Odd guns/Carriages

[Cannoneer]

Richard,

 I searched for the site with no luck and I don't remember what info was given on the wood. I'm going to go with mahogany or some exotic for the carriage wood. I think what you're calling a knot (by the chain of the capsquare key) might just be damage, and the 8'' mahogany carriage I'm working on now has a pretty pronounced grain.

[thelionspaw]

I don't think the birdseye is from the chain and the colour variations to the lower right of the screw is not uncommon in finishing pine (dark to highlight). Also the foward edges have the look of pine as does the tongue like grain on the foward inside left. There is someone on this site that I believe is an accomplished joiner. I read his comments once. I've butchered wood for close to 60 years and that's what it looks like to me BUT other woods can imitate this. If I were to build something on a small scale like this, I would spring for Honduran, Cuban and maybe Brazilian mahogany. NOT asian or african. You want it dense, tight and dark. I believe I saw a nice carriage under one of El Cazador's pieces. Maybe in the calendar post. I think he might have had a sponsor create it. (?)

I've got some pieces of teak, rosewood and black walnut waiting for chopping. I also have Butternut and a 24" X 30" X 3" block of clear cherry.  The Rock Maple is slotted for a project. I'm not sure if I have mahogany left but I do have a little Birdseye Maple and Tiger Maple. If it doesn't eat; keep it!

Problem is that one can go broke collecting tubes. It I were to involve myself, I'd go for suits with at least 2 pair of pants.

rc

[Cannoneer]

 In the early 1800's British naval officers were contemptuous of our miniscule naval force and showed this contempt by referring to our six finest war ships (this includes the USS Constitution) as "fir-built frigates", mocking the fact that their decking was fashioned from South Carolina pine (evidently considered by the British officers as a wood not befitting a proper war ship's decks). I guess masts are another story because up until the revolution the British were utilizing the best and tallest white pines that could be found on the east coast to mast the Royal Navy's war ships. In time I think it's safe to say that some of those British officers came to alter their opinions of a few of those "fir-built frigates".
 You may ask what this story has to do with anything; well your the one who brought up pine.

[thelionspaw]

Oh!

I was on pins and needles reading your exciting tome, anxiously awaiting the thrilling climax.

So does this mean that I couldn't get a answer from Charity2Charity because 200 years later, they are still sulking over their loss of our wood for their masts?

I realized yesterday that there are still 2 bronze cannon in front of an old, defunct, former Kingston city hall but I couldn't stop this trip through. The British burned Kingston to the ground in 1777. Maybe they are historical?  I'll find out soon enough.

rc

[Cannoneer]

I was on pins and needles reading your exciting tome, anxiously awaiting the thrilling climax.

I find your wit unabashedly prickly.

So does this mean that I couldn't get a answer from Charity2Charity because 200 years later, they are still sulking over their loss of our wood for their masts?

I think the masts may have a good deal to do with it, but now that it has been compounded with their knowledge of your boorish treatment of poor Ferdinand coupled with your latest transgression against proper decorum, namely insulting a fine British woodcrafter by suggesting he spent time wasting his considerable talent working on a lowly piece of pine, I dare say I'd venture a guess that you may now be considered persona non grata by the entire population of this Grand Island.

I believe I saw a nice carriage under one of El Cazador's pieces. Maybe in the calendar post. I think he might have had a sponsor create it. (?)

I know Lendi of Duck Island Cannon Works has fashioned a few carriages and a mortar bed for El Caz and I think I know which one you're talking about about, but I can't remember what kind of wood he used (I think it was an exotic wood).

[thelionspaw]

Once you paint a carriage like some prefer to do, what difference does the species make?  Historical accuracy is nice but if it isn't a full size replica and will sit on a table or shelf, I'd prefer mahogany. Sure it's functional but it is decorative too. However, that's why they make vanilla and chocolate.  Some like pine; some oak.  Period pine pieces can be expensive and valuable too.  Take the "Antique Road Show" as an example; "This pine table is valued at about $30 but if you hadn't cleaned it with New Pledge, it would have been worth $300,000".

My neighbour measured that we had a dump of 18" yesterday and power just returned.

[Cannoneer]

I know Lendi of Duck Island Cannon Works has fashioned a few carriages and a mortar bed for El Caz and I think I know which one you're talking about about, but I can't remember what kind of wood he used (I think it was an exotic wood).

This was buggin' me so of course I had to go searching for what kind of wood Len used to make the carriage for El Caz, and as usual I got lost. So Richard, this is just for you; it was TASMANIAN BLACKWOOD, and it does have a beautiful figure.

Why all the snow so soon, or is this normal for your location?

[thelionspaw]

See? The only guarantees we have are death and taxes. I wood (oops) I would have guessed mahogany because tasmanian blackwood as used in guitars is brownish. That piece looks red. Could be the photo image.

Try this globalwoodsource.com if you want outstanding carriage wood. They usually have special sales for one thing or another. They are in California.

We can get flurries in late September and a good drop about now. I've seen 12" just overnight in May. This last 18" was overnight with more in the morning. About 10-15 years ago we had 54" and I was worried that the cattle were just going to walk over the fencing. The horse was an Irish jumper so he would do it any season. One January we had our "January thaw" and the village was on national TV with 6' of water running through the town. Back in the mid 50s, my friends Buick was just about the only car left in town with everyone elses gone down stream. The dealer had left his on the lift overnight.

So if you want a dream carriage, I would shop globalwoodsource.com
 

[Cannoneer]

El Cazador,

 Richard and I have been discussing woods; I found the thread with your Brook's 1-inch bore brass naval gun on a truck carriage (Tazmanian Blackwood). What kind of wood did Len use for the bed he made for the brass mortar you got from cannonmn?

[lendi]

from Duck Island Cannon Works
Just saw the various posts on woods that I have used for El Cazadore for his carriages.  The Tazmanian Blackwood was used for a barrel that he had made by one of the other sponsors.  I believe Tropico also has one of the barrels.  I used Tazmanian Blackwood because Koa was way too expensive.  I chose this material because El Caz wanted something special for this piece.  I also purchased extra material for one of my owe projects, if I ever get time to build it.  The material for his mortar was "Royal Mahogany"  that he supplied.  It was more dense than Honduras.  I have used Honduras mahogany for many projects as it has been used in many old signal cannon carriages.  I am presently finishing up a carriage for a bronze tube that is dated 1620 with a Spanish heritage,  It has a hefty price tag on it.  It to will be built with Honduras mahogany.  In general I use woods to match the project.  Signal cannons are usually not used often and the owners use them for display.  I have used cherry, walnut, teak, mahogany and ebony.  When it comes to my naval carriages, from 12" barrels to a 60" iron 3# British (500#) I only use White Oak.  Far superior to the red species but difficult to get in the 3" thickness.  We also are making our own shoulder eye bolts from Everdure bronze in 3 sizes.  1/4, 5/16, and 3/8 and will have them for sale as well as other castings that we use.  Hope to put these parts on our web site in the near future.  Hope that this clears up some of the past posts.  Always love reading about and seeing the work of the members of the list.  It is outstanding

Lendi
Duck Island Cannon Works

[Cannoneer]

 Thanks for the response Lendi, great info on the different woods, and I'm now especially looking forward to seeing the shouldered bronze eyebolts.

[dan610324]

havent been able yet to visit stockholm ,
but found another picture from the swedish victory in Narva 1700 .

there the only 18 year old king beat the hell out of the russians .
the swedish army was 10 800 men , the russian army 43 000 men .
the swedes had 8 cannons and the russians had 180 .
approximately 32 000 russians died and 800 swedes
war aint fun .

if it would be an conflict today it would be enough if someone snezed in the kremlin and sweden would be erased from the map   
things changes

but back to the sledge again

I got some more pictures , low quality but still extremely interesting .
the sledge is very beautiful and odd ,
but enlarge the pictures and you will find something even more odd .

yeah its right , its an 3 bore barrel in one of the sledges .

but thats not all , all 3 chambers are connected to eachother .
when you fire it you will fire all 3 barrels simultanously .
thats why they can have so very thin sections  between the barrels ,
you have the same preassure at the other side of the wall
and dont need the normal strength of an oter barrel wall .

the other sledge are equiped with an for that time usual light swedish 3 pounder regimental cannon .
approximately 3 inch bore , but I would guess from the photo that the 3 bore barrel aint more then
1 3/4 to 2 inch in diameter

[thelionspaw]

Thank you Dan. What ever you have on this sled is greatly appreciated.

Richard
a.k.a. "Nanook of the North"

[dan610324]

sorry attached the wrong picture ,
here is the picture I want to add .
enlarge it and look in the lower left corner

[Victor3]

if it would be an conflict today it would be enough if someone seezed in the kremlin and sweden would be erased from the map   
things changes

 I dunno Dan, some of my extended family in Finland did a job on them for a while more recently than 1700 

 And then there's that unfortunate war they waged against some ill-equipped guys hiding in caves a while back...

[dan610324]

yeah but those are finns , they are increadible .
I have a few friends who actually fight in the winter war .
one of them told me that when the war was started they didnt even have uniforms or guns .
they sneak in during the nights to the russian camps and cut the throat of sleeping russians to steel their guns and clothes .

[Cannoneer]

Dan,

 I'm glad you posted that last painting, because it shows that this wasn't a huge carriage, some of the paintings and photos give the impression that it's a much larger mount; or are some of the pictures of the same type carriage made for larger cannons?
In any case, there's something fascinating about this sleigh with ordnance attached to it that makes you want to try and make a reproduction of it (at least it does to me and Richard).
That barrel with three bores is something entirely new to me, I've never seen the like of it.

[dan610324]

no it aint big , its just an 3 pounder in that sledge
approximately 4-5 feet long barrel
barrel weight approximately 250 kilo
sledga 200 kilo
one man with winter clothes and weapon 100 kilo
projectiles , powder and accesories another 150
so you end up with an heavy load total
I was told they used 2 horses to pull that sledge
and probably it was at least 2 more men taking an free ride instead of marching   
but as soon as I have anything more about it I will post it here .

it sure would be interesting to build that sledge with the 3 bore barrel in 1:3 scale .
smaller scale will just make it more difficult to produce it exactly as the original .

I think they all are for the 3 pounder regimental cannon , but Im not sure .
at that time swedish kings and military changed the artillery totaly ,
no cannons with larger caliber then 12 pounds was used .
it was much better to have many smaller cannons that was easy to move then a few heavier guns .
they even tried with an leather cannon as we discussed in another post here .
it was an thin walled tube ( maybe 1/2" walls and 3" caliber)
outside they had an rope around it very tight and then an layer of leather
but after some fatal accidents they didnt use that idea any more

[thelionspaw]

Yo Boomer!
Why would you ever think that I would want to (in my infirm state) build another beast? I ain't sayin nuttin BUT I guesstimated right off the bat when Dan published the first image a while back, that the rig would be 30" high. Now I/we can see that for a fact +- unless the Swedes in the painting are 7' tall.

Soooooo I started it on paper to be 30" high and 56" long and 35" wide so I can store it here in one of my gallery spaces and get it in & out of the door and only incidently, winched up the ramps on The Lion's Paw's trailer.

The golf ball barrel is already on the garage floor where the UPS driver struggled to carry it because I am wrecked but still piecing the iron hardware together with less alacrity and more difficulty than I wish.  I just spent $800 on what all cannoneers need. A traction table, so that I can stand (hopefully) for more than 15-20 minutes at a time.

I've noticed that there are variations on the theme in the illustrations. Mine may be yet another.  Oooops!  There I let it slip. Dang!  Now you know what I am up to. 

n.b. I intend to have the barrel be interchangeable with a Mary Rose carriage.

Richard "The Glutton for Punishment"

[EL Caz 66]

Sorry BoomJ,  Yeah that to what Lendi said...

[dan610324]

I would guess that the average height 300 + years back wasnt more then 5'4"

if you wait just a while before you starting this I hope to be able to present the original drawings for this .

my contact at the army museum told me that they had the drawings , and I have asked for them .

hopefully I can present them here soon .

but be patient , sometimes it takes several weeks before he replies to my emails .

[thelionspaw]

Dan: No problemo. I am in a holding pattern.

rc

[Cannoneer]

Sorry BoomJ,  Yeah that to what Lendi said...

I was wondering where you were. I see you sold the Mt. Howitzer; I was looking at it with some big eyes, I just didn't have the bread right now.

[EL Caz 66]

Boom J,

I see you sold the Mt. Howitzer; I was looking at it with some big eyes, I just didn't have the bread right now.

If I knew you were interested I would of put her to the side for you.

Ed

[dan610324]

now I got a little more info on the sledge , or more exactly on the barrels mounted in the sledges .
no one can say fore sure when they start using this type of sledge , but they are mentioned in old documents from approximately 1670 .
most common was to use them for 3 pound regimental cannons .
but the 2 originals in the army museum are equiped with the 3 bore barrell

I got 2 new photos of the barrells today
unfortunately they are a bit small in size , but the best picture is the largest .
in the front field you got Cerbreus , the 3 headed watch dog from the mythology
suitable for an 3 bore barrell   
in the back field you got the kings mirrored monogram , Karl XII ( Carolus in latin )
thats why its two mirrored C and not K . 

I also got a few photos of the drawing for the barrell but the files are to large to post here and when they are resized to less then 1024 kb they are impossible to see on the screen .
so if you are interested in the photos of the drawing please send me an email  :   dan610324@hotmail.com
but they are 4 mb each , so they will need plenty of space in your mail inbox .

[dan610324]

now DD helped me to crop and resize the pictures
if someone is good at reading old handwriting it would be very interesting to know what it say ,

[thelionspaw]

Thanks for the additional information Dan. 

Here's something that I was curious about. Does the sun ever shine enough in Sweden to see the earth that's under the snow or do they only have wars on the snow? 

Here's why I ask: That's alot of inventory without wheels. Did they pull the barrel and store the sledge and then mount the tube on wheeled carriages that were already stored or did they have a huge inventory of each?

Where would they store everything if it was peace time and the stock pile wasn't sliding or rolling in a war?  It would look like my garage.

Richard

[dan610324]

hehehe

I would guess you got more snow where you lives then we have here this days .
40 years ago we had nice winters , now its almost an english climate here , ok not really , but almost .

I have no idea how they solved the logistics and storage problem when they was away for many years of war ,
I assume they stored the normal carriages and shift to the sledges when the snow came .
but I dont know for sure .

could also have been that they had lots of cannons and had them on different season carriages .
just from the battle of Narva the swedes bring back all 180 russian bronze cannons as war trophys , and over 60 tons of other weapons .
remember that they killed alömost the complete russian army there .

and at that time approximately 50 - 60 % of Europes copper production came from one swedish copper mine called "stora kopparberget" ( great copper mountain ) its located in Falun , just 50 miles from where I lives . also lots of silver and gold have been delivered from there .
so the amount of available copper for cannon production wasnt directly limited .
that mine have built the wealth of this country . it was running in full production to december the 8 1992.
today the company are mostly involved in forrest and paper industries .
 .
oldest document found mention the mine and the company is from 1288 , its the bishop Peter from Vasteras who buys back 1/8 of the mine , photo of the document is attached here .
already at that time the mine was considered as an very important part of sweden .
and the absolutely most important export income for the country , and stayed as the most important export industry until the iron started to be bigger in mid 1700 .
Stora as the company name is today is the worlds oldest still running company . approximately 1000 years
without any written evidence they belive the mining production begin in early viking age .
archeological findings indicates that .

[GGaskill]

Here is an interesting story about Stora.  Note the date (1999) and the comments on the second page about how the copper business is suffering from depressed prices.

[dan610324]

wish those prices could be today   

thats an fine description you found , very complete .

I just must add one picture .

it is the swedish 10 daler plate money ( I refuse to call it a coin  )
weight approximately 44 pounds
must admit that its easier with an visa card .