Tc going out of buisness??

[stanw]

I heard that TC was laying off some 80 employees and may close there doors if the economy does not pick up. I am not trying to start a rumor just passing on what I heard from a good source. Don't beat me up on this has any one heard any thing about this?

[Grumulkin]

I presume you know that Smith & Wesson owns T/C?

[Keith L]

I wonder if their casting business is struggling.  I don't know if they still do, but before the sale they did lots of contract casting.  My understanding was that they would be doing S&Ws casting as well now that they were part of the family.  Maybe the contract casting business is slow.

[stanw]

Yes I know smith and wesson owns TC. I don't know what part just the lay off and workers have a chance to buy two guns at cost before they leave. A friend of mine works with a lady whos husband works for TC so this is all rumor and I just wanted to learn more.

[Graybeard]

In my opinion both before and continuing after the S&W buy out has been making some really bad decisions. They appear to spend more advertising dollars than any other two or three gun makers combined. They sponsor practically every hunting show on TV and pay part or all of the hunting trip costs for several gun writers/celebraties every season. They've jumped into non traditional markets for their brand name and I suspect have fallen on their faces with the new introductions. The after market barrel market has pretty much dried up their barrel sales.

I don't see them going out of business but I do see how they are highly likely to have to cut back drastically in the manner in which they do business.

[Grumulkin]

What they ought to do is:

1.  Dump the stupid Icon that does nothing bunches of other good bolt action rifles do at much less cost.
2.  Bring back the ejector for Encores/Contenders.
3.  Bring back the TCR rifle.  That was the T/C rifle I was originally going to buy but, when I called T/C to order one, they said they had stopped making them.
4.  Research what advantages shooters get with aftermarket products/services and make sure T/C provides those products/services at a competitive cost.

[pablo54]

Wait a minute. You mean TC should use common sense in running their business?
What a concept.

[Swampman]

In my opinion both before and continuing after the S&W buy out has been making some really bad decisions. They appear to spend more advertising dollars than any other two or three gun makers combined. They sponsor practically every hunting show on TV and pay part or all of the hunting trip costs for several gun writers/celebraties every season. They've jumped into non traditional markets for their brand name and I suspect have fallen on their faces with the new introductions. The after market barrel market has pretty much dried up their barrel sales.

I don't see them going out of business but I do see how they are highly likely to have to cut back drastically in the manner in which they do business.

I'm so tired of looking at T/Cs and (T/C logos on hats) on hunting shows that I doubt I'll ever buy another.

[dakotashooter2]

Generally when two companies merge at some point there are some layoffs due to consolidation. This does not suprise me. I too would love to see the TCR come back. I think there would still be a market for a single shot rifle in a more traditional styling. Mosberg tried it but in my opinion their guns were too bulky and I recall they may have had some accuracy issues that kind of killed them. I believe Knight has jumped into the single shot market and may be marketing the gun TC should still be selling. Many TC owners have gone to multiple frames to avoid going back and forth from handgun to rifle so I think idea of gun that can be converted from rifle to handgun  and back has lost much appeal.  While the switch barrel concept for one or the other still has much appeal. If they need a new market maybe they should look at double guns. Or one that would accept a single or double barrel configuration. Such a concept on a TRC type frame which would be lighter and more streamline than the savage guns would really appeal to me and I'm sure others.

[yooper77]

All businesses during this tough economy are streamlining there people, Thompson Center/Smith & Wesson are no different.  Going out of business, I don’t think so.  T/C is trying to make a buck, just like all the others.  T/C Icon, if it puts money in their pocket from the bolt action market then who can blame them.  Just like Knight trying to cut a piece of the quick change single shot barrel system pie, I can’t blame them.

Sure, I would love many firearms to come back:
Savage, bring back the 99.
Remington, bring back the 788 and trash the cheap economy line.
T/C, bring back the TCR.

The military is also trying to do more with less buy closing bases and getting rid of people, I heard Cirrus (small personal aircraft company) are laying off people, because of the market slump.

yooper77

[onesonek]

In my opinion both before and continuing after the S&W buy out has been making some really bad decisions. They appear to spend more advertising dollars than any other two or three gun makers combined. They sponsor practically every hunting show on TV and pay part or all of the hunting trip costs for several gun writers/celebraties every season. They've jumped into non traditional markets for their brand name and I suspect have fallen on their faces with the new introductions. The after market barrel market has pretty much dried up their barrel sales.

I don't see them going out of business but I do see how they are highly likely to have to cut back drastically in the manner in which they do business.

Maybe so on some decissions Bill, but if you were to compare advertising it seems those that spend the most win.
Just for example, look at the camo market. Jordan Outdoors (RealTree etc.) and Mossy Oak are the two top competitors, but Lynch's Superflauge Game was perhaps the first true 3-D patterns, and isn't widely or heavily advertised. Very very nice pattern in my mind, but you don't see it much outside of specialized markets like me.

I noticed my sales are slower than expected so far this fall. I think the money is tighter and folks are spending less, maybe mostly to all the extra money that went into the gas tank.  Some more down sizing may happen  with this crdit crunch going on as well.

Dave

[onesonek]

In my opinion both before and continuing after the S&W buy out has been making some really bad decisions. They appear to spend more advertising dollars than any other two or three gun makers combined. They sponsor practically every hunting show on TV and pay part or all of the hunting trip costs for several gun writers/celebraties every season. They've jumped into non traditional markets for their brand name and I suspect have fallen on their faces with the new introductions. The after market barrel market has pretty much dried up their barrel sales.

I don't see them going out of business but I do see how they are highly likely to have to cut back drastically in the manner in which they do business.

I'm so tired of looking at T/Cs and (T/C logos on hats) on hunting shows that I doubt I'll ever buy another.

I guess that be your perogative, nobody is forcing you to

[tcshooter52]

Times are deffently getting hard with the elections, the bail out?. The problem with T/C is junk barrels. If they would make good ones then you would'nt have the after market makers. Granted some of there barrels are ok but, when you have to send one of there barrels (or 2,3,4 out to a decent smith because T/C says there is nothing wrong with there product makes you kind of wonder). I think if they brought back the TCR you would see a change however don't know what S&W would think about that idea.

Just my 2 cents worth.

John

[Keith L]

I think it is relatively rare that you get a "junk barrel" from TC or any other barrel maker.  I have all kinds of TC stuff, and the few items I have had trouble with have been taken care of quickly and at no cost to me.  Most folks I talk with that have TC equipment have the same view.  If you are consistently getting "junk" from them perhaps the use you want them for is incorrect, or you are doing something wrong.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[LONGTOM]

"Wait a minute. You mean TC should use common sense in running their business?
What a concept".

I wonder if we could sell the government on that idea? Probably not! 


LONGTOM

[Ladobe]

Just my opinion on some flat statements...

Percentage wise, TC lets very few barrels with problems get out to the buying public, so excuse me if I put little faith in an assessment that they are junk.   I've owned over 200 Contender/Encore barrels in 40 years as a serious Contender user (well over half of them TC factory barrels) - never had a bad barrel yet.   Bet all the other MFG's wish they had such a good track record.   And don't forget that TC's lifetime warranty is the best in the business.   What is thought to be problematic barrel often turns out to be within factory specs, and the problem (if there really is one) is from another cause.   These are production barrels, not custom barrels, but many of them still shoot nearly as well.

As for the after market barrel makers, they have been around almost from the start of the TC Contender.   Those shops didn't start because TC makes bad barrels, but to offer cartridges/wildcats and configurations that TC didn't include in their factory barrel line up, for the option of premium barrel blanks for those who want them, and for custom instead of SAAMI chambers.   TC obviously didn't think that was such a bad idea since they eventually added the Foxridge barrels to also offer more configurations and cartridges for a piece of the action.     

Some of the custom barrel makers send out bad barrels out too, from poor workmanship or from bad blanks being used.   And they are often less willing to stand behind their barrels as well as TC does.   So I guess the barrel market is not a perfect world after all. 
 
I doubt any of the models TC lost the tooling for in the plant fire will ever come back.    Wasn't enough sales at the time to justify the high cost of retooling for them back then, and with the way the market has changed, potential sales would be even less now.    Traditional muzzleloading firearms were being replaced by in-lines (really sad), and the TCR line was replaced by the Encore.

 

[onesonek]

I think it is relatively rare that you get a "junk barrel" from TC or any other barrel maker.  I have all kinds of TC stuff, and the few items I have had trouble with have been taken care of quickly and at no cost to me.  Most folks I talk with that have TC equipment have the same view.  If you are consistently getting "junk" from them perhaps the use you want them for is incorrect, or you are doing something wrong.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I agree.

Dave

[Graybeard]

If you want to sell product advertising is an absolute necessity of that there is no doubt. I just think TC is over doing their advertising budget. Perhaps they don't and perhaps they are right and I'm wrong. BUT they are paying for too many hunts for too many folks and not spending their advertising dollars wisely in my opinion. But then so far at least they've not asked for my opinion. 

[quickdtoo]

Here are some details of the layoff.

Tim

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080927/GJNEWS_01/709279916/-1/FOSNEWS

Thompson Center Arms lays off 80 ; state, city to help workers find jobs

By BILL O'CONNOR
boconnor@fosters.com
 

Article Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008
ROCHESTER — Both the state and city will be doing as much as possible to help the 80 or so production workers laid off Thursday at Thompson Center Arms, city Economic Development Manager Karen Pollard said Friday.

"Of course we're very sad that this (staff reduction) has been proven necessary," Pollard said. "We view these people as valuable members of our state's work force and want to help them secure alternate employment as quickly as possible."

This latest round of staffing cuts, which follows a 36-position reduction at the plant back in February, came down from Smith & Wesson Holding Corp., the parent company of the famous arms manufacturer that acquired Thompson Center Arms in January 2007.

Smith & Wesson President and CEO Michael F. Golden said in a press release issued by the company Thursday the reduction in force is due to the current economic state of the nation.

"Economic conditions and their impact on consumer discretionary spending have negatively impacted the hunting-related long gun portion of our business," he said. "Until the market for these products strengthens, we remain focused on making sure that our factories operate efficiently. We have made the difficult decision to eliminate 80 production jobs in our New Hampshire manufacturing operations, a facility dedicated to the production of hunting rifles."

The layoffs signified roughly 18 percent of Thompson Center Arms work force, reducing the number of workers at the factory to roughly 360.

Pollard said workers from the state Department of Employment Security in Somersworth were on hand at the Route 11 production plant Thursday to help former employees make the transition and enrolling into state programs to help them find new employment opportunities.

Among the state-offered programs and services for the workers are training sessions and employment placement services, she said.

Liz Sharp, vice-president of investor relations at Smith & Wesson, said the reduction in staff was necessary to put the factory in line with the current market trends the long gun hunting industry is experiencing.

Pollard said she believes Smith & Wesson wouldn't have made the cuts unless they were absolutely necessary and is optimistic about employment opportunities available in the Rochester area for employees who were subject to the layoff.

"There are still companies that are hiring in the area," she said. "These workers are skilled laborers, and we're hoping to get these people into new jobs as soon as possible."


 

[onesonek]

If you want to sell product advertising is an absolute necessity of that there is no doubt. I just think TC is over doing their advertising budget. Perhaps they don't and perhaps they are right and I'm wrong. BUT they are paying for too many hunts for too many folks and not spending their advertising dollars wisely in my opinion. But then so far at least they've not asked for my opinion. 

They don't ask mine either, even though I have at least one suggestion

[teddy12b]

Look on the bright side, we can all own part of S&W for less than $3 a share these days.  Ticker symbol SWHC.  I plan on picking some shares up.


FYI,

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=AP&date=20080925&id=9192630

Smith & Wesson cuts 80 jobs at Rochester, NH plant.

[Keith L]

Tim, thanks for posting the article.  I am concerned that it won't be the last one we see in the current economy.

Dave, Brunswick is paring things down.  My youngest son just lost his job at Mercury Marine in fond du Lac, WI along with about 220 others.  He was lucky to get a job right away with Oshkosh Truck remanufacturing trucks for the military.  There is a steady stream coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan worn out and broken, so I hope it is more steady work for him.

And I am glad that the bailout has prevented the economy from further softening, only falling 600 pints within the first five minutes this morning.  Happy days are here again!

[JON8777]

I hate to see anyone lose a job, no matter what the situation, but its a fact of life anymore. The days of starting your job at 22 years of age and staying with that comapany till retirement are all but gone. Gods speed to anyone that gets layed off in finding a job.

IMO the S/W - TC merge was a bad decision. The Icon (soon to be Warrior??) is an expensive joke and S/W's new rifles (bolt and semi's) sound like a bucket of pot metal bolts being tossed into a trash can.

Why cant TC go back to days of being that "sleeper" gun company where you paid for a great gun and not for TV time AND the gun. Like back when you told your buddy in the 90's that you bought a Contender or Encore and he looked at you like you were crazy for buying it. Not the company that every yuppie with an extra 1k in the pocket buys one, goes on a hunt only to find out he cant hit the side of a barn with only one shot.

Sorry for the rant...

[NoBull60]

First of all, let me say that I agree with most of what you folks are saying. I just purchased my first TC, used of course, and I'm not sure of the gun yet. I have been a fan of their guns for some time now. Since I don't know much about TCArms and where they do what for what part of the gun, I therefore don't know where they make the barrels. If the layoff affects barrel manufacture, it will take forever to get any additional barrels. My purchase of the TC may prove to be a less than intelligent decision on my part if barrels aren't available to the customer. What I've been told from a local dealer, barrels are taking up to 6 months to ship from the plant. Is this true? If it's true, why the layoff? Share your thoughts please.

NoBull60

[Graybeard]

Worry not about barrels they are NOT in short supply. You can get most anything you might want here on the TC Classifieds and if not then check with GBO Sponsor Ed's TCs who perhaps has the largest TC inventory in the nation. If you can't find it at either then there are plenty of custom barrel makers in business to provide what you want. I think the Classifieds here and other places plus the after market barrel makers have about put TC out of the barrel business and that perhaps is why they aren't shipping. Well that plus they seem to be concentrating most of their efforts on muzzle loaders these days and the new bolt gun which seems to have flopped big time on them.

I believe they have forgotten and almost abandoned their core market and as a result are reaping the rewards of forgetting what got them where they are.

[Skunk]

What they ought to do is:

1.  Dump the stupid Icon that does nothing bunches of other good bolt action rifles do at much less cost.

That's about the only T/C I'd ever consider owning. This is just my opinion, and I know that it doesn't take away from the function of the other T/C products, but the rest of the T/C line (in my opinion) is just too plain butt ugly to own. If T/C sales are slipping, I can't help but think the looks of those rifles must have something to do with it. I'm not saying they are bad rifles, just that in my opinion they are as ugly as you could possibly get. Guess I just prefer the looks of a classic like the M70, M700, CZ550 American, or even the Savage. Some people claim that the Savage got hit with the ugly stick, but when it comes to those T/C Encores, it looks like they done got their @$$ whipped up and down the street about 35 times. However, I do respect any hunter that chooses to hunt with one. I'm sure that some folks feel they are the most handsome rifle out there, and I say more power to them for liking what they like.

[JON8777]

I believe they have forgotten and almost abandoned their core market and as a result are reaping the rewards of forgetting what got them where they are.

Economics 101-

If your company makes "widgets" stick with them, its when you change your efforts to making "door stops" and forget about the "widgets" you loose your client base. Theres nothing worng with adding a new line, just remeber where you came from.

[Ladobe]

What Bill said, although I have a slightly different opinion on some points.  Probably because I have been a loyal (some call it helplessly stricken) TC customer almost from the very start, and because until Ken left and Tim retired I had a good inside track on the whys and what fors at TC for decades.

As was said we will never run out of barrels.   Percentage wise a lot more folks use factory barrels than custom barrels, so there is an endless supply of them out there.   I've owned more than 200 Contender and Encore barrels over the last 40 years, but way more than half of them were factory production barrels even though I prefer 3rd party custom barrels (never owned one from their so called custom shop).   The resale of used barrels does cut into the sales of their new production barrels I'm sure, but IMO the custom barrel makers who jumped on the bandwagon almost from the start didn't hurt their business as much some might think it did.   

Same with the frames, it would be a very long time before we ran out of them even if the G2/Encore suddenly were no longer made.   As well as they are made, very few frames percentage wise have gone out of service in the last 40 years.   And with clowns like me who stockpiled them and is nearing the end of the trail, new supplies of used frames will always continue to come available.   

The muzzleloaders are a different story.   Those of us who started with their early sidelocks still shoot them.   Some of us, like me, wouldn't be caught dead with an in-line in his safe and won't hunt with somebody else carrying one.   But we are a fast dying breed.   The new generations of BP shooters place more importance on making meat than the tradition of primitive hunting, so lean to the ease and higher capabilities of the in-lines.   Can't fault them for that as it's personal choice.   With most in-lines being cheaper than the side locks also doesn't hurt either when it comes to making sales.   So I don't think TC can be blamed for their business decision to get on the in-line bandwagon.   Don't forget they also lost the tooling for some of their BP models in the plant fire (3/97) and decided the cost to retool wasn't justified with so many side lock sales being lost to in-lines.  Luckily their side locks were also so well made that their will be a supply of used ones for a very long time.

No doubt TC got on the map in the first place because of their Contender and traditional sidelock muzzleloaders.   And these lines along with their lifetime warranty were their bread and butter for the first 30 years or so.   The new product lines (to TC) are just a means to get a bigger piece of the firearms trade - a normal business practice.   I know the Classic (R55) was TC's attempt to compete with the Ruger 10/22 and I'd bet that is also the reason for them diving into the Icon.   I also think the increase in advertising was a business decision to increase sales in hard economic times.   With so many makers and models of firearms out there now they probably can't survive on just word of mouth advertising like they mostly did the early years with the Contender's and side locks.

Loosing TC would be another stab in the heart to American made firearms.  So I hope the rumors are just rumors and S&W doesn't close them down.

[trotterlg]

Looks like S&W is starting to dump their rifles at fire sale prices, I just bought a S&W I Bolt in 25-06 for $249.00 new in the box with a scope base from a major sporting store in WA state.  This has to be at a loss to them.  Larry

[bustedknee]

Hey teddy!  Read this before you buy any S&W stock.  I lost a bit of money on them.  I'm not happy with them.

I do love my TC products as well as my S&W products.  But the new (lock) S&W's stink.

I guess we can expect about anything from a company that operates like this.

http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/legal-services-litigation/5330117-1.html