Author Topic: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!  (Read 13781 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline p5200

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Gender: Male
I've found two other people on different forums with accuracy problems with the Vanguards as well as I. one said the best he could get was 3 to 4" 3 shot groups at 100yds. He said he had to freefloat, and bed and finally got close to MOA. groups. Mine is not quite that bad but, I have 3 .22's that will easily out shoot mine in 30-06 cal. I think they need to remove, their 1 1/2" out of box guarantee as it is verry misleading! I am afraid to put any money into it as the barrel may be the major weak link if so, I would just be throwing more money away than the $400.00 I already have. Dear season is right around the corner and after all the saving for a gun I did was down the drain as I wouldn't hunt with that joke of a gun my 30 30 would be a better choice. I would like to know what gun they shot my test target from to produce a 5/8" group with two rounds in one hole. I don't know if this is just starting, or has been going on for a while. just wanted to warn everyone about their quality control issues.    :)

Offline sachel.45

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 476
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2008, 10:35:16 PM »
have you tried diffrent ammo? checked your scope and rings? i have a 30-06 that i can cover three shots with a dime same with my dads .243. what group size are you getting? and if that all checks out send your gun back weatherby will fix it. btw my 30-06 seems to like the 180 grain bullets the best i usually shoot federal fusion or the blue box
common sense is slowly becoming uncommon

Offline Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4695
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2008, 06:56:38 AM »
Don't know what's wrong with yours, but I have one Vanguard and two Howa's and they will all shoot 1 1/2 MOA or better (.223, .243 and .338).
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline p5200

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2008, 12:40:23 PM »
Yeah, I haven't a clue what's going on with this gun  :(. I am going to try and find maybe a DVD video on stock bedding and how to pillar as I just can't seem to quite grasp what's going on with photos no matter how clear and precise they are. do these centerfire barrels shoot better after being shot more like the rim fire rifles (break in)? after all, I have only shot one 20rnd. box of Rem. 150 grn. core-lokts.  Thanks!    :)

Offline mjbgalt

  • Trade Count: (26)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2367
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2008, 01:13:30 PM »
the guarantee isnt that you can pick it up out of the box and it will shoot 1.5." the guarantee is that if it DOESN'T, they will make it do so for free.

plus, all the bedding and such is unnecessary on these. they shoot best with the little contact point in the end of the forend.

i would try different ammo. i have had a couple of these and they seem to HATE certain ammo and LOVE others.

-Matt
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline p5200

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2008, 02:41:24 PM »
Hi Matt, I fully understand the guarantee interpretation, my problem is I bought this rifle to go Deer hunting in a few weeks and now that is out of the question unless I trade it locally and take a loss as I'M sure even if they replaced the gun, I wouldn't have it in time speaking from past experiences. also, if they are going to test fire the new one they send (out of the stock) the test target they send won't reflect what the full rifle all together, is really capable of and I could just wind up right back where I started from. If they really want to prove how accurate their rifles are and not, misslead their customers, why not test them in their stock? I mean after all, they know the two will have to be used together. As stated by Graybeard, (their method of testing accuracy is meanningless) and the customer is buying nothing more than a grab bag. JMHO.   :)

Offline sachel.45

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 476
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2008, 04:27:14 PM »
you need to try more than one box of ammo if your gun doesnt like that brand then its not going to shot very well. theres a bunch of places that are having sales on ammo right now. try some winchester or federal or remington try more than one grain size try 165 or 180 or diffrent brand of 150. one box of shells isnt nearly enough to say that your rifle isnt accurate
common sense is slowly becoming uncommon

Offline mjbgalt

  • Trade Count: (26)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2367
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2008, 04:46:26 PM »
i see what you mean.

how about trying a few different brands of ammo, maybe even diff. bullet weights before trading? you may find one that works for now, and buys you some time.

that way you dont lose $200 or something...in a trade.

-Matt
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline p5200

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2008, 04:57:27 PM »
i see what you mean.

how about trying a few different brands of ammo, maybe even diff. bullet weights before trading? you may find one that works for now, and buys you some time.

that way you dont lose $200 or something...in a trade.

-Matt
  Just curious, has anyone played with the action screw torques on the Vanguard stocks? I did, remove my stock to adjust trigger for pull weight and creep. when i reinstalled the stock I torqued the action screws to 20"lbs. front & rear. I know on an unbedded rimfire I have seen huge differences in group size and, consistency? Think I will give that a try before I trade the Vanguard any thoughts? Thanks!

Offline p5200

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2008, 05:22:07 PM »
you need to try more than one box of ammo if your gun doesnt like that brand then its not going to shot very well. theres a bunch of places that are having sales on ammo right now. try some winchester or federal or remington try more than one grain size try 165 or 180 or diffrent brand of 150. one box of shells isnt nearly enough to say that your rifle isnt accurate
I'll get some Winchester to try tomorrow funds are tight so, it may take me a while to find one it likes if any. Also, I'm going to play with the torque settings on the action screws.  Thanks!   :)

Offline Catfish

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2696
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2008, 09:57:45 AM »
I just worked on my son-in-laws in 7 mm mag. It was around 3 in groups when I started, but by only litely sanding the edges of the barrel channel and sanding off a couple .001 of the frount presure point my next 3 shot group was abt. .600 in. After he fired a couple of groups around 2 in. I thought the first might have been a fluke shot I fire 3 more at abt. .500 in.

Offline p5200

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2008, 10:56:50 AM »
Sounds like you did good! when you say pressure point, are you refering to the brace that runs across the forearm about 6" from tip of forearm? Also, since the barrel seems to rest on the forearm tip did you sand it down lightly too!  Thanks!    :)

Offline p5200

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2008, 12:40:32 PM »
http://i452.photobucket.com/albums/qq249/p5200/Vanguard30-06Targets001.jpg
http://i452.photobucket.com/albums/qq249/p5200/Vanguard30-06Targets002.jpg
http://i452.photobucket.com/albums/qq249/p5200/Vanguard30-06Targets003.jpg
http://i452.photobucket.com/albums/qq249/p5200/Vanguard30-06Targets004.jpg
http://i452.photobucket.com/albums/qq249/p5200/Vanguard30-06Targets005.jpg


Here are some targets from today at just 50yds. to give an idea of how this rifle shoots. I did have to tighten the Weaver rings a little. I'm hoping that's why I had such trouble the other day as I really do like thi gun the looks, feel, and it's heavier than some which is what I like!  excuse the camera work, I'm just learning to use one   ;D

Offline kyelkhunter3006

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (20)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1576
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2008, 01:10:42 PM »
If you take the average of those groups at 50yds and double it, you'll be close to the 1.5" average at 100 yds.  I've had 3 Vanguards, all shot well.  One was a standard 30-06 and the other two were Varmint Specials in .308 and .223.  Of the box with no tinkering, all were 2" or less at 100 yds with just about anything I tried.  With the loads they likes, there were 1" or less.  The test load is usually printed on the target. 

For some reason, everybody thinks that they should be able to get a gun, toss the box, slap a scope on, use any ammo, and get 1" or less with it.  I've owned at least 50 different bolt action centerfire rifles, and the guns that will do that are few and far between.  Matter of fact, the only ones I can recall are a Win. M70 30-06, a CZ 527 in 7.62x39, two Savage .308's, and a Remington 700 LSS MTN rifle in 30-06.  The hard facts are that if you have a new gun that's shooting less than 2" at 100yds with various types of ammo, you've got an exceptional gun.  A little tweaking is generally going to get you more accuracy than you can effectivle use in the field from hunting positions.

IMHO, your first mistake was buying a brand new gun for a hunt that near in the future.  Unless you get out and burn some ammo, the gun's not going to settle in, the scope won't settle in, and you're not going to settle in and be comfortable with the gun.  Every gun will progressively shoot better as it's broken in.  If not, there's a mechanical issue with the gun, like a bad barrel, for example.  As for the grab bag comment, that is the chance with any new rifle.  Not just the Vanguard.

Offline p5200

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2008, 01:41:19 PM »
Yeah, I hope this gun does work out for me as I like everything about it looks, feel, and also heavier than others which I like a heavy gun. Thanks!    :)

Offline kyelkhunter3006

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (20)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1576
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2008, 01:58:47 PM »
I like them quite a bit, especially the way the Weatherby style stock is.  It fits me well, I have sloping shoulders, and the way the butt of the stock is designed, it puts the pad right in the socket of my shoulder perfectly, and the cheekpiece is right where it needs to be.  Straighter butts tend to place just the toe of the stock in my shoulder in order for me to get a firm cheekweld on the stock.  With the harder recoiling guns, that gets a tad painful after a while.

Offline mjbgalt

  • Trade Count: (26)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2367
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2008, 02:17:22 PM »
looks like it likes the corelockts. you now know what bullet to use.

i really think you just haven't found a load it likes yet.

it should be under an inch at 100 yards. tightening the scope was a good step. i would also use fingernail polish on the threads, to lock em in. yes, i steal it from my wife.

other things would be to make sure the barrel is good and clean and to make sure you shoot off a very sturdy rest, like a sandbag. shooting off a crappy unsteady rest makes my guns and me shoot very poorly, even with guns i KNOW shoot less than an inch.

i think you're good to go with this rifle, i was wondering if you would have to trade it and start over but it looks to have potential.

-Matt
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline Tunaman

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2008, 02:25:05 PM »
Please don't take this as a personal attack but after seeing the groups from your second round of shooting, I don't think that it is the Gun. Any time that you have to tighten the rings, it is not the gun nor the Manufacture. just doing that brought you down quite a bit. If you have only tried one load, that is not there fault. Experimenting with rounds brought you down a bit as well. There are probably several rounds out there that will bring you down to sub moa like the winchesters did. Look at this as a learning experience, You had a pretty good shooter the whole time. I am not super brand loyal to Weatherby, I only own two, one Vanguard in 257 roy and a Mark 5 in 240 roy. The 257 shoots 1/2-3/4 moa all day but it took me a bit to find a load for it and it turned out to be a factory load. I couldn't do any better than weatherby in 257. I load for the 240 and it ddn't take too long to find a load for this one. The 240 shoots better than the 257, it is almost scarey. The 257 came with a trigger that was a bit heavy but I was able to work it down, the 240 was perfect at 3 1/4#. I am not a brand guy, as I said, I own a bunch of different brands of Rifles and Shotguns but I can honestly say that I have only heard of a handful of real problems with the Howa/Vangaud rifles and I have never had a problem myself. These days, It is so rare to get a Lemon from any reputable brand. Notice, I didn't say impossible, but it is rare. Good Luck with your Rifle and I wouldn't trade it yet.

Offline p5200

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2008, 03:28:39 PM »
No offence taken, I just want to thank everyone for their advice and, now I will go eat some more crow   ;D

Offline Bart Solo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 706
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2008, 06:30:06 AM »
Last week  my brand new Weatherby Vanguard 30-06 was able to put 3 125 grain managed recoil Remington rounds within an inch  Two of them were in the same hole.  During the week I adjusted the trigger and this weekend I was able to hold 6 shots at about 1 1/2  inches easily.  That was firing inexpensive 150 grain Winchester ammunition.  I haven't finished breaking in the barrel and I haven't done any hand loading yet, but I suspect with the right hand loads it will be very accurate.

I am glad you tightened your rings.   :)

Offline reindeer1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Posts: 3
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2008, 10:04:59 AM »
A year ago I purchased a Howas 1500 barreled stainless steel action in 30-06. I also ordered a Bell&Carlson stock for it, the Vanguard type with FLBB and I replaced the factory trigger for a Timney.
When the stock arrived I noticed that the barrel channel was not completely straight with the barrel itself touching at the left side of the tip. There was no way of correcting this by sanding away material from the barrel channel without getting a wide gap at the right side of the channel. In this way I was disappointed with the fitting by B&C, but having waited 8 weeks for the stock to arrive from the US here in the Netherlands, I decided not to send the stock back, but to correct this failure.
Due to this failure there was of course also a great deal of uneven pressure on the two pressure points at the tip.
I decided to skinbed the area around the recoil lug, the two points at the trigger area, the first 1,5" of the barrel and the rear end of the tang. I used a two component glue, reinforced with aluminium powder, which bonds rocksolid hard.
When I laid the barreled system into the stock and the bedding material. I forced the barrel a little to the right with thin wedges in such a way that the barrel was now straight in the channel for the full length of it.
When the bedding material was cured, I took the barreled action out, cleaned it from release agent, put it back in again and tightened the actrion screws. The barrel was now indeed in line with the channel, but still touching a little here and there. I carefully sanded these spots down a little until the barrel was completely free, except from the two pressure points in the front.
I took the rifle to the range and fired some handloads that had proven themselves very accurate in other rifles I owned. The smallest 5 shot group I could get was a little under 2" at 100 metres, far from what I consider acceptable.
I decided to sand down the two pressure points completely, because these are not present in any European rifle brand I have owned and I have always believed in completely free floated barrels.
Back to the range and the groups tightened up to 1". So much for (uneven!) front tip pressure!
Then I started discussing this on a German forum where there is a guy who has done a lot of customizing on Howa barreled actions. My loads were rather hot, 57 grains of VV N160 for a 180 gr. Accubond, barely touching the lands.
He told me he had found out that for some reason he could not explain, Howa barrels don't like hot loads and do like a little free run , at least 0,08".
I followed his advice, backed down to 54 gr. of powder and this 0.08" free run
Back to the range again and I was stunned! The groups tightened to 0,5 inch for five shot groups instantly and a ten shot group delivered one big ragged hole at 100 meters!

I cannot say that this treatment will work for every Howa made rifle, but it did for mine.
As far as the Timney trigger; I have one on a Mauser in .308 and got used to the excellent characteristics of it. The factury trigger had some creep that I was able to take out, but every now and then it was back, due to too big tolerances in this trigger. When I put the Timney in and adjusted it to 1,5 Lbs and no creep, I was excited by the huge improvement the Timey added to this rifle.
I can only say: The factory trigger is not bad, compared to what other riflemakers offer, but the Timney is worth every dime of the € 90,-- I had to pay for it.


Offline Bart Solo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 706
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2008, 10:24:24 AM »
I just finished reading an article by  Chuck Hawks http://www.chuckhawks.com/practical_accuracy.htm  on hunting accuracy.  According to Hawks a hunting rifle doesn't really need to shoot sub MOA at 100 yards. For all practical purposes any rifle that can consistently put a bullet in about a 6 inch circle at hunting range is accurate enough.  Hawks argues that none of us should be shooting deer size game at more than four hundred yards.  I am not so sure.  What do you think. 

Offline kyelkhunter3006

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (20)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1576
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2008, 01:38:30 PM »
My response to that is that it's not the rifle's ability to put a bullet in a 6" circle out to 400 yds, it's the shooter's ability.  That means get off the bench, and do it from field rests, whether a bipod, sticks, back pack....

I don't think that sub MOA angle is mechanically needed for a one shot kill at 400 yds....  For some people, sub MOA definitely is needed at the mental aspect...

I compare this to the people that are convinced that they need at least a .300 Ultra Mag for deer hunting, when a 25-06 or .270 (insert any other non-magnum round of your choice here) will do the same thing with a lot less fuss at both ends of the gun.

Offline JonnyC

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 428
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2008, 09:26:59 AM »
trY PLACING A RUBBER o-RING IN THE LUG SO THE BARREL IS ELEVATED AND FREE FLOATING. mADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE AND A CHEAP FIX.
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

Offline p5200

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2008, 02:25:25 PM »
trY PLACING A RUBBER o-RING IN THE LUG SO THE BARREL IS ELEVATED AND FREE FLOATING. mADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE AND A CHEAP FIX.
Sounds like an idea to see which way my particular barrel will shoot it's best.  Thanks for the tip it beats sanding and maybe, finding out it shot better before  ;D I guess if all barrels of same models have differences in ammo preferences, it could be possible the same models could also prefer floated, or not floated.   :)

Offline kyelkhunter3006

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (20)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1576
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2008, 08:39:53 AM »
I'd put it on the pad behind the lug recess, not in the lug itself.  That way there's still solid contact at the bedding point, and no chance of putting stress on the action itself.

Offline Bart Solo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 706
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2008, 05:48:03 AM »
p5200

Larry Potterfield of Midway USA has a 2:00 minute video on barrel floating.  You might want to give it a look. [yt=425,350]g0snATO8iJw[/yt]
You will notice that he suggests free floating a wood stock because wood expands with humidity.  It's not the touching of the stock that is the problem. The problem is the touch point and pressure changes with the weather.  Your Vanguard has a synthetic stock.  Actually you have a pretty good composite stock if you have the Bell and Carlson model.  Weather is not really a problem with a good sythetic stock. The old black Tupperware stock was not so good.  A lot of folks just replace them.

There is a guy on another thread complaining that his Bell and Carlson replacement stock's forearm was slightly bent when he got it.  That is a defective stock and he should send it back. 

Offline p5200

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2008, 03:48:04 PM »
If this is indeed, a Bell & Carlson stock I thought about ordering one of these pillar bedding kits price seems fair enough.  Any thoughts?   http://www.scorehi.com/main.htm

Offline Tunaman

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2008, 04:04:01 PM »
I think that you are getting ahead of yourself. Shoot the rifle and determine how it shoots with the right load and the optics right before you go fixing something that aint broke. A lot of Rifles shoot very well just the way they are shipped. Now, if you determine that the gun will not shoot right after you have broken in the barrel and you have found its load, Then you may want to bed or float it. Some times the best thin to do to a rfle is nothing.

Offline p5200

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Gender: Male
Re: Weatherby's Vanguard, 1 1/2" accuracy gurantee doesn't mean squat!!!
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2008, 04:49:24 PM »
No, I don't think I am, I have put many rounds through the gun as of now and I think there is accuracy to be gained with verry little money providing, it has a decent barrel to begin with who knows? I have improved to some degree, on every rifle I have owned so far ususally with a better trigger for sure. I mean what's it going to hurt to try to improve the accuracy and consistency of any rifle for $55.00? I have put the o-ring under the action and, reduced my groups and, consistency groups by more than half getting 1/2" and some 3/4" and that's not with match ammo. so, that for sure tells me the rifle can and needs to be improved upon when something as simple as an o-ring can make that much difference. Also, I thought I would post the link to those that might find it useful Just trying to be a nice guy but, I do have my limits on what I can tolerate. I should have kept my Savage 10FP in .223 verry verry! accurate