertent discharges opening the bolt, closing the bolt, jarring off or fire on safety releases. Remington finally made the change to a new "safer" design in December 2006. The change was long overdue, considering Remington started fielding complaints from their valued customers almost immediately after the release of the connector style fire control in March 1948.

With that I have not heard of any such complaints regarding Savage, or Mossberg...

Aug ><>

[john keyes]

one thing I have had problems with on my 700's is the magazine getting catywampus despite my efforts to keep the top of it level. It gets up or down on the ends and gets in a bind.  Its very simple, just a folded spring attached to the floorplate and whatever you call the part that the cartridges rest on.  It drives me bananas but I load and shoot mostly single shot, shooting and hunting.  I also noticed the other day my spring is rusting.  The guns have been well cared for, no I did not think to oil the magazine spring....

[700xcr]

I bet the 700s would be better if the triggers weren't nine lbs.  For this reason alone I'd go with a savage out of the box over a remington.  You have to spend a lot at remington's custom shop to match savage out of the box accuracy and trigger weight.

All you need to do is adjust the trigger. Which is not hard to do.

Been there done that.  My problem is that remington tells you not to do this.  If I buy a brand new gun and then have to take the stock off, scrape that glue off and adjust the trigger to shoot it and then have a problem with the new gun then what?  Remington will have a fit.  I believe they sell you a new trigger if you send the gun back for something else.  That is not how a new gun buying experience should go.  Don't get me wrong I have shot and hunted with good 700s, but everyone of those was professionally floated, bedded, and accurized.

Remington's 2009 triggers are externally adjustable now. So they should not say a thing about warranty issues.

[Harry Snippe]

Remington triggers are about the best available.  The Savage isn't really in the same class as the Remington.  It's more like a Mossberg.

Swampman , Guess you have seen a lot of rifles and used them , (hense your  the expert )

Think your time could be better served , than just running off at the mouth , for that is all your going here .

You do not have to defend Remington nor does any one that shoots some thing different than you do .
You might find some thing that might shoot just as good or better than your mouth .

Remington  has a good product , but there are some that have a problem which mostly can be corrected

I have had Remington rifles with triggers done that shot very well as well as ruger and winchesters that had Trigger work done  .
The only rifle out of the box that shot well was a Tikka and a Savage  with no work done to the trigger .

We have Remington . Winchester , Tikka, Savage, Marlin and Ruger products in our safe , and proud to shoot them .
Then again we also Drive a Chev and a Ford .

Dog gone it Man go to bed

[Swampman]

I've never seen a Remington with a bad trigger.  The newest Remington triggers are as good as it gets.  My Remington 700s usually shoot about 1/2 MOA with Remington factory ammo right out of the box.  Other brands are fine for big game hunting where accuracy isn't much of an issue.

[scootrd]

Well I am certainly not as prolific a gun buyer as most here . Heck I am probably the least prolific commenting on this thread ,
But I do have an opinion on Remington quality.
I have only owned 4 Remingtons in my lifetime. I have always found their quality to be top notch.
Of course my 2 old marlins , Winchester model 12 shotgun , Mossberg , and other various rifles
and shot guns have performed well over the years also. But I gotta tell ya from my perspective
The Remingtons have certainly held up to their reputation on fit finish and quality (for what I can afford) far and above any other rifles I have owned.

So much so that my next purchase (for myself) after I get DW squared away with a CZ or browning 223.. is I have my eyes
set on a CDL SF.. and if the quality is anywhere near as good as my previous Remington purchases I know I wont be disappointed. 

[Skunk]

I've never seen a Remington with a bad trigger. The newest Remington triggers are as good as it gets.

Swamper, you can't be serious about never having seen a Remington with a bad trigger. Do you mean after the trigger has been worked on a bit? I'll agree that the old Rem triggers can be adjusted to near perfection (albeit, I'm not sure they are entirely safe that way, I know professional gunsmith Stan Ware will not adjust an old model Rem trigger below 2.5 pounds because of safety reasons), but right out of the box? When leather5to1 above said they might be better if they didn't have a nine pound pull, he wasn't kidding. I've shot a few Rems that had such heavy trigger pulls out of the box that I thought the safeties were on when trying to shoot them.

I'm still undecided about the new X-Mark Pro trigger. It is indeed crisp, and has a minimum of over travel, but the pull weight is still a mess. I've been trying to adjust it down on my .223, but after a few shots at around 2.5 pounds pull, the damn thing gets inconsistent and lets go at 5 pounds, then 4 pounds, then 2.5 pounds again, then maybe 6 pounds (not necessarily in that order), who knows what the next shot will bring? The only weight where it seems to stay consistent is when it is adjusted to around 5 pounds, and that's just too heavy for my liking.

[Swampman]

I've owned a lot of 700s & played with a lot more.  I've never seen one with any creep.  The worst I've ever seen was probably about 5 pounds.  They are easy to adjust.

I love the X-Mark Pro trigger.

[Coyote Hunter]

Swampy -

Neither of the two Remington .30-06's I've worked with in the last couple years would group under 1-1/4" with Remington factory ammo, or any other brand of factory ammo I tried including Winchester, Federal and Hornady.  It took floating the barrel and handloads to bring mine in under MOA.  I also tuned the trigger to reduce pull weight.

I'm still waiting for a .270 win or .30-06 load that will beat a 6.5mm-06AI for long range work.

[Swampman]

Any of the .270 or .30-06 loads will work just as well.  Mythology aside there are no useful wildcats these days.

Few rifles shoot well free floated.  I see no reason to do it.