Author Topic: water buffalo & the 45/70  (Read 14597 times)

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Offline Tonk

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2009, 03:44:12 PM »
Yahooo for the REDNECKS & the 45/70 Lever Gun! ;D ;D ;D

Offline Hunter Fishman

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2009, 07:13:45 PM »
I shot some honadays out of my friends H&R 45-70 handi rifle right through 1/4 inch steel plate at 50 yards.
I trust the 45-70 for dangerous game, just not the handi single shot...LOL

Which brings up a question.
What was the 45-70 originaly designed for?

Online Graybeard

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2009, 01:47:06 AM »
Shooting injuns. That's why it was originally called the .45-70 Government. It was what our soliders used during the wars with the indians.


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Offline Hunter Fishman

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2009, 07:13:07 AM »
Shooting injuns. That's why it was originally called the .45-70 Government. It was what our soliders used during the wars with the indians.

Interesting.
I now feel comfortable laughing at the guy at bass pro who said it was designed for hunting rhino & elephant.
HA HA HA!
Those guys amaze me some times.
He must of thought the bigger the round, the bigger the game.

When My friend went to buy it the guy replied, you must not like your shoulder!
Then my friend replied, eehhh I have two.

I thought it would have had more kick but if I remember right, it didnt kick as hard as the remington 870 express mag shooting 3" shells.

Were injuns considered dangerous game back then? LOL ;D

Online Graybeard

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2009, 12:38:18 PM »
Dunno if they were considered game or not but for dang sure they were considered dangerous. The old warhorse is well over 100 years old. In those long ago days when black powder was the ONLY powder to use armies used big bore rounds pushing big fat and heavy bullets real slow. We chose the .45-70 and stuck with it for many years in the old Springfield Trap Door rifle.

In those days it pushed 400 grain bullets to around 1300 fps or a bit faster and 500 grains somewhat slower. So no it was hardly designed for hunting rhino or elephant.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline Hunter Fishman

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2009, 02:45:31 PM »
I'm still WAY in the dark on gun knowledge but am in the prosses of learning.
Is the 45-70 even enough to penetrate thick skined, dense boned african game? those pics dont lie.
I just figured no skin or bone could possibly be as strong as 1/4 inch steel plate.
Now that I think of it, It seems like it has too much mass & like bill said its a slow round.
If I hunt dangerous game I want to be as far away as possible.
I'm starting to have my doubts about the 45-70 now... fun gun to shoot though.
Feel free to corect me if I'm wrong, I'm still a newbie in this department.

Online Graybeard

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2009, 05:52:52 PM »
Actually quarter inch thick mild plate steel is a piss poor test of penetration. Any .223 bullet will zip right thru and so might a .22 Hornet. Do you consider them dangerous game rounds?


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline Hunter Fishman

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2009, 05:58:11 PM »
no, but aren't they allot smaller,faster rounds? I'm still learning here, bare with me.
I figure they would have more kenetic energy & would more easily pass through being smaller & more concentrated pressure in a much smaller area.

Offline Hunter Fishman

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2009, 06:01:45 PM »
uuuhh O. I think I replied to a thread I probably shouldnt have... :-[

Offline Squib

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2009, 07:41:29 PM »
I'll try to explain the penetration... I'm a fishbowl thinker so I drift.. sorry!


steel: it's got some flexion to it, although there are MANY types of steel, you're probably going to be shooting low-grade and not thoroughly heat-treated so it's just purified iron.  metal is tough but not immeasurably so, it has inconsistent grain and flexion (anomalies that will allow it to separate if stressed-like wood splitting) and if pushed much past what is simply repelled- the force will skip the flexion and deformation altogether and just break right through.  metal has flexion to it but can have a grain structure congruent with casting, forging, etcetera. and a flat plate will have a grain going parallel with the surface/flat.  a plate is gonna have a flat profile which means most of the mass is just surface area (it doesn't matter how big the plate is, it's just a quarter inch thick- the bullet is probably longer than that).  the pointy bullets have sectional density behind a sharp/spitzer contact point to amplify all force on that point and force it through... and as the projectile tapers it will push the hole out to let in more bullet.  lots of velocity behind a little mass will "read" high kinetic energy but mass controls inertia and more mass is harder to stop... so a big bullet will still penetrate on through at a low velocity better than a little one (the little one can have more energy but upon striking it won't carry on through but dump the energy as the projectile is "caught")


let's think extremes- 12ga vs 22-250.  the 12ga has much more drag due to an aerodynamic nightmare of a shape, and it is bigger.  the weight pulls it down faster but that's also what allows it to smash on through tissue.  also that big projectile with more drag has that same problem with tissue, it catches matter (flesh not air after entering an animal for example) and will "catch" the tissue (or vice-versa, actually both) and the energy is dumped even though the projectile had great inertia.  the drag ruins the external ballistic "ray" but also makes it so lethal by brute force.  the 22-250 has insane velocity but little mass, so while it reads "hot" it will not penetrate heavy/dense material very well.  it'll dump all that energy really quick when it's "caught" though, so it's great for small game (or people) but not for a huge animal because that flesh will decelerate the bullet (dumping the energy upon entry but stopping the penetration and actual damage to deeper internal organs).  the huge energy dump is great for rediculous damage to a a shallow target but not for a deeper one.  penetration allows a bullet to go deep and make it to the internals in an animal.  while the damage isn't as dramatic at any one point- it is going to continue all the way through the animal assuming that the round had enough "uumph" to get the job done.  also, a hole in the chest cavity will depressureize the lungs, cause edema, dry out the membranes surrounding the lungs and cause pulmonary failure fairly quickly.  heart shots are obviously fatal but not immediately by virtue of destroying the heart (the animal still has some energy and time to run off).  "shock value" is not a definiteive term but for it to be effective it's got to hit spine, neck or brain to immediately sever all mobility to allow a "stopping" shot to work.  the only thing that will instantly disable is nerve damage, instant death is only capable with a brain shot.  while nerves may incidentally be targeted/injured with shrapnel, hydrostatic shock, wound temporary cavitation and such, only the nerve damage actually causes the animal to drop right there.

you have to be a nut and read this stuff lots to grasp it all at once.  my advice is to read up on as much of the fbi shooting data as you can stand.  also the cadaver and live animal tests that led the army to adopt the 1911.... thompson lagarde maybe?

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2009, 02:48:12 AM »
uuuhh O. I think I replied to a thread I probably shouldnt have... :-[

No no!   :o  It's a good thing that you posted!   ;D  Listen to what's said, ask questions to learn, and challange peoples' conceptions if it's a topic you have some expertise in or if what they say just doesn't sound reasonable to you!  That's called "discussion."    ;)

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Offline rex6666

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2009, 06:35:26 AM »
The 45/70 worked wonders on the Indians horses also, passing right through
and if an Indian was on the tother side it killt him too. That was one of the
plans to put the Indians on foot, lots of plains Indians didn't like to walk.
Rex
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Offline JJHACK

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2009, 03:58:59 AM »

Got this in an Email today





This guy and a buddy were sighting their rifles in. One of the guns was leaned up against the 4 wheeler he was standing on. The gun started to fall and I'm not sure if his buddy grabbed it, or something on the bike caught the trigger. Either way, he caught a .45-70 round right under the collar bone. I think it goes with out being said, how lucky he is to still be here.

The big hole around his shoulder blade is where the bullet entered and it traveled under his skin and exited right there on his neck, above his spinal cord! Just goes to show that he truly is LUCKY! The bullet just burned the edges of the skin of the wound that you see in the picture. He's getting better & better every day, last night he was even doing push ups!! He's finally able to use his arm again! Somehow it didn't hit anything major and basically ended up being a really bad flesh wound! It is truly a miracle that he is alive and not paralyzed!
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Offline Tonk

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2009, 05:12:47 PM »
I bet that hurt! ;D  ;D   ;D

Offline Squib

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2009, 08:58:36 PM »
good thing it wasn't a frangible round.  he sounds like a tough guy- hope he doesn't end up gunshy after this.  let him know to put vitamin E lotion on the scars to fade them out quick.

Offline JJHACK

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2009, 03:32:36 AM »
Dude, it's gonna take more then lotion to fade those scars are you serious?
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Offline JJHACK

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2009, 04:39:42 AM »
Can you imagine the difference in effect from a bullet at over 2000fps on this fella? Lets say a 375HH, 458 win mag, 416 rem?

Heck even a 300 mag would have exploded this fella and ruptured the flesh and the spine. Thank goodness it was a low velocity solid projectile!
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Offline Skunk

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2009, 06:49:59 AM »
Wow!! The good Lord was truly watching over the man in the picture.
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline rex6666

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2009, 11:42:47 AM »
man! is he lucky or what it will take long time to get over that.
Rex
GOD GUNS and GUTS MADE AMERICA GREAT

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Offline Tonk

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2009, 06:08:35 PM »
I most certainly have to agree with our moderator on this issue, a high velocity caliber would have no doubt cut the main half in two and he would be laying on a cold stainless steel table. Now speaking of healing up scars, I got a scratch by a female of mine who was in a bit of a fight with another at the time. I received a nice 2.5 inch slash to the backside of my hand and later it caused a raised scar.

My wife brought home some anti scarying medication that I put on the scar 4 times a day for over 3 months. Well, it was not worth the time and effort let me tell you. This fellow has got some very very serious healing to take place and vitamin E won't beging to touch his problems. He is going to need heavy doses's of Protein for the next 4 month and anti-biotics too.

Offline mrgd

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2009, 05:56:18 PM »
I don't know much about dangerous game except what I see on t.v., so I guess that makes me an expert.  Anyway, I have one experience w/ water buffalo.  I was quail hunting on the ranch of a rich crazy man.  He had no clue about game or ranching and just bought a bunch of different things an stuck them in different pastures.  They were pretty much left feral.  He neglected to tell us about the herd of 8 water buffs that he had in one section.  My friends and I were following our dogs when what looked like a bunch of horned cattle started running our way.  As they got closer and faster we reakized these weren't jsut hungry cows.  We shot in the air a few times.  They sped up.  We bolted for the nearest tress which certainly weren't near enough.  There was a slanted tree that we ran up just in the nick of time.  So three of us are up this tree and they are snorting and apwing at the bottom and occasionally charging at our dogs.  Eventually they all took to chasing the dogs.  I don't have any experience with cape buffs, butt I've been around cattle all my life.  These thing were out for blood. Don't know why, I just know they were mean.  Maybe they're noÞ all that way.

Offline mrgd

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2009, 05:58:16 PM »
One more thing, I don't know if the 45-70 is enough but I sure would have rather had on than my 28 gauge with 3/4 ounce of #8s.

Offline halfbreed

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2010, 03:20:50 PM »
My friend has a 45-70 rolling block repro, 30"bbl. He shot a few Winchester rounds through it, and many primers had backed out. Way too much pressure for the rb action.
 At our gun club, every month they have a buffalo shoot, 1/2 sized steel sillhouet, black powder only, past 100 yards you can actually watch the bullet in flight towards the target.
 These are very near/ exactly the same loads the buffalo hunters used.
Unfortunatly, I believe all too well, the Indians were considered game by many of the Army's officers.
 Things became boring in camp, lets go kill a bunch of injuns!
 John

Offline Swampman

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2010, 03:45:10 PM »
I really like the Remington 405 grain factory load or an equivalent handload.  Everything else is not that fun to shoot.  I hate the 300 grain loadings and I only use them for sighting in rifles because I got them really cheap.  When I get them shot up they'll get a Remington 405 grain jacketed bullet or a .459 Hollow Based 405 grain Lee cast bullet.  Varget is the powder of choice.
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Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2010, 08:44:22 PM »
I have heard the bullet he was shot with was the Hornady Leverevolution

Offline BIGDAVE54

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2010, 10:04:39 PM »
 Let's see...I had a few courses in Industrial Materials and Metallurgy. I think of two terms when it comes to steel...The first is elastic deformaion...the second is plastic deformation....If steel is pulled or pressed to a point where it stretches and then pops back to its original shape,it has suffered elastic deformation..If it is stretched and does not return to it's original shape it has suffered plastic deformation. I believe the simpler the metals are the simpler their grain structures...They either take one of these forms...body center cubic,face center cubic,close pack hexagonal, or close pack tetragonal. The grain structures can be manipulated by tempering strategies,the addition of carbon through case hardening or the addition of trace metals or minerals during the original smelt. I usually heat cheap knives and screwdrivers to between red and white hot and quickly stick them into a small pile of sugar to harden them. I usually repeat this process a few times...That is the case hardening part. If you don't have the right size die to chase the threads on an onerous bolt ..You can take a nut the correct size, cut a few grooves across the inner threads with a Dremel tool, and use the sugar thing to harden the nut until you have a "shade tree die"...When it comes to shooting a piece of thin steel plate with a 45-70 round...that is plastic deformation in a big way...sorta like slamming an ant in the head with a sledge hammer.

Offline jwp475

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2010, 05:53:10 AM »


   Where are all of the "nay syers" now

Offline RMulhern

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2010, 09:19:35 AM »
If you've never shot BP....then you just don't know!!

Offline hillbill

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2010, 04:18:14 PM »
yu know this post really made me realize how proud i am of yu guys that were in the service and what yu went thru.shoot yur damm buffs with whatever yu want!

Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: water buffalo & the 45/70
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2010, 09:33:35 AM »