Some questions

[jk3006]

Thanks to Lloyd, I've realized that I can start casting without much money invested.  So, I've spent some time trying to understand the whole process.  There are some good videos on Youtube also.  But I do have a few questions still.

1.  I'm wondering what the simplest and most effective way to lube and size bullets would be?  I'm assuming that all bullets need to be sized to shoot accurately.  I see that Lee makes a cheap lube and sizer for under $15.  Is there a more effective and easy way to lube than what the Lee kit suggets?  Also, if I order a mold from Veral (I want to shoot .452 bullets), what size are the bullets when they drop out of the mold if they're later gonna be sized to .452? 

2.  I'll probably shoot gas-checked bullets.  Where is the cheapest, yet still effective gas checks that I can buy?  I see that they cost 3.5 cents per check for Hornady checks at Midway.  It would sure by nice if they were half that price. 

3.  For hunting loads at 1200-1300 fps, will ww's and linotype mixed at a ratio of 1:2 or 1:3 make a hard enough alloy to not mushroom on contact?  I haven't checked for a local supply of ww's or linotype, but I can see the linotype is quite expensive, at least the stuff on ebay. 

4.  Flux.  Is there a cheap or free alternative that I can find around the house to use as flux, or do I need to buy it commercially?


If I can't make good bullets for a cost of 10 cents/bullet or less with a reasonable effort, than I'm not sure that this is what I really want to do.  However, from reading other people's posts, I see this shouldn't be a problem.   

[Lloyd Smale]

you dont allways have to size bullets as a matter of fact some guns actually prefer unsized bullets. THe lee sizers work well for sizing but you also have to lube your bullets and the lee sizer doesnt do that like a real lubesizer will. With the lee sizers you are stuck with tumble lubing and although alot of people swear by it it has never really impressed me and the only time i do it anymore is with one of my 38 molds that shoots a certain bullet better unsized. Its easy and quick with the lee system but i prefer a conventionaly lubed and sized bullet. Watch ebay and you can pick up a lyman lubesizer for about 60 bucks used. Keep in mind though that you need to buy seperat sizer dies for each size you want to size your bullets to. Me i prefer the star sizer but its a much more expensive route and really not needed for a beginner. If your using gas checks sizing is mandatory as thats what crimps on the gas check. Any of the lubesizers or lee dies will do this.
    My favorite alloys for magnum pistol bullets are #2 and 5050 ww/lyno. #2 can be made in many ways but a mix of 2/3s ww and 1/3 lyno will get you close. In all reality straight ww would probably take care of any handgun chore under 1300 fps if you have a good gun.

    For fluxing about anything will work. Old wax candles will do it as will anything made of wax. I dont like to flux alot once im casting as ive found that over fluxing lead cause more problems then not fluxing at all. When im smelting lead i use a seperate pot and never smelt in one of my casting pots. When smelting i flux the wws once when the clips are still in it to insure that im not throwing away and tin or antimony. I then scoup out the clips and will flux again. then i scape the pot real well and flux again for the last time. Then i pour my ingots. Most of the time if you are carefull about removing all the junk while smelting there isnt much need for fluxing in your casting pot. What i do is flux once at the start of ever casting session and then just cast. Theres no need for futher fluxing. If you are fluxing in a seperate pot even lube oil works real well as a flux but i wouldnt flux my casting pot with it. Avoid some of the comercial plumbers fluxs used for soldering. they usually contain zinc and zinc is something you want to avoid at all costs.

    Below is the contact info for Larry Blackman. He is a dentist that makes gas checks on the side. His gas checks are superior to any of the comercially sold ones and are cheaper to boot. Dont expect them to be half price but you will probably save 5-10 bucks on a 1000.





 Gator gas checks at Bullet Swaging Supply, Inc.
                                    303 McMillan Road
                                   West Monroe, LA 71291
                                   318 387-7257

[Badnews Bob]

I haven't had the funds yet to purchase a Lubrisizer, as much as I'd like one, I use the Lee sizers and alox tumble lube, It works very well and I get excellent grouping with it.  There will be a lubrisizer on my futrue loading bench but for now Lee stuff works very well.

[bilmac]

I use tumble lube on some bullets that I shoot by the buketful. That is about the quickest and easiest way to make bullets in quantity. They tend to be messy because the lube that is left on the bullet noses picks up crud, and I think that after long storeage the loads may deteriorate from the lube on the base.

They shoot very good in my blackhawks though.

[jk3006]

When fluxing, how much flux are we talking about each time it is added to the pot per whatever amount of lead is in the pot?

Also, I've been shooting some 325 grain pb wfn's from MBW, and they're being pushed fairly hard by 110 (.5 grain shy of what John Linebaugh recommends on his heavy load).  My cylinders are Cylindersmitherized at .4525 and the bore is firelapped.  So, I think the fit is good.  I get 1200 fps out of that load from a 4 5/8 barrel.  I remember reading that gas checks are best in that heavier loading and that velocity should increase as well.  I'm mentioning all this cause I'm debating the possibility of going with a pb mold for a bullet of that configuration, or something close to it. 
I may not need the gas checks, but I figure I might as well for insurance.  Sounds like a pb design might eliminate some of the work & expense. Any thoughts?

[Graybeard]

1. Veral can make your mould drop bullets the size you want if you tell him the alloy you'll be using. I don't much care for trhe idea of the Lee sizer but it does work so users of it say. I prefer the RCBS unit. You can pan lube bullets and thereby get good lube on them same as with a lube-sizer. It's messy but do able and is what many pehaps most BPCR shooters do.

2. Why? If you're not gonna push them any faster than that and you have a good fit of bullet to barrel and cylinder throats GCs aren't really necessary just get a good plain base mould and save the money. No one loves GC bullets more than me most likely but for handguns they really are NOT required. If you wanna do this on the cheap avoid GC moulds.

3. Wheel weight alloy, linotype or any mixture of the two will be fine don't sweat it just cast and shoot them and worry not about the bullets they will be fine.

4. Candle wax, parafin sold in grocery stores in the canning section, bee's wax or even sawdust can do the job just fine. Don't use sawdust from PT wood however. Use flux sparingly and it lasts forever and doesn't really add enough to the total cost to consider.

How much it costs to make the bullets mostly depends on your cost in the metal you use. If you have to buy it costs rise proportionally to the price. If you're lucky enough to get it free as I have most of mine cost per bullet is really the cost of the electricity to melt the lead and your lube and flux cost. Leave off the GCs and they can be really cheap.

[bilmac]

The standard recommendation for flux is the size of a pea. I use bullet lube, smell isn't too bad.

I wouldn't recommend tumble lube for a high power application as you are doing, you know you are starting in doing the hard technical end of things. You will probably want gas checks and may have to be picky about the lead alloy you use too.

The real benefits of cast bullets are realized in being able to shoot gobs and gobs of really cheap ammo. I calculated many years ago that I could shoot cast bullet ammo cheaper than 22lr. May not be true anymore but it will be close.

[jk3006]

Okay, thanks for your responses.  I'll now contemplate my next step.

[Lloyd Smale]

i tend to have better luck working up accuarate loads with gas checks but that isnt wrote in stone. If your gun is not leading with the plain based bullets at that level other then accuarcy they wont do anyting for you. There is no differnce in velocity between the two. When i flux i use enough to put a thin layer over the entire surface of the pot. Then stir it in and while you are stiring scrape the bottome and sides of your pot to loosen any gunk that has built up. I will never smelt in a pot  I use for casting. Smelting is just to dirty and you will have to work to hard to get it cleaned before casting.

[Lloyd Smale]

i tend to have better luck working up accuarate loads with gas checks but that isnt wrote in stone. If your gun is not leading with the plain based bullets at that level other then accuarcy they wont do anyting for you. There is no differnce in velocity between the two. When i flux i use enough to put a thin layer over the entire surface of the pot. Then stir it in and while you are stiring scrape the bottome and sides of your pot to loosen any gunk that has built up. I will never smelt in a pot  I use for casting. Smelting is just to dirty and you will have to work to hard to get it cleaned before casting.

Greybeard made some good points too but before id lay down a 120 bucks for a mold so i could tumble lube it i think id use that money and buy a lubesizer and then save for one. That brings another thing to the table. IVe seen beginning casters stuggle and alot of times it due the the fact they use cheap molds. The differnce in casting with a lee mold and a lbt mold is night and day. Same with about all your casting equiptment. A good pot is another thing that makes casting easier. Even the sizer you buy can make your life alot more pleasant. A lyman sizer will take care of sizing for about any caster but a star will do the same in half the time.

[blhof]

Get Veral's book; I've been casting for over 20 years and after reading his book, I learned all the things I was doing wrong, but still getting good results, now I get match grade results.  Veral also has plenty of money saving hints, such as hand lubing with his soft lube and pan lubing, using the Lee cookie cutter kit and almost any good lube.  I have found his lubes to be superior to any of the others and I've tried several in 20+ years.

[jk3006]

I appreciate all the responses.

Keep in mind that I don't shoot a lot like some of you.  Chances are I'll only have the time and opportunity to get out once a week, and sometimes once every two weeks, to shoot 50-100 rounds thru my big bore.  The rest of my practice is done with the singe six, which I shoot quite a bit more. 

With round counts this low, I don't think I'll mind using a cheap Lee sizer/lubricator as long as it still does a good job and I can keep things as neat and tidy as they need to be to make good ammo.  I can always upgrade later. 

As to the mold, I really have my sights set on one of Veral's.  It's just something I want to do if money allows. 

As to the current load that I shoot and what it does to my .45 barrel, I do see some leading past the forcing cone a bit, but I don't think it's excessive.  I'd have to imagine that it's normal for some lead to be deposited when shooting cast bullets.  Correct me if I'm wrong. 

One more things about sizers.  Is the Lyman 450 what I'm generally looking for in a higher quality sizer?

   

[Graybeard]

Not in my opinion. I gave mine away as it kept breaking and Lyman refused to cover it under warranty and made me buy parts for it. I use an RCBS and will never again own a Lyman.

[bilmac]

If you are not going to shoot a lot, and you want high performance loads, are you sure you want to cast? I say again cast bullets shine when you want to shoot bullets by the bucketful. You want to start by doing the hard stuff first.

[jk3006]

On my budget, YES!

The prices have gone up to the point where it's a quarter piece to send a bullet down range.  That's not including the primer and powder.  If I can cut that expense by a third or more, then I can afford to shoot 50-100 rounds per week.  That may seem ridiculous to some people, but that's where I'm at. 

If you are not going to shoot a lot, and you want high performance loads, are you sure you want to cast?

[454PB]

I agree with all the above. I'm a Lee fan, and own a lot of their moulds. I also own a lot of Lyman, RCBS, NEI, and H&G moulds. However, money invested in a high end mould like LBT is well spent. 10 years from now, it will be worth more than you paid for it, and you will have thousands of boolits to boot!

Owning a Star sizer is great, but not if you're only casting a 1000 boolits per year. Their strong suit is the speed of use. The Lyman, RCBS, or even the Lee system will work fine for that small amount.

[flintman]

 How about letting us know where you are onwhat you HAVE to begin casting?
 For example,do you have lead?Soft,wheelweights,linotype,any?
 Do you have a Coleman stove you can dedicate to just lead use/
 Do yopu hve an old cast iron pot you can dedicate to lead ONLY?
 How about a lead ladle?
 Do you have any moulds?

[jk3006]

My decision to take up casting only hit me a couple of weeks ago.  I have a stove, but that's about it.  The pots and ladles are cheap, as I'm going to find some at the second hand store.  I'll be getting a mold from Veral when I have money for it.  I don't have any lead, but I'm going to start looking for WW's.  I'll probably get the cheap Lee lube/sizer.  Right now my .45 Colt is the only gun I'll be casting for, but that will probably change with time. 

How about letting us know where you are onwhat you HAVE to begin casting?
 For example,do you have lead?Soft,wheelweights,linotype,any?
 Do you have a Coleman stove you can dedicate to just lead use/
 Do yopu hve an old cast iron pot you can dedicate to lead ONLY?
 How about a lead ladle?
 Do you have any moulds?

[jk3006]

Inquiring minds would still like to know, however, at what bhn and at 1100-1200 fps does a bullet really deform when hitting shoulder bone.  I understand that hardcast bullets are not supposed to deform (although I'm sure they do a little) to maximize & straighten penetration.  Will straight air-cooled ww's hitting bone (even heavy bone) flatten/deform the nose quite a bit, or will the deformation be so little that it's not worth mentioning?

I've also been reading that heat-treating (oven) can comfortably raise the bhn, but does the whole bullet harden or just the outward/exterior  part.  If only the exterior of the bullet gets hardened, then I would think that would only be beneficial under high chamber pressure situations or not for actual performance on heavy bone.

The reason I'm asking this is because I'd prefer to cast with straight air-cooled ww's for 11-12 bhn, and be done with it.  But the bullets I've been buying are in the 20-22 bhn range.  So, I'm looking for some direction, taking into account that these will be used for hunting and I want the bullet to do what it's supposed to do.

3. Wheel weight alloy, linotype or any mixture of the two will be fine don't sweat it just cast and shoot them and worry not about the bullets they will be fine.

[jk3006]

I just got done reading thru some old posts by Veral, and he states that hard bullets in the 18-22 bhn range (properly sized) will work the best for accuracy.  So, I guess that's the route I need to go.  I can either heat-treat the ww's, or make sure that I have linotype to add.

I'm still curious as to how hard a bullet needs to be, when impacting bone at 1100-1200 fps, to hold its shape?

[Sweetwater]

Lots of stuff here to chew on.
I started casting back when I had to choose between groceries for the kids or gas for the truck. I walked alot back then.
Lead source: A friend of mine had a station where they load truck trailers onto train cars. When his tire guy changed the tires on the trailers as they wore out, all the wheelweights got thrown in a 5 gal pail. One day we were talking over a cup of coffee and he asked if I could use some lead. I said sure, and he gave me a pail full of weights. That was almost 20 years ago and I've picked up another half a pail. It's all turned into ingots and there is probably 50lbs of ingots still left from it all. I don't shoot as much as I used to, nor do I drive them as fast as I used to. Straight wheelweights will drop antelope and deer like nobodys business. I got in the habit of water-dropping them and that tends to just surface harden the bullet. I get no leading and good performance. I did a poor shot on a cow elk that hit her in the hip. Broke the joint and took a chunk of bone clear out through the other side. I could put my fist in the exit hole. Not sure if the bullet nose deformed or not, it was never retrieved. That put her down and a shot to the base of the skull put her out. The skull was shattered. 182gr cast from a lyman mold from a 32WSpcl.

I shot a lot of these unsized and pan lubed at a time I was living in a camper and out of work. I used a sardine can to hold the lube, melted it on the Coleman stove, set the bullets into it and let it cool. I cut the head off a case and used it like a cookie cutter and pushed the bullets straight through. Low production, but I did have a lot of time. And they did shoot. Kept me in meat for the winter and beyond.

At today's prices for powder in the $20/lb bracket, every 4 grains in your load is about a penny. Primers are 2-3 cents a piece. I'd look for some milsurp powder like wc820 for what you are doing and it's way cheaper than commercial powder. What I have was $8/lb and I wish I'd bought a couple cases!

Just more food for thought in your quest for economizing. Most of us have been there or are still there! Oh, and I use an old Lyman 450 Lubrisizer because the price was right when I got it and it's never made the priority list to be replaced. Always something else I'd rather spend my money on..or needed to.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Lloyd Smale]

I prefer the star sizer hands down over any other but they cost twice as much.

I appreciate all the responses.

Keep in mind that I don't shoot a lot like some of you.  Chances are I'll only have the time and opportunity to get out once a week, and sometimes once every two weeks, to shoot 50-100 rounds thru my big bore.  The rest of my practice is done with the singe six, which I shoot quite a bit more. 

With round counts this low, I don't think I'll mind using a cheap Lee sizer/lubricator as long as it still does a good job and I can keep things as neat and tidy as they need to be to make good ammo.  I can always upgrade later. 

As to the mold, I really have my sights set on one of Veral's.  It's just something I want to do if money allows. 

As to the current load that I shoot and what it does to my .45 barrel, I do see some leading past the forcing cone a bit, but I don't think it's excessive.  I'd have to imagine that it's normal for some lead to be deposited when shooting cast bullets.  Correct me if I'm wrong. 

One more things about sizers.  Is the Lyman 450 what I'm generally looking for in a higher quality sizer?

   

[Lloyd Smale]

it depends on how heavy a bone you want to break. It isnt so much that you dont want it to deform as it is that you want to keep it to a minimum. Ive killed buffalo with handgun bullets cast out of ww and a little tin. Did the bullet deform? I dont have a clue as it went out the other side and into the dirt. Obviously it was hard enough. Keep in mind that a ton of bufflalo were killed with falling block rifles shooting a bullet cast out of pure lead at about the same velocity your looking for in a handgun. Bottom line is I like bullets cast out of an alloy like #2 (@14bhn) to 5050 ww/lyno (@17 BHN)  Those hardeness levels are plenty hard for ANY animal you are going to kill with a handgun in the US. even straight ww is good enough for 99 percent of the hunting you will do but i like a little more tin in my alloy then wws have. I use alot of ww sweetened with about 3 percent tin. Im not a fan of water dropping bullets. Most bullet failures ive seen have been from them. It tends to make for a more brittle bullet that will fracture on impact. Some day i will have to learn to live with it though as my lineotype stash is getting small and its just about impossible for me to find up here anymore and by the time you buy it and have it shipped the cost is just to high.

[jk3006]

Will treating them in the oven have a more positive effect, as that's the way I would do it vs water dropping right from the mold?  Or maybe you were referring to either method?

Im not a fan of water dropping bullets. Most bullet failures ive seen have been from them. It tends to make for a more brittle bullet that will fracture on impact. 

[jk3006]

I hunt deer and black bear.  Someday would like to go after hogs and maybe a buffalo.  I realize I'm probably making too much of this, but I can't help myself, as I like to know what works and what doesn't so that I can have maximum confidence in my load when I finally get that far.  The more I understand now the less I'll have to ask for help later when I get my stuff collected and organized.  I'm the same way with my rifles.  I don't stop when I've got a decent shooter until I've tested all the powder charges with whatever powder I've decided to use, tested different seating depths, and tried different primers. 

[Sweetwater]

My take on your lubrisizer - The Star is probably the "cadillac" of the ones generally available and, as Lloyd has pointed out, it's his first choice. You'll not go wrong following Lloyd's advice. The RCBS model has a tremendous warranty as outlined by GB and others. And it works. The Lyman 450 just may be more available sometimes (probably as others are upgrading) and is probably the cheaper in the used market. Mine was $15 for a box of stuff which contained a Lee Electric Melting pot as well as the Lyman 450 and some dies and some pure lead. It was a steal, so I don't mind buying a few parts for it. So far it has cost $13.69 in parts and shipping - not a big deal from here. We are talking cheaper than a Lee sizer here and it lubes also. The dies for Lyman and RCBS are interchangeable - not so with Star and some of the others. I've had this Lyman 450 for 16years. I just might have to keep it.
Oh, and that Lee pot is still running, though not like a new one. I've used it for smelting and, also as Lloyd has pointed out, that's not a good idea as it takes forever to get it cleaned out and stuff gets into the bottom pourer and things get messy, especially when you melt the next batch of lead and it starts running all over the place because some particle is holding the bottom pourer open.

Like Veral's molds, the 'good stuff' just makes everything more satisfying. You get to pick and choose which to splurge on and which to economize with.

Your 'methodology' of exploring all the possible powder/primer/bullet combinations will teach you much - it's a great education. Now add it your cast bullets with and without gaschecks, various crimps, various seating depths, various sizings, various lubes, and you've just started on a whole new program.
Stay safe and have fun!

Regards,
Sweetwater

[jk3006]

One thing at a time.  Don't wanna totally overwhelm myself.   

Thanks for all the good advice.

Now add it your cast bullets with and without gaschecks, various crimps, various seating depths, various sizings, various lubes, and you've just started on a whole new program.
Stay safe and have fun!

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Lloyd Smale]

its a much more consistant way to harden bullets. With some trial and error you can control how hard your bullets turn out. One of the things i dont like about water dropping is that every bullet hits the water at a differnt temp and i just dont see how you can get consistant hardness doing it. I still prefer alloying to get my hardness. Tin and antiomony added to lead harden it and leave it still ductable instead of brittle.

Will treating them in the oven have a more positive effect, as that's the way I would do it vs water dropping right from the mold?  Or maybe you were referring to either method?

Im not a fan of water dropping bullets. Most bullet failures ive seen have been from them. It tends to make for a more brittle bullet that will fracture on impact. 

[jk3006]

Funny, as Beartooth Bullets states that heat-treating the bullets with a 3-4% antimony content is the way to go, and that the higher antimony stuff (like linotype) will make for a brittle bullet.  I'm sure you've arrived at your conclusions from your own testing. 

One more question.  Maybe I missed it, but are you saying that oven heat-treating and water quenching from the mold are both bad options, with the oven method a little better?  Have you experienced or seen brittle bullets that were properly heat-treated in an oven?

its a much more consistant way to harden bullets. With some trial and error you can control how hard your bullets turn out. One of the things i dont like about water dropping is that every bullet hits the water at a differnt temp and i just dont see how you can get consistant hardness doing it. I still prefer alloying to get my hardness. Tin and antiomony added to lead harden it and leave it still ductable instead of brittle.

[Lloyd Smale]

We have done a ton of penetration testing. Granted out penetration testing methods are severe. We shoot into wet print but first into either a shoulder bone of a cow or a  buffalo and if there not available we use oak. At handgun velocitys the only bullets ive seen fracture are heat treated bullets. Typicaly when they fail its a keith or swc that fails and what happens is the nose breaks off right at the driving band. I gave a talk at one linebaugh seminar about this happening and about got hung by the guys that have preached the greatness of heat treated bullets. Only one guy really stood up for me and that was frank who owns mt baldy bullets. Hes allways been an advocate of air cooled properly alloyed bullets. Well after a took all the abuse of being told i didnt know what i was talking about we went to the range. There we witnessed three bullet failures just like i had told them about and low and behold they were all with cast performance bullets that were dropped in water. After that i had many of the people that jumped on me during the talk come up and ask for advice on casting. Kelly Brost owned cast performance at that time and he is also a freind. He admitted then that the only reason he water drops his bullets is that most are made on an automatic casting machine and if he let the bullets fall from the mold into the containers they would be still so hot that they would have dipples and dents from hitting each other and even though they would be fine people would complain and call his product junk.
    this is why commercail caster water drop bullets. that and they can get away with using cheaper alloys and still sell hard bullets. The same logic goes into there lube selection. they use those useless hard lubes because a good soft lube will not hold up in shipping and the customer would rather get a box of pretty bullets then a box of bullets that worked. In combination there extreamly hard water dropped bullets dont tend to lead as much when using a useless lube. Believe me no commercail caster is water dropping bullets because they think there better its a matter of economics and ease of manufacturing and if they tell you any differnt there bald face liers. No handgun load you can work up needs a bullet any harder then 20bhn and 15-18bhn in all reality is plenty hard for any velocity up to about 2000 fps. If your gun leads with a bullet that is 15bhn at 1400 fps you need to work on your gun not make your alloy harder.
    Back to penetration testing for a second. The alloy that has shown to be about ideal in testing magnum handguns is a mix of 5050 ww/lino. It goes between 15-18 bhn depending on how fresh your lineotype is. It makes a bullet that is hard enough yet still ductable enough. It will resist deforming and when it does it will not shear off. It also carrys a little more weight then straight linotype and that probably helps in pentration. Contrary to what you will read straight linotype does not fracture at handgun velocitys. It will at rifle velocitys but then about any alloy will either deform or fracture when hitting something hard like bone at 2000 fps.
      Now to the water drop vs oven treating. The answer goes to ways here. Yes i think oven treating is better but only if you know what your doing and can control the hardness your getting. What oven treating has going for it is consistancy. All the bullets are dropped into the water at exactly the same temp. Unlike water dropping where every bullet is comming out of the mold at differnt temps. Its impossible to be so smooth casting that you can control the temp of the bullets anywhere near accurately. Where oven treating is worse is if you crank up the oven to just the point ww bullets slump and water drop them, which is the way people will tell you to do it, your going to end up with a bullet that is extreamly hard. Im talking bhn numbers over 30. Those bullets are going to be BRITTLE! Now if you fool around and mix pure lead tin and ww in proper amounts and control the temp your heating your bullets to you can make a good bullet. In my opinion tin content may be the trick to the whole thing. You may need to use reverse thinking doing it. When you are casting air cooled bullets its a good idea not to let the tin level go higher then the antimony as when you do your bullets will actually get softer. When water dropping like this its probably a good idea to get your tin level a bit higher then your antimony so that your bullets stay ductable.
    As much as i preach against water dropping bullets its something that about every caster is going to eventually have to do. If your like me youve found that finding linotype anymore is about impossible. At least without morgaging your house.  Proper heat treating is probably going to be a nessisary skill for casting in the future.
     Now i dont claim to be a scientist and i dont know if my opinions, and thats what this is is just my opinion, hold up to the scrutiny of some of the more intelegent people here. But i know that my opinions came from actuall testing not from stuff other guys have said on the internet and from people who are in bussiness to sell you bullets and want you to think there product is better then someone elses. So take this advice or dont. Bottom line is about any cast bullet will take game and 99 percent of the people that are using cast to hunt will never shoot anything bigger then a deer and a deer can be killed with about any bullet.