Odd guns/Carriages

[Terry C.]

The second barrel from the front looks as if it's had its muzzle cut off.

[Cannoneer]

Hi Boom J,
Yes I do believe that this barrel is original, the Royal Armouries did commission a replica of one of the Mary Rose bronze barrels & I believe that is the one currently on display in Fort Nelson - I was at Fort Nelson the day before I took these pics. Unfortunately I was limited to only about 3 hours at Fort Nelson & only one full day for Mary Rose/HMS Victory/Warrior & associated museums so I could not take in as much detail as I would have liked - plus by then my wife had changed her name to Mrs. Fedup&andgrumpy.

I am of the opinion that there was a vent cover on this barrel, I have seen almost identical remnants of fittings moulded into several other bronze guns of approximately equal size, amount of detail & same era - but with Portuguese coat of arms etc - & I do not think that this was a rare feature.

Bronze cannon such as this were highly prized & valuable, bronze was valuable enough to form part of the treasury, so they were obviously deemed worthy of having quite a few lavish details. Speaking of elaborate bronze guns, the one below should impress you even if it is a little "over the top"!
Adrian

Thanks for your insights on this barrel, Adrian. I hope your wife has forgiven you for your exuberant interest in artillery. How about a little history on the piece in the pictures you posted: Yes, I would say it would be a fair statement to describe this field-gun as "a little over the top". Is this a royal presentation piece just intended for display in parades and such, like some of the elaborately decorated Russian guns?

[Cannoneer]

The second barrel from the front looks as if it's had its muzzle cut off.

Terry,

 I thought just the same thing; I think somewhere along the line the muzzle swell may have been damaged and removed.

[thelionspaw]

The passage I copied from in the article didn't say that it was a bastard culverin (not that I saw). It said it was a "bastard" in that it was (is?) a "nonstandard caliber".

Wouldn't it have been more practical to supply a ship with standard shot and not add to any confusion? Unless this cannon didn't stand alone in being a bastard something or other and was part of a family of bastard of the same caliber; like here in the mountains.

A also read where it was proposed that a furniture maker fashioned the non standard carriage for this prized piece. Hard to say but THIS furniture maker is going to render a smaller version of the carriage with a non-conventional barrel. THAT, will bring forth the experts.

rc

[Cannoneer]

The passage I copied from in the article didn't say that it was a bastard culverin (not that I saw). It said it was a "bastard" in that it was (is?) a "nonstandard caliber".

Wouldn't it have been more practical to supply a ship with standard shot and not add to any confusion? Unless this cannon didn't stand alone in being a bastard something or other and was part of a family of bastard of the same caliber; like here in the mountains.

A also read where it was proposed that a furniture maker fashioned the non standard carriage for this prized piece. Hard to say but THIS furniture maker is going to render a smaller version of the carriage with a non-conventional barrel. THAT, will bring forth the experts.

rc

RC,

 You use the word confusion in your post, and I think that's the operative term here. The word bastard was used coupled with the name designating the type of gun. This is a list of some of the names used to designate different sizes of artillery pieces from the Tudor period. 
From the largest to the smallest:
Cannon royal
Cannon serpentine
Bastard cannon
Demi-cannon
Cannon petra
Culverin
Basilisk
Demi-culverin
Bastard-culverin
Sacar
Minion
Falcon
Falconet
Serpentine
Rabinet
And there is other nomemclature of the period that is even more confusing; culverin-moyen, bastard double culverin, whole-culverin, half-culverin, bastard-quarter-culverin etc. It kind of amazes me that this variety of sizes and shapes of ordnance lasted for the length of time it did before some reform minded artillerists in Europe and England came to the conclusion that it would be much more efficient and much less confusing for the gunners and founders to pare these numbers of guns down to systems that utilized W, X, Y and Z for field cannon and A, B, C and D for naval guns. There were shot gauges recovered from the wreck of the Mary Rose and it doesn't take a lot of thought to figure out why.

Since the time of Owen's original thread I have been racking my brain trying to remember the name of the British wood working co. (not furniture) that was given the contract by the Mary Rose Museum to build the carriage your infatuated with, and it finally came back to me; it's OAKMASTERS, and the reason I was so sure their carriage was made of oak is because English oak is the only wood they work with.

So. if you do make a fine miniature of this carriage out of rock maple are you going to be able to resist the urge to go to an artist's foundry and get a beautiful miniature bronze reproduction of this bastard-culverin cast to mount on it?

[thelionspaw]

Boomer,
I know about the oak. There are at least 2 companies that I know of that did use oak for the 6 or 7 reproductions. The museum undoubtedly specified oak; possibly regardless of the original species of wood; but not probably. Here is one from the company you wrote about.

[Cannoneer]

A also read where it was proposed that a furniture maker fashioned the non standard carriage for this prized piece. Hard to say but THIS furniture maker is going to render a smaller version of the carriage with a non-conventional barrel. THAT, will bring forth the experts.

 I was wondering why you didn't answer my question; I somehow missed that NONCONVENTIONAL barrel bit. Please Shoe-less Joe, say it aint so! You mean to tell me your going to make this unique carriage, with its iron-work and then defile it by mounting some red haired step son on it, I can't bear the thought of it. But seriously folks: Just for the sake of appeasing curiousity, you probably know of a bronze foundry or have dealt with one in the past; so what do you think (just a ball park figure) that the bastard-culverin barrel at, let's say around 20-inches, would run you.

[GGaskill]

The bronze alone would probably run close to a grand these days.

[dan610324]

and probably another 1500 for the work if they are going to make an exact copy of the original , I have been looking very carefylly at that barrel and it aint easy to do it if you want it perfect
forget all sandcasting , that must be done with lost wax mold . it aint easy , and not cheap .
very few foundries have equipment to work with lost wax castings

[thelionspaw]

I'm using a 30" cast iron swivel gun tube from the founder who made one for "Master and Commander". It's for golf balls. Look at about the last sceen in "Master and Commander". It's there on the rail behind Crowe.

If it will make you happy, I'll get a can of WalMart bronze and spray it. Unfortunately I had a friend/fellow sculptor who lived just over the hill. He used to cast large 8' + pieces in bronze but just moved to Arizona during last august.

I wrote that it, "will bring forth the experts".  You're a little early Boomer.

Richard "The Philistine" 

[Cannoneer]

The bronze alone would probably run close to a grand these days.

Now that kind of surprises me, I didn't realize that just the material would be that high.                                                                                                                                       

and probably another 1500 for the work if they are going to make an exact copy of the original , I have been looking very carefylly at that barrel and it aint easy to do it if you want it perfect
forget all sandcasting , that must be done with lost wax mold . it aint easy , and dot cheap .
very few foundries have equipment to work with lost wax castings

                                                                                                                                                           I figured that it would be costly to have a fine arts foundry that was usually making sculpture do the casting.

I'm using a 30" cast iron swivel gun tube from the founder who made one for "Master and Commander". It's for golf balls. Look at about the last sceen in "Master and Commander". It's there on the rail behind Crowe.

If it will make you happy, I'll get a can of WalMart bronze and spray it. Unfortunately I had a friend/fellow sculptor who lived just over the hill. He used to cast large 8' + pieces in bronze but just moved to Arizona during last august.

I wrote that it, "will bring forth the experts".  You're a little early Boomer.

Richard "The Philistine" 

I'll dare you call me an expert you Philistine; I was just worried that you were going to do something unseemly, like mounting an old bronze vase on it, and then calling it the first pot-de-fer on trucks, after all the word unconventional does convey many possibilities. I'm just teasing you, I know the price for having that barrel made at 30-inches would be steep. I'm sure the barrel your going to mount on the carriage is going to look fine. I can't sleep and I haven't seen M & C for awhile, so I'm going to check out the swivel gun your talking about.

[GGaskill]

The bronze alone would probably run close to a grand these days.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Now that kind of surprises me, I didn't realize that just the material would be that high.

I am guessing here.  When I cast my half scale mountain howitzers, the silicon bronze I used cost about $2.25 a pound.  Copper alloys have tripled in cost recently so I was guessing that between normal inflation and the recent dramatic price rise, it might be $7-$8 a pound.  The mountain howitzer castings weighed about 95 pounds each at 18 inches length so a 30 inch barrel could easily top a grand for metal at those prices.

[dan610324]

you are extremely corect in your guestimated price ,
here in sweden the silicone bronze cost just over $ 8 a pound
I just bought 220 pounds ( 100 kilo )
as the metal prices are international I would guess its the same over there .

[Cannoneer]

The bronze alone would probably run close to a grand these days.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Now that kind of surprises me, I didn't realize that just the material would be that high.

I am guessing here.  When I cast my half scale mountain howitzers, the silicon bronze I used cost about $2.25 a pound.  Copper alloys have tripled in cost recently so I was guessing that between normal inflation and the recent dramatic price rise, it might be $7-$8 a pound.  The mountain howitzer castings weighed about 95 pounds each at 18 inches length so a 30 inch barrel could easily top a grand for metal at those prices.

you are extremely corect in your guestimated price ,
here in sweden the silicone bronze cost just over $ 8 a pound
I just bought 220 pounds ( 100 kilo )
as the metal prices are international I would guess its the same over there .

 This is bad medicine fellas; I was thinking that maybe some odd years on down the road I'd be able to get a (maybe, one third ) scale model of a James Type II Rifle with a rifled sleeve, but by the way you guys are talking by the time this plan rolls around the bronze will cost what gold is worth now.

[GGaskill]

... the bronze will cost what gold is worth now.

It's not the value of the metal that is going up but the value of the dollar that is going down.   

[dan610324]

no it aint , the dollar have rised significantly in value the last months
at least against the swedish currency
its the chinese need for metals to their production that raised the metal prices .

but doesnt matter why , the most important is that the bronze soon is way to expensive to use ,
soon people cant afford to buy an decent bronze cannon .
thats a pity , everyone should have one     hope all of you guys have 

another posibility is to buy scrap metal , but its not good for cannons as you never can be sure what alloy you have when you melted it .
because copper pipes and many other such things aint pure copper , its alloys and you never know whats in it . NEVER USE THIS FOR CANNONS

i NEVER EVEN USE THE SILICONE BRONZE FOR CANNONS , BECAUSE iM AN ORIGINAL FREAK .

I only use virgin copper and tin for my cannon castings as I want 90 / 10 alloy in my cannons .
its nice to be sure about the alloy

[thelionspaw]

I went to the steel yard to get some stock for a sculpture I was doing and returned 10 days later for more and the price had doubled. Scrap cars are $200 a ton and the converter gets you an additional $65. I remarked to myself, be happy with what you have because the party is over. You don't want to even think about scrap copper and brass, let alone new. Man! You never saw so many of my mountain neighbours get to cleaning up their yards for cash. I almost gave up my porch furniture; the settee with end tables. The old truck bench seat with the washer and dryer at either end. No sir! I wasn't going to look like no "towny".

Richard a.k.a. Rube Rustic

[Cannoneer]

I went to the steel yard to get some stock for a sculpture I was doing and returned 10 days later for more and the price had doubled. Scrap cars are $200 a ton and the converter gets you an additional $65. I remarked to myself, be happy with what you have because the party is over. You don't want to even think about scrap copper and brass, let alone new. Man! You never saw so many of my mountain neighbours get to cleaning up their yards for cash. I almost gave up my porch furniture; the settee with end tables. The old truck bench seat with the washer and dryer at either end. No sir! I wasn't going to look like no "towny".

Richard a.k.a. Rube Rustic

 Earlier in the year there was a Chicago Trib article about people coming back to their homes from being on vacation and finding that all their aluminum gutters had vanished and that this type of crime was on the upswing; life can be rough.

[A.Roads]

Thanks for your insights on this barrel, Adrian. I hope your wife has forgiven you for your exuberant interest in artillery. How about a little history on the piece in the pictures you posted: Yes, I would say it would be a fair statement to describe this field-gun as "a little over the top". Is this a royal presentation piece just intended for display in parades and such, like some of the elaborately decorated Russian guns?

Hi BoomJ

I'm very fortunate in having a wife unusually tolerant in my hobbie/obsession of British militaria collecting/studying, though her patience does wear a little thin at times....
The gun history description reads:
"Bronze gun made for the Grand Master of the Knights of St. John, Malta, known as the Furies gun. This is because the carriage is carved with female figures symbolizing death and destruction. The gun was cast in 1773 making use of an earlier design of 1684. Captured by the British from a French ship carrying booty from Malta in 1798."

Adrian

[Cannoneer]

Adrian,

 Thanks for the information: That is the only carriage I've ever seen carved with full length human figures. 

I haven't seen the Portuguese guns you mentioned in an earlier post that you said seemed as if they had attached vent covers, but the Mary Rose gun's vent appearance certainly leads to the conclusion that it originally had a vent cover. As Richard mentioned in a previous post, I had read about the lead vent covers that are sometimes called aprons but the only gun that I had seen with an intact attached vent cover was this 37-inch British bronze naval gun from the 19th century. If I remember correctly, this gun was described as a Royal Navy officers personal signal gun.

 

[thelionspaw]

Boomer,
Who owns this piece?

rc

[Cannoneer]

Boomer,
Who owns this piece?

rc

Richard,

 I have this lazy habit of typing only a minimal amount of info as a caption when I save photos, and many times this habit comes back to haunt me when at a later date I'd like to have a more detailed description of an object that I've saved. I think I can detect an admiration for this piece that may duplicate my own. I know I saw it on a high-end British antique ordnance store site, and it was for sale. I don't think the price was listed or I would have noted it; so I'm guessing it was probably some major poundage and I don't mean its weight. 'I think' they described it as the type of gun a wealthy navy officer might have owned and used as a signal gun aboard ship. I like everything about this gun, from the profile of the barrel with its hinged vent cover to the incredible design of the carriage. 

[thelionspaw]

"a wealthy naval officer might have owned".  So what am I, chopped liver?

I guess so because I recently saw an auction for a detailed scaled model of the Mary Rose cannon. Problemo! I had to have a British county as my home to register to bid.

I clicked CONTACT and politly asked if they would consider dealing with a Yank.

No response.

I wrote a second time.

No response.

Next I clicked COMPLAINTS, thinking CONTACT wasn't working.

No response.

I then wrote the Chairman/Director a nice letter.

No response.

The auction ended with zero bids and the opening bid was to be 25 pounds.

It was something called Charity to Charity with the money going to the Mary Rose Trust.

Nice people!

Richard a.k.a. "Chopped Liver"

[dan610324]

what size ??
do you got anny address to that auction site ??

[Cannoneer]

RC,

 I would never call you chopped liver, but isn't pate de foie gras considered ritzy? Don't answer this last question, you'll end up having someone trying to dump a bucket of goose blood on your head.
 
This scale model was on eBay some time ago and I was a little tempted to bid, but I had the feeling this 10'' barrel was made of white metal. I sent a message to the seller asking if he thought it was brass or bronze, and he responded that he had no clue, so I let it go. I think these are probably manufactured to be sold at museums as souvenirs, although your photos look like they're of a higher quality model. I don't know what the gun ended up selling for, but whatever it was you then have to tack on the silly amount that it cost's to ship from England.

[thelionspaw]

Dan,
I think the cannon was 27 inches. Google "Charity 2 Charity auction".  The chairman is Steve Bailey. Totally unprofessional lack of communication.  I had asked to be considered and notified if it was relisted.  I almost asked Adrian to bid for me but I didn't wish to inconvenience him.

Boomer,
I have a great family recipe for chopped chicken liver.  It went with Sunday's dinner when we had a hen that wasn't laying.

rc

[Cannoneer]

RC,

 I forgot to ask you for your opinion on this question in the other post: Do you think the carriage (19th century gun) is made of mahogany, (possibly) cherry, or something other?

[thelionspaw]

I would expect it to be mahogany but to be honest with you, it actually appears to be mahogany stained pine to me. I don't like the knots and what wavy grain I can see. As they say on eBay, "I am no expert", which gets me off the hook.

rc

[dan610324]

now I registered at that site ,
I just wrote my normal address and picked the first county in the list   

does that mean Im an swenglish citizen now

but when looking at that site it doesnt seem that they had any activities since april .
maybe they dont even exist any longer .

I will try to email them to see if there will be any response

[thelionspaw]

Dan,
The cannon auction closed around 27 September and they had another auction after that.  I checked and there is nothing now.

rc