Odd guns/Carriages

[MikeR C]

I have been e-mailing "and7barton" to see if he had ever seen something like this:



and the subject of odd/fluke guns/carriages came up and I was going to send him this pict, I decided to post it instead:



I believe when I found this pict it said it was in Spain. It has got to be the oddest carriage I have ever seen. I'd be interested in seeing other odd cannon related "freaks"...

[and7barton]

I have been e-mailing "and7barton" to see if he had ever seen something like this:



and the subject of odd/fluke guns/carriages came up and I was going to send him this pict, I decided to post it instead:



I believe when I found this pict it said it was in Spain. It has got to be the oddest carriage I have ever seen. I'd be interested in seeing other odd cannon related "freaks"...

Hi Mike - That certainly IS odd. Those "capstans" look like they belong more on a catapult than on a gun carriage. They seem to serve no purpose so far as turning them is concerned; indeed the rear one wouldn't turn anyway as that retaining bracket is screwed to it. It's obviously not an old mounting. the "Capstan" handles and those flimsy protruberances at the rear wouldn't have survived any kind of action. The mounting that directly supports the gun looks like it might slide upon the lower part when the gun recoils. Maybe those handles could be just a convenient way to pull the gun forwards again for the next shot. But I'll stick my neck out and suggest it's a modern and quirky carriage that's more ornamental than for serious use.
Richard

[KABAR2]

The first one is from a model kit, there was also a cap firing version back in the 1960's with the same set up
I have yet to find any period drawings or reference to such a mount; it is my opinion that this is a fantasy mount
designed by a model maker just another do-dad to make it look kool......

First time I have seen the second, could it also be a fantasy piece left over from the opera or a movie set?

[Artilleryman]

I think that the capstans were meant to move the gun back into battery (without the bracket in place).  Two problems that I see are that there doesn't seem to be any provisions for adjusting elevation and windage.  My conclusion is that it is probably a modern adaption of something that might have existed.

[thelionspaw]

My local unheated barn of an "antique" center has the first one in cast iron with an 18" bbl, 1 1/4" bore, but not vented through. All of the same furniture but in steel. I offered $65 and he said, "Not enough". I said, "It will be come February". In his dreams he wants $200 !  He has had it for at least a year.

Let the games begin!

Richard "The Hondler"

[Double D]

I think we have discuss the first one before...if I remember right we  came to the conclusion that it existed...or did we?

[dan610324]

about the first picture ,  I cant understand why that should be an odd carriage .
lets asume that the axle under the barrel is shaped like an camshaft , then it would rise the breach end of the barrel when turned . except for that mechanism its just an standard naval carriage of late model .

or ??

[MikeR C]

About the first one. The cheeks are not wood textured but the wheels are, so maybe the cheeks are supposed to be metal. It has a regular quoin and the ratchet pulls down the breaching rope. I could understand if the ratchet moved the quoin, I have seen that done before. I have two of the models, with two different boxes, and the plastic is molded in different colors but the actual pieces are the same. Either the mold was sold or the model company changed names. On one box it states it is copied from an "Historical Photo", the other box makes it sound like it was part of a Barbette type garrison carriage.
As far as the second one goes, your guess is as good as mine. I suspect, however, it is a "fake" and would not survive being fired. That's not to say that something looking kinda like that was never used, but I can't imagine the one in the pict was ever used.

Just my opinion
MikeR C

[Cannoneer]

   Like KABAR2, I've only seen this ratchet mechanism on models of naval carriages. When I was a young kid the first artillery model kits I ever got were made by Italian companies ( Pocher, Mantua Model and Aeropiccola had machined brass barrels and usually mahogany for the furniture ) and I still have a couple of these. Anyways, I had a naval gun from Mantua Models that had this feature on the carriage and for some reason I still have the box ( The gun is called Cannone Da Costa Americano - Coast Battery Gun 1780-1812). I have no idea if this feature were ever used on a real gun but it's certainly possible, in fact it would make sense if used with a gun that had trunnions below the center of the bore line because this ratchet feature, as MikeR C stated, is meant to hold the breech down on the quoin and I've read that recoil caused barrels with this trunnion arrangement to bounce violently on the quoins.






I'm not saying it's original, but I think the other photo is of an early European front pintle sliding type carriage that happens to be missing its rear traversing wheels and front pintle arrangement. The metal strap holding the cascabel down is probably just meant as a safety feature to prevent the possibility of any liability being charged against the authorities in charge of the cannon.


Fort La Latte in France - barrel marked 1778


Britanny, France

I'm not calling this fantasy mortar and bed/carriage arrangement odd or a fluke, but it is in my opinion, different; as a matter of fact I'd love to have it, unfortunately the maker/seller had it up for auction on eBay, and had an exorbitant starting bid coupled with a higher set reserve and he got no bids. I always wonder why a craftsman will take something to this level of completion and then decide not to finish it? The man stated that he had just gotten a new puppy (I don't remember what kind of dog) and it was chewing on the mahogany carriage (you can see the chips missing on the end of one cheek); but couldn't he have easily stored it in a closet or put it up out of reach of the pup?








15'' barrel length
6'' muzzle O/D
2.088'' bore (no powder chamber)
7.75 depth of bore
2'' trunnion diam.

[Cannoneer]

Dan610324,

   This ones for you; while it may not be an odd/fluke carriage it sure is an odd color and I don't think this was done by someone playing with their pc's paint box. Do you think this was painted by some die-hard Swedish hippie? I find it hard to believe that this Day-Glo blue paint job could possibly be a period correct color for this carriage.


Vaxholm Castle, Sweden

[dan610324]

yeah it sure isnt the correct color in my opinion , I would have mixed it with a little dark grey or black to come closer to the original color ( or what I believe is the original color ) . sorry but I dont know how to explain whats wrong with it , but its to bright and clear blue .  I cant say what age it is on this model , but probably approximately 1750 . on earlier carriages all iron parts should have been yellow . this picture of the unique sledge is an good example of earlier swedish paintwork for carriages . but oil paintings have an layer of clear cote ( varnish , schellack ) sorry aint sure of the english names or the spelling either    , but I hope you understand what I mean .
so after hundreds of years that take an slightly yellow tone and that can change the original color slightly .
on many antique paintings the blue often have an slightly greenish tone , thats changes that appears because of time . I dont know but that can be the original color , as it seem to be placed outside an museum or similar official place it could be correct , but it can also be that they had this blue color at home and didnt care about autencity . it should be blue  period , we take what we have . 

but when we talk about this sledge , I have been trying to find out where the original painting is located to have some higher resolution pictures of it . I asked one of my contacts at the army museum if he could tell me where it is , do you know what he asked me ?? 
why photo that picture ??  isnt it better you come down here ant take photos of any of our 2 original sledges we have here ??  guess if I was happy ??  couldnt been much better than that .

but its an 300 + mile trip there and back so it wouldnt be in the nearest future , I bought an larger memory card for my camera today so Im prepared   

[thelionspaw]

Dan,
Please go. That's one of the two I am waiting to build. The other one is the Mary Rose with the over-sized trucks and raised axle. An example is in the Navy museum in Washington DC. If anyone finds themselves there, detailed construction images will be greatly appreciated. There were 7 reproductions built and distributed. Where? I don't know but that's a moot point. Here's the DC one.

[A.Roads]

I was at the Mary Rose museum a few weeks ago & took several shots of details of this carriage. Lighting was dim & no flash photography allowed etc so the pics are not high quality but when I am at my home PC over the weekend I'll post some here for you. Adrian.

[thelionspaw]

Bless you Adrian!

rc

[Cannoneer]

yeah it sure isnt the correct color in my opinion , I would have mixed it with a little dark grey or black to come closer to the original color ( or what I believe is the original color )

Dan, Yeah, I agree with you that this paint appears to be made with modern pigments; maybe a cobalt blue or ultramarine color that wouldn't have existed in that time period.
I looked up Vaxholm Castle and found that it's on an island that it is now the home of The Swedish National Museum of Coastal Defense, so you would think that they would want to be as authentic as possible in their upkeep of these artifacts. It may be as you suggest that just like some govt. run museums in the U.S. their strapped for funds and are doing the best they can. It's interesting to note that the blue paint used on the tompion looks like it would also be a more accurate shade for the carriage.
Your definitely right about successive coats of varnish on fine art oil paintings making it next to impossible to discern the the artist's original paint shades. That is one beautiful sled carriage and I'm with Richard in being excited about the prospect of seeing photos of an original.
By the way, your knowledge of English is fine, as a matter of fact if it was compared with my knowledge of Svenska you'd be classified as a genious.

[dan610324]

do you speak swedish ??
most people dont even know where sweden is located ,
some even believe we have polar bears walking in the streets here .
ok , maybe we have , but so far I never seen anyone 

[Cannoneer]

do you speak swedish ??

No, I wish I could but knowing Svenska means Swedish is about the extent of my Swedish language skills.

[A.Roads]

Here are some of the Mary Rose pictures as requested, apologies for the image quality, lighting was dim & flash photography taboo.
Adrian.

[A.Roads]

more...

[A.Roads]

Last ones...

[thelionspaw]

Adrian,
Wow! Spot on!! Thank you very much. These images are going to make my winter shorter, once I can get over PT & Traction. I have a young friend (in his 40s ) who will pull the lumber out of my loft for me and do the grunting when the time comes. The wood is what we call Sugar Maple or Rock Maple and Hard Maple. I used to tap these trees and boil the sap into syrup. I like the colour the wood finishes off to. Thanks again!

Richard "The Anxious"

[Cannoneer]

Hello Adrian,

 The Tudor Period wood joinery is fascinating to look at (and to try and figure out), and the level of artistry these cannon makers attained in their bronze casting still amazes me; could you answer a couple of questions I have about the barrel?
Is the gun that you photographed an original from the ship? 
I've been curious about an answer to this next question for some time: In your opinion is there a protective (hinged?) cover that is missing from the rectangular area around the vent?

[A.Roads]

Hi Boom J,
Yes I do believe that this barrel is original, the Royal Armouries did commission a replica of one of the Mary Rose bronze barrels & I believe that is the one currently on display in Fort Nelson - I was at Fort Nelson the day before I took these pics. Unfortunately I was limited to only about 3 hours at Fort Nelson & only one full day for Mary Rose/HMS Victory/Warrior & associated museums so I could not take in as much detail as I would have liked - plus by then my wife had changed her name to Mrs. Fedup&andgrumpy.

I am of the opinion that there was a vent cover on this barrel, I have seen almost identical remnants of fittings moulded into several other bronze guns of approximately equal size, amount of detail & same era - but with Portuguese coat of arms etc - & I do not think that this was a rare feature.

Bronze cannon such as this were highly prized & valuable, bronze was valuable enough to form part of the treasury, so they were obviously deemed worthy of having quite a few lavish details. Speaking of elaborate bronze guns, the one below should impress you even if it is a little "over the top"!
Adrian

 

[Victor3]

Dan610324,

   This ones for you; while it may not be an odd/fluke carriage it sure is an odd color and I don't think this was done by someone playing with their pc's paint box. Do you think this was painted by some die-hard Swedish hippie? I find it hard to believe that this Day-Glo blue paint job could possibly be a period correct color for this carriage.


Vaxholm Castle, Sweden

 Blue was used for guns deployed on mountain tops, as camo to blend with the sky 

[dan610324]

yeah could be
but I dont think its neccesary at the waholm island , as its an tiny island in the stockholm archepelag .
dont belive its any higher then 25 feet above sealevel anywhere   

[thelionspaw]

I had noticed the vent cover was missing when I read an illustrated article twenty-five years ago. I've seen them in lead before but assumed this one would have been decorative bronze that is still at the bottom of the Solent or being used as an ashtray somewhere. Seventeen thousand artifacts were raise by five-hundred divers. National Geographic Vol. 163, No. 5, May 1983, pgs. 646 to 675.  The cannon was made by the royal gun founders, John and Robert Owen. It is a, "bastard" non standard caliber and eleven feet long.

rc

[Cannoneer]

 

Blue was used for guns deployed on mountain tops, as camo to blend with the sky 

   I think that maybe a more reasonable explaination might be that the crew that were given the assignment to paint this carriage snuck down into the castle's dungeon and smoked a couple doobies before they tackled the task of preparing their paints. 

[thelionspaw]

I thought Swedes only smoked herring?  Dan's said he's building a smoker.

Richard "The Sausage Maker"

[dan610324]

its just children and amateurs who use weed and pot .

REAL VIKINGS USE JUNIPER TWIGS   

[Cannoneer]

I had noticed the vent cover was missing when I read an illustrated article twenty-five years ago. I've seen them in lead before but assumed this one would have been decorative bronze that is still at the bottom of the Solent or being used as an ashtray somewhere. Seventeen thousand artifacts were raise by five-hundred divers. National Geographic Vol. 163, No. 5, May 1983, pgs. 646 to 675.  The cannon was made by the royal gun founders, John and Robert Owen. It is a, "bastard" non standard caliber and eleven feet long.

rc

RC,

 Don't misunderstand me, I'm really not arguing against the point that this specific gun should be classified as a "bastard-culverin"; all I'm saying is that there is a historical record that seems to muddy the waters a bit on this being a certainty. There exist two Mary Rose inventories, the latter one being from near the mid 1500's, the time period when the ship sunk and many marine archaeologists and historians cite this document as being an important and valuable artifact. This document is known as the Anthony Roll Inventory and the author cites 15 bronze guns being on the Mary rose at this time:
Gunnes of brasse.
Cannons-II
Demycannons-II (demi-cannons)
Culverins-II
Demyculverins-VI (demi-culverins)
Saker-II
Fawcons-I (falcons)

Now, documents of this general time period make a definite distinction between a bastard-culverin and a demi-culverin so it's not like they're interchangable terms, the bastard-culverin being smaller (5pdr) and the demi-culverin being larger (9pdr). There 's no question that the article you read and the Mary Rose Museum itself have described this gun as a bastard-culverin but I think this subject could use a little clarification.


These are what I call some big bronze guns. The far two are culverins and the near two are demi-cannons.