Author Topic: SWC myths  (Read 5432 times)

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Offline Veral

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SWC myths
« on: October 10, 2008, 06:10:26 PM »
  In a recent Handloader article, Brian Pearce wrote up an article praising SWC's and poo-pooing the "supposed advantage" of large flatnosed bullets.  -- Since only one person company has designed the  WFN, WLN bullets, I somewhat took it on the chin, for myself and LBT! (Before LBT, it seemed that every other gun rag dealing with handguns had writing about how the SWC shoulder was responsible for wound diameter of SWC bullets.  Such writing was theory and it vanished instantly when I proved the truth to the world.)

  All of you who have used wide nosed handgun bullets would know his artical was axe grinding, but those who haven't could easily be miss informed by the wrong information, or outright lies he told, as the case may be.  He tested inked SWC bullets in sand, which showed abrasion on the SWC shoulder, and said this proved that the shoulder cuts in flesh.  Not so.  In flesh, the tissue is turned to liquid which sprays off the meplat, and this spray is what makes a wound larger than the meplat, or mushroom of an expanded rifle bullet.  No test in sand has any meaning so far as game performance. -- I think about 25 years ago I tested SWC bullets in gelatin with a small amount of sand mixed in.  I inked the shoulder to see if any sand hit or abraided it.  It doesn't at all if the bullet is traveling at a good speed when it exits the geletin, which is what they MUST be doing on game to get really effective killing punch.   If the bullet comes to a complete stop in the test media, the spray quits just before it stops and some abrasion can occure. Another test I did was to cut the shoulder off the SWC's, at a steep angle, and test them in wet paper.  The 'wound channel' was exactly the same diameter as if the shoulders were square.  Another test, which I don't believe I ever told the world was to make up a mold with a spitzer point and SWC shoulder.  It wounded the same size as a full wadcutter, but wouldn't penetrate straight, so it was forgotten, so far as production.  With the point, tissue simply slides along the ogive till it hits the shoulder, which sprays everything hit by the bullets full caliber, straight out sideways, just as if the bullet were completely flat.  Also, not give too much ink, was the fact that in my testing of meplat and ogive shapes, I made over 30 different shapes of nose, or meplat, to see what happened when they hit wet paper.  This wasn't a lengthy test, as the bullet noses were simply turned on a lathe.  However, it was VERY informative, and I no longer have ANY questions about what the meplat or nose shape has to do with performance.

  About Brians statement, "supposed advantage" of wide meplats.  -- I wonder if he would chirp that statement about Winchesters Supreme bullets?  Understand that Winchester spent a HUGE sum of money developing bullets which lose no weight while giving positive expansion but to a much smaller diameter than conventional mushrooms. (The sharp edged petals are in effect a smaller diameter mushroom than the same diameter with all frontal area filled in.)  The 4 sharp edged petals cut a much smaller wound than does a conventional mushroom, and 100% weight retention insures DEEP penetration with a far more effective wound diameter than is produced with conventional double diameter mushrooms.  I'm sure if you were to ask, Winchester wasn't "supposing" there was an advantage!

  The line of LBT cast bullets, in large caliber handguns and rifles, give a type of performance, or wounding, very similar to the Winchester Supreme bullets.  SWC's can't stand in the shadows if the meplat is smaller. -  So whether Brian was writing in ignorance, or outright lying, or both, perhaps you might want to think about wasting your time reading whenever you see his articals in the future. -- May I add.  Brian is the ONLY person who has refuted what I wrote about SWC's and my bullet designs well over 20 years ago!  He didn't mention my kill formula, which I call Displacement Velocity, per se, though his article did refute it in essence with his 'supposed advantage' statement.   I have been questioned by one gun writer, but when I sent him molds he was totally convinced and has never looked back.   If you have questions regarding this matter, ask and I'll give you scientific proof, or ask anyone who has hit game with my bullets and they will give you REAL scientific proof.  The proof is in the pudding, which is made when the bullet hits flesh! ;)  And when there is no tracking to recover game, the shooter gets hardnosed in his beliefs!
Veral Smith

Offline 30hrrtt

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2008, 06:42:45 PM »
I read that article when it first came out.  I also believe he mentioned swc recovered from game with worn shoulders.  I think you hit it when you talked about velocity for performance with a swc.  I would think that even in sand, the shoulders would not be worn, UNTIL AFTER THE BULLET HAS SLOWED, and the sand is no longer pushed away like in a fluid.  Even in game, if the bullet has been recovered, it has slowed down enough not to push the material away from the bullet.  The first part of the wound would be larger than bullet size.  As it slows, it does not push the mass away and it rubs the shoulder.

If it hits bone, the shoulder would obviously be put to work.

An interresting question would be at what velocity does a swc not make a larger than caliber hole in flesh.  Or should the question be larger than metpla.

I don't doubt his results.  I kind of question the conclusions he has drawn from them.

Offline fowler

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2008, 06:21:05 AM »
Something to remember about Pierce is that he is a "disciple" of Elmer Keith and so he likes the old Keith designs, also he preaches about the RCBS 45-27-SAA mold on a ongoing basis. It is a fine bullet and I have that mold (although I just got it so I have not tested any loads with it yet) but it was designed by his boss Dave Scoville, so he could be kissing ass here. His test medium was poorly designed at best and most likely worthless for any value in the real world. As Lloyd said you will never be able to tell the difference on game. Brian's articles are enjoyable to read but have very little "new" knowledge or information in them that was not spoken 25 years ago by Keith, Jordan, and/or Seyfried.


Offline GradyL41

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2008, 06:02:42 PM »
I really like my Keith but here are two deer kills -226 Lyman 410459 at 1200-- entrance about cal. size- in heart about thumb size--around .70" or so--exit cal size dead deer after short  run
LBT 230 LWNGC at 1360- woounded doe one (no I did not wound her) shot into the forward hip area -- as she was looking at me and moved- the wound curled out back  no in -- did not measue but thumb size .80-.85 at 40 yards -- finally got a shot at her broadside and she went down  --the holes with the LBT were noticabally larger -- I like both bullets but the LBT should be the better  killer becasue of the larger holes

Offline cinosbus

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2008, 04:44:51 PM »
If your experience with the 270-SAA is anything like mine, you won't have it long... but it could have just been my picky gun too. Some people I've spoken with say it shoots pretty well for them.

My biggest grip was that it took RCBS 3 tries to get one that made round bullets that were similar in diameter from each cavity (they admitted a fixture problem), and the "good one" still wouldn't make bullets that shot up to par with store bought Cast Performance copies of Veral's stuff.

I would imagine I wasted somewhere near the cost of a new LBT 4 cavity Mould in shipping (back to RCBS), powder, lead, primers, time, lube, gasoline and aggravation on the 270-SAA.

I just emailed Veral about one of his sale moulds for my .45LC...  ;)

Offline cinosbus

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2008, 04:46:54 PM »
And on Brian Pierce, he may not be perfect, but he is usually readable, which is more than I can say for a lot of "gunwriters".

Of course he is no Seyfried...

Be careful with his load data..... I've seen some stuff that was way above what the books call out, FWIW.

Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 07:31:12 AM »
Amen, Lloyd.  DP
RIP Oct 27, 2017

Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline fowler

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 02:50:58 PM »
Lloyd, as always you are a wise man. The internet is a great source for suspect information, but I have always found your information to be well grounded and for me at least, hard to disprove. I think Veral is a little too sure of himself at times but his molds are the easiest casting molds I have ever tried. Lately the RCBS molds I have been using have been giving me some real headaches trying to get the bases to fill out, and yet I struggle to make a bad bullet in a LBT mold. In fact I ordered a new 475 mold today on his sale for a 350gr to 375gr Keith or LFN, whatever he wanted to make that he thought would be most accurate at slower velocities, you know what I bet it is a winner when I get it. I also bet he sends a 370gr LFNPB but I could be surprised

I tried to get light LFN bullets to shoot well but it just doesn't seem to work for me. I had a buddies 250gr .453 mold gas checked mold and cast a pile of bullets as it was just a loaner. Much to my dismay that bullet does not want to run, I have run it from 750fps to 1500fps and I have yet to find a accurate load beyond 25 yards. LLoyd told me it would not work very well (Dustin Linebaugh told me WFN stood for Won't Fly No good). Now I have had good success with 300gr WFNGC bullets but not as good of success as I have had with 335gr LFNGC, the best bullet I have ever shot, bar none. As far as the 45-270-SAA Glenn Swaggart and I were talking about the bullet and I said it was one I wanted to try one of these days. So he finds a used one on the internet and sends it to me (heck it might have been new but it was 100% condition) so we could "test it together". So I will tinker with it because I tinker a lot and if I like it I will shoot it a lot, it not well it was free and what the heck. But I am certain I will learn something so it is worth trying to me.

I am one of those that has to try things for myself to learn, sometimes I fly and sometimes I crash and burn, but I will keep trying and see what happens.

Ask me in 10 days how my 335gr LFNGC works on elk, hopefully I will have a better answer than I do today....

Offline TommyD

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2008, 11:52:34 PM »
In my opinion veral has brought one thing to the table that is probably the best thing that ever happened to cast bullet shooting and that is the lfn. Sure i like keith bullets and like brian im a deciple of elmer and his teachings but i dont think you will find a single experience bullet caster and shooter that wont tell you that the lfn is hands down the easiest bullet to work with. It is just as effective on game as any bullet made out of lead and is hands down the easiest bullet to get to shoot in most guns and hands down the most accuarte long range bullet design. 

Amen on the LFN. I have 3 of the .45 cal LFN molds, and they all outshoot anything else I have tried in their respective weight classes. The 230, 260, and 320 are all masterpieces. Especially the 260. It doesn't even need a gas check to shoot accurately.

I was out shooting this weekend with my Ruger Super Redhawk. A big clunky revolver built like a steam locomotive. "As is" out of the box with the only addition being a 2x Leupold scope. 260 LFN bevel base bullet. Starline 45 Colt brass. CCI 300 primers. And a load of H110 that gives 1180 fps.

I set up my pepper popper at 100 yards (a measured 300 feet) and found I could "ding" it all day long with a solid rest for my revolver. Shot after shot after shot. Any misses I had were clearly my own fault.

I haven't been able to figure out to post pictures here, but below is a link to my web page with a photo of a typical 5 shot group. It fits in a 4x4 box with 5 inches between the two most widely separated hits.
I must say I find this particular bullet entirely satisfactory.
http://homepage.mac.com/paradigm1/260LFN.jpg

Tom





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Offline cinosbus

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2008, 07:37:10 AM »
As far as the 45-270-SAA Glenn Swaggart and I were talking about the bullet and I said it was one I wanted to try one of these days. So he finds a used one on the internet and sends it to me (heck it might have been new but it was 100% condition) so we could "test it together". So I will tinker with it because I tinker a lot and if I like it I will shoot it a lot, it not well it was free and what the heck. But I am certain I will learn something so it is worth trying to me.

Such a small world. That is my old mould  ;D

It casts a good looking bullet that is round and true, it just wouldn't shoot for me in my gun. I'll be interested to hear what you two find in your guns.

My gun LOVES the 335WLNGC too. Mine are store bought from CP and I haven't found anything yet that will outshoot them. Veral is sending me #128 off his sale list and we'll see how that does. It's a .4525" 300gr WFNGC 2 cav.

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2008, 12:38:41 AM »
heres some more of my experiences that you can take for what you want. Ive have stuggled for years trying to find an accuarte 240-255 grain bullet that would shoot well in the .45 colt. Ive owned and tried about every bullet design and ever variation of it that i could lay my hands on and have yet to find one im happy with. Ive got a couple that do well in certain guns at short ranges but those bullets do not fly at long range. Ive got a couple that seem to hold whatever accuracy they have at long range but just arent tack drivers at any range. Ive come to the conclusion that theres just something working against the deal. I dont know if its that the 45 with bullets that light has just to poor of a sectional density or that making a bullet that short is just not going to stabilize that well. I shake my head at it because it isnt hard to accomplish those goals with a 44. I thought it was a swc bullet thing but in the last couple years have picked up a couple lfns in that weight includeing a 260 lfngc lbt mold and they are just as finiky. Now to be fair i havent sat and tried every powder and primmer combo possible and vaired the test with every alloy possible but ive given it more of an efford in all of those catagorys then most would have and have yet to find that majic bullet. Like i said ive got a couple guns that will shoot a couple loads with some of those bullets fair but never anything exceptional that id say would be a bullet id recomend you go out and buy.  thing is if you look at the big picture maybe im spinning my wheels for nothing. Ive taken quite a few deer with 250-255 grain 45 bullets run at 900 fps. Most of those loads would probably shoot into say 2 inches at 25 yards. Not a tack driver by a long shot but in the game field with a load like that its plenty of accuracy to take care of business. If a guy needs more of a load for his hunting then that he is no doubt hunting bigger animals and that means bigger targets. Now when it comes to bullets for the 45 colt and 454 and 460 that go 300 grain or more i can make a list of good molds for you. Bullets that shoot well both up close and out far and do it at a 1000 fps and still at 1500 fps and do it in a varity of guns. some of my favorites are verals 300 and 320 lfns the rcbs 300 swcgc (probably my all time favorite 45 bullet). the ballistic cast 320 and 350 lfngc Rob applegates 320 and 350 lfngc and probably a few more im leaving out. these are all fine bullets that dont take alot of load development to get to shoot well in a varity of my guns. Ive shared these thoughts with many handgunners that i have alot of respect for and ive yet to find one that when pushed against the wall doesnt agree with me. Its gotten to the point that other then in smiths and small framed rugers i dont even bother trying lighter bullets anymore in the 45s. Ive got enough 44s to scratch that itch anyway.
Lloyd, as always you are a wise man. The internet is a great source for suspect information, but I have always found your information to be well grounded and for me at least, hard to disprove. I think Veral is a little too sure of himself at times but his molds are the easiest casting molds I have ever tried. Lately the RCBS molds I have been using have been giving me some real headaches trying to get the bases to fill out, and yet I struggle to make a bad bullet in a LBT mold. In fact I ordered a new 475 mold today on his sale for a 350gr to 375gr Keith or LFN, whatever he wanted to make that he thought would be most accurate at slower velocities, you know what I bet it is a winner when I get it. I also bet he sends a 370gr LFNPB but I could be surprised

I tried to get light LFN bullets to shoot well but it just doesn't seem to work for me. I had a buddies 250gr .453 mold gas checked mold and cast a pile of bullets as it was just a loaner. Much to my dismay that bullet does not want to run, I have run it from 750fps to 1500fps and I have yet to find a accurate load beyond 25 yards. LLoyd told me it would not work very well (Dustin Linebaugh told me WFN stood for Won't Fly No good). Now I have had good success with 300gr WFNGC bullets but not as good of success as I have had with 335gr LFNGC, the best bullet I have ever shot, bar none. As far as the 45-270-SAA Glenn Swaggart and I were talking about the bullet and I said it was one I wanted to try one of these days. So he finds a used one on the internet and sends it to me (heck it might have been new but it was 100% condition) so we could "test it together". So I will tinker with it because I tinker a lot and if I like it I will shoot it a lot, it not well it was free and what the heck. But I am certain I will learn something so it is worth trying to me.

I am one of those that has to try things for myself to learn, sometimes I fly and sometimes I crash and burn, but I will keep trying and see what happens.

Ask me in 10 days how my 335gr LFNGC works on elk, hopefully I will have a better answer than I do today....
blue lives matter

Offline EdK

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2008, 02:31:20 AM »
Those of you speaking of WFNs being no good for long range, would you quantify that? If you're talking ringing a gong or busting rocks at 300 yards that means one thing to me. If you mean to say they are inaccurate at 25, 50, 75 yards that's another - and that hasn't been my experience. I don't take shots on game with a revolver at ranges the legendary Elmer Keith has and never will. I value a revolver bullet with a combination of good accuracy and killing ability inside 100yds. If it "Won't Fly Nowhere" past 100 I can deal with that. If the most accurate bullet for 300 yards is something else, be it a SWC or spitzer, I'd be willing to use it. Having a couple of molds is no big deal.

I guess I don't really see the need to have a revolver bullet with top killing ability and long-range (e.g. 300yd) accuracy. If some folks do, that's fine but I don't see how it could matter to 99% of handgun hunters. Don't take that as slob hunters either - very few people could ever ethically take 100+ yard shots on game with an iron sighted revolver - no matter how much they practiced.

Online Graybeard

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2008, 02:48:21 AM »
The fact of the matter is that no matter the design a .45 caliber bullet weighting no more than 250 grains or so is really short and fat. Pushed to only about 1000 fps or a tad more they just are not going to stabilize to a point for long range shooting and are best confined to under 100 yards. Even pushed to 1500 fps or more their short fat shape causes them to lose velocity really quickly and thus destabilize at longer ranges. They just don't have the BC to maintain velocity thus stability at longer ranges.

They work just fine to 100 yards or so but just peter out beyond that and I don't think there is a design that can change that as there just isn't enough length to remain stable a lot further.

Even my 325 grain bullets from my Lyman 452651 mould don't look very long to me but they have shown great stability at long range when pushed to 1550 fps in .454 Casull revolvers. Now I've not had occasion to shoot them much past 400 yards but to that range they seem to hold accuracy well.

Just what weight range (actually has more to do with length but more weight means longer length) it takes in .452" bullets for long range stability I dunno. I really like Veral's LFN in the 330-340 grain range for accuracy and stability in the Casull but for me at least that's a bit much for the .45 Colt. When I shoot the .45 Colt I want a mild recoiling pleasant to shoot gun not a fire breather. If I want that I'll go to the Casull or larger.


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Offline cinosbus

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2008, 05:13:29 AM »
I wonder if this is why the FA 83 has slower twist than the Rugers?

Lloyd, you're not giving me a whole lot of hope of finding a 250gr or so bullet...

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2008, 09:12:24 AM »
300 yards is where long range shooting begins for me. Most wfns will give great  results at out to a 100 yards so there fine for any  hunting situation  and some will hold up to 300 but ive yet to find one that went much past that. Problem is the light wfns suffer the same traits the other 250 class 45 bullets have.  Bill is probably right about the fact there just to short. Sectional density is pour with them. LIke i said in my earlier post most bullets 300 grain and heavier tend to fly much better.
Those of you speaking of WFNs being no good for long range, would you quantify that? If you're talking ringing a gong or busting rocks at 300 yards that means one thing to me. If you mean to say they are inaccurate at 25, 50, 75 yards that's another - and that hasn't been my experience. I don't take shots on game with a revolver at ranges the legendary Elmer Keith has and never will. I value a revolver bullet with a combination of good accuracy and killing ability inside 100yds. If it "Won't Fly Nowhere" past 100 I can deal with that. If the most accurate bullet for 300 yards is something else, be it a SWC or spitzer, I'd be willing to use it. Having a couple of molds is no big deal.

I guess I don't really see the need to have a revolver bullet with top killing ability and long-range (e.g. 300yd) accuracy. If some folks do, that's fine but I don't see how it could matter to 99% of handgun hunters. Don't take that as slob hunters either - very few people could ever ethically take 100+ yard shots on game with an iron sighted revolver - no matter how much they practiced.
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Offline Boxhead

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2008, 04:56:25 AM »
I recall an article that Ross Seyfried wrote many years ago that exactly countered everything that Brian wrote and his tests seemed to be pretty valid to me.

Offline EdK

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2008, 08:27:59 AM »
Interesting to get your thoughts Lloyd as I've noted your strong preference for LFNs over WFNs. Understanding your context now as 300yds at least - maybe more, brings it into a whole new light. I prefer the WFN as I mentioned for open sighted revolver hunting at less than 100yds with the thought in mind that with a non-expanding cast bullet I'm after all the wound channel I can get. For this I'm willing to sacrifice accuracy/stability over 100yds if I have to (although I don't even shoot that far to know).

This is where I see the WFNs' advantage over SWCs. Do I still shoot SWCs? Sure I do as a great multi-purpose bullet style. On the other hand, if I was going to refine a skill of shooting at 300+yds at inanimate objects (for sport), who cares what the nose profile is? The bullet with the best ballistic coefficient is what I'd shoot.

Of course, if one is trying a Keith elk shot at 500yds then my thinking falls apart.  ;D

Offline TEXXAS

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2008, 01:48:58 PM »
When I got my 500 Linebaugh I asked alot of people for advice and did alot of research on bullets and loads. Then I went out and tested everything I could. It only took 3,000 rounds to learn what I wanted to know. I tested.

LFN-GC, LFN-PB, WFN-PB, WFN-GC, LWN-PB, & SWC-PB/K.

HS-6, H-110, 2400, TrailBoss, LilGun, 4227, Unique, BlueDot, & AA NO9.

LBT Blue Soft, Red Rooster, Alox and Javelna.

WW, Lino, 50/50 WW & Lino, Lyman #2.

CCI-350, Win LP, Fed LP Mag, & Rem

After testing I found out that just what was most reccomended was very close to what worked for me.
I shoot alot out to 300 yards and sometimes out to 500. For me and my gun I use.

440 gr - LBT LFN-GC
50/50 WW/LINO
LBT Blue Soft
24gr of 2400
CCI-350,   Win LP will work just as well with less pressure. (I have 3K CCI-350s to use up first)
Starline Brass

I get 1,150 FPS from a 5 1/2" barrel. It will shoot a mesured 5/8" at 25 yards when I am having a good day and about one foot at 300 yards when I'm lucky.

Except for the powder my load is just about what was reccomended by alot of good shooters. Veral, John Linebaugh, Lloyd, and a few more. I was a little surprised at this. To test "common knowlege" is something I do, and I most often find answers that contridict so called "common knowlege".

TEXXAS/Chad

Offline cinosbus

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2008, 05:01:32 AM »
I recall an article that Ross Seyfried wrote many years ago that exactly countered everything that Brian wrote and his tests seemed to be pretty valid to me.

Me too. Animals are not made of sand.


Offline Veral

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2008, 12:01:03 PM »
  Wow!  I had no idea I would get this sort of feed back when I wrote the intital post! -  I'm going to say a word or two about three factors which seem to have come up often.

  One of the more interesting statements had to do with my confidence in how I talk.  --  I've been in the mold making business for 27 years and one thing I do above all else is listen to my customers.  If they don't like what I sell or say, they won't be back, and I won't be making molds.

  When I'm asked about which mold will be best I try to get a good feel of what the customer wants to do with it.  If he wants to shoot at long range a lot, WITH A REVOLVER, I alway recommend a heavyweight LFN.  If he is a hunter pretty much confined to the US I recommend the WFN in a moderate weight, but never the lighter weights, and don't load to max, as hitting is more important than power.  If he wants to take on the largest animals, and especially defend himself againt them, I recommend a fairly heavy WFN, or possibley the WLN, if the caliber is 45 and smaller. - Pleased customers who have used them at ranges of a few feet and walked away without a scratch have formed my opinions on these.

  I find that many large bore revolver owners, and I'm speaking of 45 and larger, want light bullets to minimize recoil, and I make them of coarse.  They are what is needed to develop a feel for, and conficence with the guns, but they aren't good long range hunting bullets.

  As for my writing that would probably make most people consider me a SWC hater, understand that I can make them just as easy as my own designs, and I rather enjoy the looks of them.  They are not inferior killers to my LFN design, but are identical if the meplat diameters and impact velocity are the same.  In 44 cal and larger, most SWC's are very adaquate game killers IF THE SHOT IS PLACED THROUGH THE VITALS!  In fact they may kill just as quick as a WFN at the same speed, but probably won't.  If they DON't hit the major vitals a small meplat definately will not kill as quick as a wider one!   Now, if I were to give an opinion as to the ability of ALL my customers to hit every animal perfectly every time, I would say, tain't likely.  In fact MANY don't even know where the best place to place a bullet is, if they have no experiance yet, and with the very best shooter in the world, things go wrong.  That's why we buy insurance.  For the revolver hunter I don't believe he can buy better than a wide meplate.  If you are hooked on the looks of SWC's, just be sure it wears a wide meplate,  if you want the insurance.  -- My most negative things about SWC's are the fact that to get top accuracy, they must be cast with better fillout than with the forms of my design, and because most of my customers use WW alloy most of the time, the SWC is harder to cast with top quality.  If max power is wanted, the SWC by design puts more lead into the available powder space, which reduces max power potential at any given pressure level.

  With calibers under 44, meplat size becomes a major factor in getting good game performance, which knocks out most SWC designs, AND my LFN.

  I'm fully aware that a large hole isn't mandatory to getting decently quick kills.  The last deer I shot with a 22 LR (a long time ago) was hit just above the heart and traveled only 40 yeads or so.  But that certainly doesn't make the 22 LR a deer cartridge.  And, though I found it a simple task to track the animal, many hunters don't have the ability, and in thick brush, a 40 yard run can often mean a lost animal.  ---- I do my best to recommend bullets, loads etc that will anchor the game of interest quick enough that as many decently hit animals as possible go down in sight of the hunter.  Let the coyotes and ravens find their eating somewhere else.

Veral Smith

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2008, 03:32:06 PM »
only argument ill make to your post is that a wfn is superior to a lfn with a marginal hit. NO BULLET will make up for a marginal hit. Ive seen deer hit with 300 and 338 mags that didnt do it so how could a slightly larger metplat on a slow moving cast bullet do it. I guess my thoughts are that im going to get the best penetration with a slightly smaller metplat. Sure it doesnt matter much on deer but them ive put down deer black bear and hogs that were wounded with shots from every angle. By the way none originaly shot by me. One i shot up the rump with a 500 linebaugh had the bullet exit the chest.   Bullet was a lfn cast out of a lbt mold. Im sure a wfn out of a gun like that would have too but if you get down into smaller bores like the 41 and 44 that much penetration can be iffy and if you step up to a bear or boar it surely can and i want any advantage i can get. Bottom line is a properly hit animal that has a 41 caliber or bigger hole through the vitals isnt going far and to judge how much faster a differnt bullet design does it is about impossible. You could hit 10 deer in the same spot with the same bullet and load and they wouldnt react the same. Ive dumped deer in there tracks with a 41 mag and 44 mag and have had deer hit in the vitals with a 500 linebaugh that went 200 yards before dieing. Does that make the 44 a better killer then the 500. If a guy would have only shot those two animals he would come to that conclusion. Bottom line is there is a multitude of theroys on  measuring the power and killing ability of guns and some are better then others but bottom line is there all theroys. The education needed is not in what bullet you select, especially in deer hunt, as any bullet even one of those funny looking copper ones that greaybeard likes, will kill a deer easily. What needs to be taught to beginnng handgunners is the same thing that has been preached to bow hunters for years. Your hunting with a weapon that has limitations. You OWE it to the game animal to NEVER take a shot that is even remotely chancy. If this isnt you then no bullet is a majic pill thats going to bail you out and no combination of velocity bullet weight or ft lbs of energy is going to make for your stupidity.
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Offline wonderer

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2008, 07:35:47 AM »
Well, I'm no expert and have never claimed to be.  I can say that Veral comes across knowledgeable and confident but, in my reading of his posts, he is not arrogant, smug or superior.  I can't say that I believe in his extreme weather and mind control postings but I think that everyone in the industry accepts him as one of the true experts in the field of cast bullets. 
Now I enjoy Brian Pierce as a writer...not one of my favorites but I enjoy him.  I read his article and what I got was that we should not abandon an older design just because something new comes up.  I also found his shooting the bullets into sand less than informing and unscientific.  Kieth styles bullets are good performers in the field and have a long track record.  I think that the larger meplat is the biggest key (not the only key) for killing power at handgun velocities and WFN LBT bullets have larger meplats than Kieth SWC bullets.  I doubt that Mr. Pierce was trying to cause offense and was more likely scrounging for an idea for an article.  These guys write for several magazines and have been doing it for years and new ideas must be hard to come by.  I don't think it does anyone any good to question someones integrity and accuse them of lying.  There is room for differing opinions.  I was not impressed with this Brian Pierce article and thought it was a quickly cobbled together piece with poor research but I don't think he was lying. 
Maybe there is room for Ford guys and Chevy guys in the cast bullet world?  I personally like lots of options.


Offline crabo

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2008, 02:56:20 AM »
Here's an interesting tidbit which may not have anything to do with anything but, I have noticed that the wfn bullets from the molds that I just got from Veral, produce cleaner rounder holes in my copier paper targets than do the 250K swc in my 44.

The swc tears the paper as it pushes through and leaves ragged holes, and the LBT wfn punches round clean holes like a hole punch.  Velocity and powder charges are very close to the same.

Like I said, may not mean anything, and probably doesn't, but interesting.

Offline docmagnum357

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2008, 07:40:48 AM »
It's kind of off the subject, and i am no expert, but I think that the longer the bearing surface on a bullet, the easier it is to get to shoot accurately.  Also, heavier weight bullets seem to burn powder more completely, for me anyway.  I learned that a wide metplat bullet was a deadly game kiler when I was 14 or 15 years old.
  I would cut the round part off a .22 long rifle bullet, making, essentially, a wfn or lfn bullet.  The would hammer rabbits and squirrels a lot harder than even hollowpoints.  Wadcutters in a >32 or .38 are excellent game bullets for small game. 

I am kinf of a one gun, one bullet, one load guy.  I have pretty much settled on a 310 grain Lee flat nose, which appears to me to be basically a rip off of a wide flat nose.  I may well switch to a 280 grain wide flat nose for the extra velocity, and for the excellent quality of Veral's molds.  But I can say with authority that the Lee bullet will hit deer with quite a lot of "smack" at even 100 yards.  Muzzle velocity of about 1100 feet per second with 2400 is a pretty mild, and very accurate load.

Offline Veral

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2008, 07:43:46 PM »
  Lloyds statement that no bullet will make up for marginal hits is partly true, but entirely wrong.  We can't make up for a marginal hit, but high blood flow from just a muscle wound will put an animal down fairly quick.  The problem with magnum rifle comparisons, or even 500 Linebaugh comparisons is in the fact that when wound diameter gets too large high speed blood clotting agents are released, which slow the bleeding dramatically and almost instantly.  This is where the JUST RIGHT   DV (displacement velocity) of my formula, comes into play.  Handgunners are running wild with getting maximum meplat coupled to maximum power, and they don't go together.  My Displacement Velocity formula is not a theory but a simple caluclation which gives a fairly accurate measurement on wound diameter, which is relative of coarse.  A bullet which wounds 1 1/4 inch diameter through the vitals and the softer muscle tissue will only punch a tiny hole through the neck muscle and cords.

  It makes no difference whether the bullet has a SWC shoulder or not.  Meplat size is what splashes destroyed tissue out of the bullets path.

  As for the WFN having inferior penetration.  I'd appreciate it if all who think it doesn't dig deep would test it to see what the difference in before giving opinons.  In tests with a 44 magnum and 300 gr LFN and WFN both driven to the same velocity, the hole in wet paper was about 4 inches less with the WFN than the LFN, with the LFN going something like 55 inches in a dead straight line.  But the WFN was wounding approximately twice the diameter all the way.         Make up your own mind on which bullet you want to hit your next deer with.

  The first year I started making molds an Alaskan customer who bought the 300 gr LFN in 44, shot both a moose and a large brown bear from but to chest and reported a one inch exit hole on both. This in the muscle at exit, not the skin, which only gets about a bullet size hole.  Both animals dropped in their tracks.  A WFN would quite certainly have made it full length just as well as the LFN was still traveling at a speed to create the one inch wound, which would be close to 1100 or 1200 fps when it exited.  He started them at 1450 fps as I recall.

  I have listened and read many thousands of kill reports on game up to elephant, and listen close to what my customers say.  I'm not about to change my opinions, as it took a lot of field data from others to form them!
Veral Smith

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2008, 01:22:17 AM »
I guess we will have to agree and disagree on a few points veral. First i post only on what my experiences and a few experiences of my close friends that i can personaly witness are. Storys get changed and exagerated and if i dont actually see it i dont take it for fact. In wet print wfns do not penetrate much less then lfns but they do a little and if you use a more realistic penetration media the gap widens. We shot into first bone before wet print. Idealy what we set up is about an inch of wet print followed by a shoulder bone of a cow or buffalo followed by more wet print. This in my opinion more closely replicates an animal. The first layer represents the hide followed by bone then into the wet print again which would be the body. Wfns tend to slow down appreciably more in a test like this. I will never say they slow down enough to make the differnce in a kill or a wounded animal but if your looking for any advantage the lfn is definately a better performing bullet. As to making to big of a hole ill agree and disagree. I think your point is absoulutly correct if your comparing a wound channel of a cast bullet to the wound channel of a jacketed high velocity bullet. But id dont agree with a 44 bullet making a quicker kill then a 500 bullet. Ive just seen to many animals killed by both and have watched garden hose size blood leaks from animals shot with 475s and 500s. Would the animal of died slower with a 44 i dont know. that is impossible to measure as no two animals die the same but in my experience id have to doubt it. If so theres a lot of guys hunting dangerous game with handguns and rifles that are making a big mistake.
   I think what is getting overlooked her by everyone including me is that the average hunter is only going to use a handgun on a deer or maybe a black bear and neigher are hard to kill. Any cast bullet of the appropriate caliber in any of the designs mentioned will do the job just fine on an animal like that. Personaly when the animal gets over 500 lbs or is large boned i want every advantage in penetration i can get. Why? because i want my bullet to reach the vitals. I also dont agree with veral that a muscle hit will quickly kill ANY animal. A bullet to kill quickly has to do one of two things. Hit the vitals or cut a major blood vessel or artery to stop the flow of blood to the brain or severe a nerve that causes paralization.  A muscle hit that doesnt include a major artery will not shut down an animal quickly no matter what bullet you hit it with. How many here have shot an animal in the front or hind leg and followed a blood trail for miles and thought my God this animal should have bled out by now. An animal can dump alot of blood out of a muscle hit and keep on going. Cut the blood flow of to the brain for even a minute and the animal is dead.
    Keep in mind that these are only my opinions. Opinions that ive gotten from my field experience and many hunters have killed much more game then i have and like veral have there opionions. Who is right? Probabaly both and niether. Theres just to many vairables involved. This is verals fourm though and for that reason ill put my argument to rest as i dont want to cause any conflict. I know veral is a knowlegable man and i respect his opinions and experiences and what were talking here is spliting hairs and his ideas will work. Whether they are  the last word on the subject is debateable but then either are mine.
   
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Offline John R.

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2008, 10:38:59 AM »
I measured the meplat on a 270 gr. SAA against a 300 gr. LFN and they were the same, so I loaded up some of the SAA's with H4227 to  a moderate speed of 1050 fps. I killed a 200 lb. boar hog this weekend. I hit the hog right behind the front shoulder and the bullet naturally sailed right through him. It was almost dark when I shot and I meant to hit him through the front shoulders. I hit him a little high and he ran about a 100 yds before he piled up. I thought the bullet worked pretty good considering I didn't make a perfect shot.

Offline Veral

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2008, 08:11:19 PM »
  John,  Your bullet did an excellent job for the low velocity.  An LFN would have done the same thing.

  Lloyd.  Please get one thing straight.  I never said an animal hit only in muscle would die as quickly as one hit through the vitals.  What I said was that with the proper displacement velocity, the wound through muscle will be nearly as large as through the vital organs, and will cause rapid bleeding, more rapid than if hit with a high velocity rifle in most cases, and for sure, far more rapid than if hit with a bullet that wounds with a smaller diameter hole.  The large diameter FAST BLEEDING wound will make recovery of the animal far more likely.  I have hit a couple through the ham muscle only and saw them just lay down and stay there.  Never have I seen this with high velocity explosive wounds, nor with small diameter wounding bullets.

  As for all animals dying different.  Yes, dramatically different if they are hit different, and sometimes quite dramaticlly different if hit with similar vital organ hits which produce a good wound channel.  However, all game of a species has basically the same amount of blood, same heart and circulation system, and same lung capacity.  Thus, if this system is hit with similar wounds placed where they take the system out, death comes very close to the same for each animal.  To claim that there is nothing consistant to be expected is unscientific nonsense.  ON THE AVERAGE, similar size wounds through the critical organs of similar sized animals will take them out at very close to the same speed.  In my experiance, feral dogs, hundreds of them, deer, many of them and elk, only a half dozen go down almost instantly when hit with a DV of 100 to 125. I autopsy every animal I shoot, and have since I started hunting 55 years ago, and know the difference in kill speed depending on what the wound takes out.  Many thousands of customers report the exact results I describe.  What I report is very extensive field experiance of hunters who have no reason to report other than the results which they have gotten.       
  The reason I delved deeply into the notion that SWC shoulders cut bullet size holes in game, are because of two animals taken with SWC's which received such small wounds that only a fool would believe the 'shoulder cutting' myth after seeing the wounds.   Both were with commercially reloaded SWC 38 special ammo with claimed velocity of 800 fps.  Both I might add, long before I got into casting and the extensive experimentation which lead to starting up LBT.  The first a tree squirrel shot through the ribs, spun around on the limb he was setting on and hung on for maybe a minute before he finally fell.  The wound looked like it had been made by an ice pick.  Barely visable.  Some time after this my young son shot a nice buck, which dropped in it's tracks.  His first deer, and he was far enough away from me that I didn't hear his shot.  He hunted me down to help dress it out, and by time we got back to the deer it was very dark, so we worked by starlight only, and boned it out, because it was too far to drag it to camp.  We couldn't see the bullet wound in the dark of coarse, but boned it carefully, and when we got to camp, under good light, never did find a piece of the meat with a visable wound.  He said the deer was looking at him and he aimed for the chest.  I don't know where the bullet hit, but we boned it CLEAN, and couldn't find any bloodshot meat or with a hole.  I will state for a fact that the SWC shoulder had to be rubbing flesh all the way through with that load, and that it probably wasn't moving the bullets at the advertised speed.  I had no way of knowing because I didn't have a chrono then.

  There will be no more argument or debate to the contrary in this post, because debate and speculation have no place against MASSES of scientific field reports.  I've had nearly 30 years of unrefuted performance reports from customers.  May I suggest that if any of this long debate has you wondering what is right, just do some calculating of displacement Velocity for whatever hard cast bullets you have on hand, making sure you understand my formula and what I am saying it means.  Then do some performance testing of your own.  On water jugs, watching the explosion differences on impact, or on game.   While doing all this, keep in the back of your mind.  Just maybe there is a reason why all jacketed hunting bullets made in the USA are designed to expand and present a wide frontal area as they penetrate.  And just maybe, frontal area of a nonexpanding bullets nose is even more critical!   
Veral Smith

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2008, 01:05:46 AM »
I guess i just dont care for my field experiences being summed up as speculation and yours as sceintific experiments. I too have been hunting for 45 years and have killed a pile of game. I too examine every wound channel and try to recover every bullet i can. I also have a buddy that has done more handgun hunting and shooting then anyone in this country. If you doubt it ask John Taffin or John Linebaugh as there close friends of his and he keeps better records of kills and pentration tests then anyone ive seen and his results mirror mine. As to animals with simular body size and organs dieing in the same ammount of time. Anyone that has hunted knows better then that. Just as anyone who has shot an animal in a muscle without hitting a major artery or a vital organ knows that that animal is going to run off and doubtfully even be recovered. It will most likely run off and die a miserable death for an infection in the wound.


. There have been many tests done that show that even adreanalin can effect how fast an animal dies and it can make a big differnce. JUst the same way a cracked up man will die slower and take alot more lead before he goes down. talk like what your preaching about a muscle hit animal going down in a short distance is the wrong info to be telling impressionable hunters on the internet. It incourages people to take a marginal shot thinking there wfn or whatever other bullet there using can make a clean kill when it wont! Ive agreed with just about all of your teachings in the past but we will certainly disagree on this point. I would have to guess that this post will magicaly dissapear anyway. Hopefully Bill will have the sense to know this needs to be said.
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Online Graybeard

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Re: SWC myths
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2008, 01:17:43 AM »
I guess i just dont care for my field experiences being summed up as speculation and yours as sceintific experiments. I too have been hunting for 45 years and have killed a pile of game. I too examine every wound channel and try to recover every bullet i can. I also have a buddy that has done more handgun hunting and shooting then anyone in this country. If you doubt it ask John Taffin or John Linebaugh as there close friends of his and he keeps better records of kills and pentration tests then anyone ive seen and his results mirror mine. As to animals with simular body size and organs dieing in the same ammount of time. Anyone that has hunted knows better then that. Just as anyone who has shot an animal in a muscle without hitting a major artery or a vital organ knows that that animal is going to run off and doubtfully even be recovered. It will most likely run off and die a miserable death for an infection in the wound.


. There have been many tests done that show that even adreanalin can effect how fast an animal dies and it can make a big differnce. JUst the same way a cracked up man will die slower and take alot more lead before he goes down. talk like what your preaching about a muscle hit animal going down in a short distance is the wrong info to be telling impressionable hunters on the internet. It incourages people to take a marginal shot thinking there wfn or whatever other bullet there using can make a clean kill when it wont! Ive agreed with just about all of your teachings in the past but we will certainly disagree on this point. I would have to guess that this post will magicaly dissapear anyway. Hopefully Bill will have the sense to know this needs to be said.

WHERE you put the bullet is far more important than WHAT BULLET you put there. A poorly placed bullet is a poorly placed bullet and more often than not will result in game being lost. That's my experience and most experienced hunters agree.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!