Author Topic: Is there a better muzzel loader out their for $180 (Read 3946 times)

223dog · « **on:** October 14, 2008, 06:45:40 AM »

I own a H&R Rifle and I am thinking a bout sending it back to get it fitted for a 26" stainless muzzel loader. I would cost about $180 to send it in and have them fit it. My question is, is there a better muzzy out there for $180? Are the huntsman/sidekicks a good gun? Should I look at a different one. I want a inline and would like it to be stainless. To me this just seems to be the cheapest.

Swampman · « **Reply #1 on:** October 14, 2008, 07:42:03 AM »

I would avoid CVA, Traditions, the new Remington, and anything else made in Spain.

The Knight Wolverine is a great rifle. The NEF is very hard to beat. Cabela's has been selling them cheap, but they seem to be out right now.

yooper77 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 14, 2008, 07:50:55 AM »

Another $120 and buy a T/C Omega.or save up more for a Triumph, or a little more for an Encore.

You cant go wrong and with the Encore plus you don't need to send in the frame for a new barrel.

Just stay away from the Bergara barrels (made in Spain) and buy factory T/C (made in U.S.A.) or other U.S.A. made barrels you desire.

yooper77

Swampman · « **Reply #3 on:** October 14, 2008, 08:08:38 AM »

T/C recently shipped a bunch of guns with the scope holes drilled off center. Be sure you check for that. They did not issue a recall.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #4 on:** October 14, 2008, 08:15:15 AM »

Those 2 above probably drive made in mexico chevys or canadian built fords and not an American made Toyota,hyundai or honda.

CVA out of all the muzzleloaders made in spain, is easily the best to deal with as their products are very well made and their customer service is darn good at replacing/fixing any issues you have within a phone call.

Its going to be hard to find a complete SS muzzleloader for $180 unless its an older model that is used.

For stainless you will be looking at either the older model knights,tc,nef, or even a new model break open cva optima/ optima pro (used).

Gunbroker.com is a good place to start looking but make sure you always ask questions about the condition of the bore and the trigger.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #5 on:** October 14, 2008, 08:17:35 AM »

Quote from: yooper77 on October 14, 2008, 07:50:55 AM

Just stay away from the Bergara barrels (made in Spain) and buy factory T/C (made in U.S.A.) or other U.S.A. made barrels you desire.
yooper77

And what exactly is wrong with the Bergara barrel line up thats top quality and has a guarantee to out shoot your factory muzzleloader barrel?

Swampman · « **Reply #6 on:** October 14, 2008, 08:29:45 AM »

Personal safety was the reason I suggested avoiding Spanish made muzzleloaders. I don't want to see anyone injured or killed.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #7 on:** October 14, 2008, 08:33:43 AM »

To be honest, thats a foolish reason. Any barrel on any make of rifle,muzzle loader,pistol,shotgun can have an unseen flaw and give up at any moment. Traditions never (That i know of) had a problem with their barrels.

Austin and helleck ( Spelling?) was made in spain and for a while before they went out of business, were top notch quality.

Randy Wakeman readers?

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 14, 2008, 08:34:27 AM »

Randy Wakeman's saga strikes again!!

If you shop around on the net, you can probably find a stainless CVA or Traditions for less than $200 brand new. If you want to spend a little more, I bought a brand new T/C Omega Stainless/Syn for $299 shipped. I've seen the blue/syn go for as little as $185 brand new as well.

I'm not a huge fan of the NEF's, although I will admit that I've seen some fine shooting Handi's and Ultra's. I also have seen more issues with getting those guns to shoot than perhaps any other. If it were me, I'd just find a regular ML that I liked and go with that.

Swampman · « **Reply #9 on:** October 14, 2008, 08:44:02 AM »

Quote

Austin and helleck ( Spelling?) was made in spain and for a while before they went out of business, were top notch quality.

They proofed their own barrels, and they were good guns. Unfortunately they are no longer available.

He was asking about a better muzzleloader. I was trying to suggest a safe one.

Quote

I'd just find a regular ML that I liked and go with that.

An NEF is a regular muzzleloader.

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 14, 2008, 08:50:21 AM »

No, it's a centerfire rifle that can take a ML barrel. Just like an Encore, KP1, or Optima Elite. A "regular" ML is a gun that's only a ML. Let's clarify and say a non-paperwork weapon. Names like Omega, Hawken, Wolvering, Kodiak, Pursuit.....ok, the Huntsman can't change barrels, I'll give you that.

yooper77 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 14, 2008, 08:52:40 AM »

It's a personal choice. I wouldn't buy anything but T/C factory barrels for my Encore. I have seen Bergara barrels and they are not top quality in my opinion. I have had over 10 each T/C Encore factory barrels without any problems at all. I know 10 each barrels are a drop in the bucket compared to other people's collection, but to my experience T/C is stellar quality. I can beat Bargara's price, so that's not an issue. Yes, Bergara's are made in Spain and T/C's are made in U.S.A., good enough reason for me too.

My T/C Encore 209x50 shoots much less than 2" groups at 100 yards, so no problem with accuracy.

I know I have foreign items in my house, but if I can buy 100% U.S.A. made, I will and do.

yooper77

Quote from: bigblock455 on October 14, 2008, 08:17:35 AM

Quote from: yooper77 on October 14, 2008, 07:50:55 AM
Just stay away from the Bergara barrels (made in Spain) and buy factory T/C (made in U.S.A.) or other U.S.A. made barrels you desire.
yooper77

And what exactly is wrong with the Bergara barrel line up thats top quality and has a guarantee to out shoot your factory muzzleloader barrel?

Swampman · « **Reply #12 on:** October 14, 2008, 08:54:49 AM »

Quote from: kyelkhunter3006 on October 14, 2008, 08:50:21 AM

No, it's a centerfire rifle that can take a ML barrel. Just like an Encore, KP1, or Optima Elite. A "regular" ML is a gun that's only a ML. Let's clarify and say a non-paperwork weapon. Names like Omega, Hawken, Wolvering, Kodiak, Pursuit.....ok, the Huntsman can't change barrels, I'll give you that.

My NEF is a non-paperwork firearm. It's also a safe American made firearm.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #13 on:** October 14, 2008, 09:02:12 AM »

Lets get back on track so i don't to delete all this stuff

Make my job easier.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2008, 09:03:19 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on October 14, 2008, 08:54:49 AM

Quote from: kyelkhunter3006 on October 14, 2008, 08:50:21 AM
No, it's a centerfire rifle that can take a ML barrel. Just like an Encore, KP1, or Optima Elite. A "regular" ML is a gun that's only a ML. Let's clarify and say a non-paperwork weapon. Names like Omega, Hawken, Wolvering, Kodiak, Pursuit.....ok, the Huntsman can't change barrels, I'll give you that.

My NEF is a non-paperwork firearm. It's also a safe American made firearm.

And one thats no longer made correct?

223dog · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2008, 09:28:19 AM »

boy did I ever open up a can of worms! Yes I do know of all the trouble that people have with their handi rifles. I do own one (.223) and I am still getting the bugs worked out. I have yet to find a new muzzel loader for 180 I was just wondering if there was one I didn't know of. I have heard a lot of bad things about both cva and traditions they seem to be on the lower end of the muzzy market.

Swampman · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2008, 09:32:27 AM »

Other than the Knight Wolverine which is very inexpensive, I know of no good safe muzzleloaders still in production for under $300.00. I've never had a single problem with an NEF product and I've owned a bunch.

Sportsman's Guide has the Knight Wolverine with a whole bunch of extra stuff for $249.00. It's a good solid/accurate/safe muzzleloader.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #17 on:** October 14, 2008, 09:34:24 AM »

cva is a great brand now days.

Heres how the list goes for the top selling muzzleloaders

TC
CVA
KNIGHT

Those are the top dogs in todays muzzleloading world. You can throw the smokeless savage muzzleloader in there too, if your state allows that thing.

Your price range though is what kills a lot of deals unless its used and an old model inline.

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 14, 2008, 10:02:22 AM »

The Knight Wolverine is a top choice for an economical gun. I've had the regular model as well as a youth model in the safe right now, and they are both shooters with just about anything I want to run through them. I know for a fact that you can find CVA Kodiak's for under $300 any day of the week. They've got a good rep, and if I was on a tight budget, I'd be checking them out pretty hard.

Semisane · « **Reply #19 on:** October 14, 2008, 11:00:59 AM »

Well 223dog, I don't see how you can do better than getting a new barrel for your H&R, especially if your's has a good trigger. That's what I would do. In fact, I would probably go with the blued barrel myself, unless you're in love with stainless. They are solid well made guns and have a good reputation for accuracy.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #20 on:** October 14, 2008, 11:15:17 AM »

as an after throught, if you have the color case hardened frame, i dont think that would look to hot with SS barrel. I'd go with the blue barrel like semisane stated.

bubba · « **Reply #21 on:** October 14, 2008, 03:47:03 PM »

you will not go wrong with the huntsman barrel. It is your best option for the money you mention. I hunt with a huntsman barrel fitted to my 243 frame. Gotta say it is an awesome shooter. I also own a cva optima elite with a 270 and 50 caliber bergara barrels. The 270 will shoot moa all day at 100 yards and the muzzleloader barrel shoots just as well. If the "unsafe junk" can stand up to high pressure smokeless loads, I am not too worried about a muzzleloader barrel The 50 caliber bergara barrel will shoot much better than a 2 inch group at 100 yards all day long. My nephew carries it and hunts with it. If there was any chance it was not as safe as any other gun I own it would be gone. I got rid if a 209x50 encore barrel because it would not shoot as well as my huntsman or the optima elite. I still have my encore and only have a 7-08 barrel for it. I have been seriously contemplating trading it for an elite in 7-08 and a muzzleloading barrel. So take the Randy Wakeman story elsewhere cuz I aint buying it. Tough to believe a guy who is getting paid by the competition to do a field test on a gun.

Reese · « **Reply #22 on:** October 15, 2008, 05:30:17 AM »

Better? That would just be opinions.

I have a Huntsman and like it. I also have a Knight Wolverine and like that too.

Here is a new one for $110.

http://www.yeoldearcheryshoppe.com/knight-wolverine-p-7166.html

I don't have experience with that site or the exact model they are selling. I just throw this out there to say, look around, you might find something you didn't know you needed.

223dog · « **Reply #23 on:** October 15, 2008, 07:14:35 AM »

Thanks for the info and the opinions. I will keep looking and studying before I make a decision. I really just don't have a lot of money to go out and buy a new top of the line rifle. I don't even know if I would like to hunt during the muzzel loader seasons I really just want to give it a try. If I love it then I would go out and Buy a better rifle. If I didn't like it then I am only out 200 dollars and not 500. One thing is for sure I will no send my rifle to remington until they have all of their bugs worked out.

Swampman · « **Reply #24 on:** October 15, 2008, 07:46:46 AM »

The bugs have been worked out.

mparks · « **Reply #25 on:** October 15, 2008, 03:32:48 PM »

Why not look for a quality, used muzzleloader instead of settling for the least expensive brand new model? I only paid $200 for a used Knight DISC Elite. Of course, you have to look it over with a well-trained eye to make sure it hasn't been abused much like any used firearm. Even more important with a black powder gun though because of the corrosive nature of the powder.

The gun rack at my local shop looks like a time-line of the different models that have come and gone over the years.

mspaci · « **Reply #26 on:** October 16, 2008, 07:37:26 AM »

I got a brand new disc elite from sportsmans guide when they discontinued them for $219. Best shooting rifle I ever owned. You couldnt buy it from me at any price. Look around for clearences & you will get a good deal. My buddy hunts with one of those wolverines & that is a heck of a deal for for a great rifle for $109. Mike

sabotloader · « **Reply #27 on:** October 16, 2008, 03:46:52 PM »

Swampman

Quote

Refering to Austin & Hallech - They proofed their own barrels, and they were good guns. Unfortunately they are no longer available.

I have two Austin & Halleck 320 - the early versions from Missouri - both of those barrels have the Spanish Proof mark on them and they are/were the same proof found on a CVA or Traditions barrel of the time. People loose the information thay do not want to hear - but it is a government require that any barrel exported out of Spain must have proof mark by the House of Ebar... The proof house charges the company by the amount of proof - they all chose the minimum proof as most American companies would do also - because they have down their own testing.

The really odd thing was when Randy was preaching "Spanish Barrels" he was taking money from and pushing Austin & Hallecks.... when I questioned him about it he said it was obvious from the construction of the A&H barrel it was far better than the proof...

To get right to it - Spain has been making ML's long before out time and ships them throughout Europe... In fact they make some really darn nice ones.... American companies chose to import the least expensive models they could to undercut the one made in America... welcome to capitolism... labeling all Spanish barrel unsafe is unfare - because they are not if you believe in Randy W. why has - he is still waiting for his pot of gold to come from his revelations...

sabotloader · « **Reply #28 on:** October 16, 2008, 03:57:44 PM »

223dog

I honestly do not know the price off the top of my head... but I really believe the Knight "Bighorn" might be a great answer... it is a real plain jane gun with all the capabilities...

There certainly has been a lot of positive feedback on the CVA Wolf also, another plain jane - but I still believe the Bighorn to be a better all around gun.

I would not be afraid to purchase a CVA or a Traditions and use it for hunting as long as you follow the guidelines in the manual for the proper operation. The only thing I would propose to you CVA only allows 100 grains of loose powder while with the Traditions you can use more in their newer guns 130 grains of T7, course same goes for the Bighorn....

Ouch - just looked up some prices on the Big Horn - above your budget so cross it off...

Swampman · « **Reply #29 on:** October 16, 2008, 03:58:47 PM »

CVA & Traditions muzzleloaders have never had any proof marks. That's because they aren't proofed. Austin & Halleck proofed their barrels at their own facility in the US. Soft extruded barrels are pretty much hydraulic tubing. As long as you don't shoot over 100 grains of loose powder in them, you are probably safe.

All this info is available through Google search.

Randy is making really good money these days. You'll note the links to his site on the Savage web site.