Difference 44/40 & 44 mag

[aglass1987]

I know a 44/40 is a 44 caliber bullet(205gr) with 40 grains of black powder. my question is it a 44 mag casing. Are the casing the same between the two of them?? of is one bigger/smaller. Like is it possible to shoot a 44 mag/special in a rifle chambered for 44/40?

[mattmillerrx]

No it is not a .44 MAG case nor a .44 special case here is a little quik look at parent cases and size:

44-40:
Specifications
Parent case .44 Henry
Case type rimmed, bottlenecked
Bullet diameter .427 in (10.8 mm)
Neck diameter .443 in (11.3 mm)
Shoulder diameter .457 in (11.6 mm)
Base diameter .471 in (12.0 mm)
Rim diameter .525 in (13.3 mm)
Case length 1.310 in (33.3 mm)
Primer type Large pistol

.44 special:
Specifications
Parent case .44 Russian
Bullet diameter .432 in (11.0 mm)
Neck diameter .457 in (11.6 mm)
Base diameter .457 in (11.6 mm)
Rim diameter .514 in (13.1 mm)
Rim thickness .606 in (15.4 mm)
Case length 1.16 in (29 mm)
Overall length 1.615 in (41.0 mm)
Primer type Large pistol

.44 MAG:
Specifications
Parent case .44 Special
Bullet diameter .429 in (10.9 mm)
Neck diameter .457 in (11.6 mm)
Base diameter .457 in (11.6 mm)
Rim diameter .514 in (13.1 mm)
Rim thickness .060 in (1.5 mm)
Case length 1.285 in (32.6 mm)
Overall length 1.61 in (41 mm)
Rifling twist 1-38
Primer type Large pistol

[Graybeard]

Hmm dunno where that came from. The original Henry round was a rimfire not centerfire so it couldn't be the parent of any centerfire round.

I'm about 99.44% sure the parent case of the .44-40 is more or less the .45 Colt. I seem to recall both the .44-40 and .38-40 are merely necked down versions of the .45 Colt but with some what thiner case walls maybe so it's not just the case necked down exactly. In the movies they used five way blanks that fit all these rounds and a couple more I've forgotten as the basic case is the same for all.

[mattmillerrx]

I think you are right on on that GB. Wikipedia is where I got the info, not my favorite source but the liberal guys that run this place think they need to block about anything gun related so reference are limited.  I am lucky I can get on here at work.  The 44 henry is a rimfire for sure.

[ironglow]

  I also read somewhere the other day that as GB said, the 44-40 and the 38-40 were taken from the 45 LC. I wondered at the time what the advantage of the neck down would have been, but I presume this was done during the infancy of "wildcatting" cartridges.

[aglass1987]

the reason i asked is because i have heard of people loading a 44 mag with a 200/205gr bullet with black powder and others saying that they just loaded the 44/40.

[Sir Charles deMoutonBlack]

It is quite easy to load the .44 Rem Mag with black powder.  They won't interchange with .44-40, and they aren't convertible to .44-40, but they do have similar internal volumes.

Use the normal loading procedures for any black powder pistol cartridge.  Fill the case with enough powder to be compressed about 1/16th of an inch when the bullet is seated

For pistol use, wads are not needed, nor is excessive compression or the use of a drop tube.  Do use a black powder bullet lube like SPG , or Lyman BLACK GOLD.

[Graybeard]

the reason i asked is because i have heard of people loading a 44 mag with a 200/205gr bullet with black powder and others saying that they just loaded the 44/40.

They mean it is the ballistic equivilent of the .44-40 not that it is the .44-40.

[PlacitasSlim]

I believe the 44-40 and the Henry 44 are not the same rounds. The henry was underpowered and when Winchester came out with their 1873 they chambered it for a new round, the .44-40 that had decent power. It is a tapered case to function properly in a repeating rifle, so when you are resizing your cases, you must lube them as there are not carbide dies for this.

[apache235]

.44-40 was a completely new round when it was introduced 1873, the same year as the .45 Colt, they are very different rounds.  The .44 Henry was a rimfire, underpowered round first used in the original Henry rifle and far outclassed by the more powerful 56-56 Spencer.  The .44 Mag is Elmer Keith's gift to us based on a lengthened .44 Special and loaded to much higher pressures than ANY of the old guns could stand.  The .45 Colt was a military caliber whereas the .44-40 was civilian.  Colt produced SSA's in both calibers due to the demand from civilians for a rifle/pistol combination that fired the same ammunition.

[G Curtis]

The 44-40 and 38-40 were tapered to facilitate feeding and extraction in BP fouled chambers. Try that with a straight walled 45 colt and you will see why.

[blackhawk45]

Originally the 45 Colt was loaded with Black Powder !!!!!!!!

[G Curtis]

True, the 45 Colt was a black powder round but was not used in repeating rifles where it had to be inserted and extracted from the gun's only chamber. It was used primarily in revolvers where it stayed in the chamber it was loaded into by hand until removed by hand. It was only quite recently that it was chambered in lever action and slide action rifles. It was not orignally chambered in the Colt Lightning pump action rifle which were chambered in 38-40, 44-40 and 32-20.

[Bart Solo]

Originally the 45 Colt was loaded with Black Powder !!!!!!!!

So was the 44-40. My brother and I once owned an original 1873 Winchester in 44-40.  A local gunsmith told us that the old rifle really couldn't stand the pressures associated with modern smokeless powder and that we should either use black powder or  light smokeless loads.  We were young and stupid and traded it for some kind of Ruger handgun.  My brother was told by a collector last month that our old gun is now worth over 20K.   

The 44-40 was a popular civilian rifle cartridge developed independently of the 45 Colt. The shape of 45 Colt did not allow it to be used as a repeating rifle cartridge until a slight redesign sometime later facilitated easy extraction.  Frontier types didn't like carrying two different cartridges so the Colt chambered its SAA for the 44-40.  It  became a popular pistol cartridge for folks who spent a lot of time on the trail.  Folks who shoot repeating rifles chambered in 45 Colt in SAA competition aren't really authentic to the old west of the 1870s and 1880s, but who cares, they are close, are having a good time, and are legal under the rules. If somebody in either the Army or the Colt plant had spent a little time in the early 1870s worrying about extraction from one of those new fangled repeating rifles the 45 Colt would have been designed properly in the first place.

As indicated above neither the 44-40 nor the 45 Colt had anything to do with the development of 44 Mag which is a derivative of the 44 Special which was itself a derivative of the 44 Russian.

UPDATE: I have just read an article suggesting that Colt refused to allow any rifle manufacturer to chamber a repeater in its patented 45 Colt.  By the time the patent expired more modern rifle cartridges had been developed rendering rifle development of the 45 Colt uneconomical until the rise of Cowboy Shooting. If so Colt management was very short sighted.