Author Topic: Is there a better muzzel loader out their for $180 (Read 3949 times)

sabotloader · « **Reply #30 on:** October 16, 2008, 04:41:31 PM »

Swampman

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CVA & Traditions muzzleloaders have never had any proof marks. That's because they aren't proofed.

You are incorrect - all barrels shipped from Spain are required to be proofed marked by the House of Eibar... The barrels i have - a CVA Firebolt and the two A&H's both have these proof marks. The test proof stamped on the barrel are considered very low but they are proofed and meet the export requirements. But then again maybe you are correct - not all barrels actually are proofed... they are all stamped - but an equation is computed to actually test a small quanity of those actually produced... same thing we do here....

Here is an excert from Randy's on words that confirm they are proofed if he is your man...

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Unsafe Muzzleloaders?

By Randy Wakeman

It is a sad fact that many muzzleloaders produced today with Spanish barrels are marked with a pressure rating of 700 kp/cm² clearly stamped on the barrels. Relying on the ignorance of the muzzleloading community, aren't they are the most popular barrels sold in the USA today? The dirty secret is that the proof rating above is converted to psi by the following formula: kp/cm² x 14.22 = psi. Directly put, these barrels are factory marked to a maximum pressure of 9954 psi.

Those exact marking can be found on my A&H's

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Austin & Halleck proofed their barrels at their own facility in the US.

Actually that is incorrect also A&H's (when they moved to Utah) and White's both were tested by a private Utah rifle producing firm in Utah - Browning

In the end A&H even paid the addition funds to have the House of Eibar increase their proof mark on the A&H barrels... and remember that is an extruded barrel also...

Swampman · « **Reply #31 on:** October 16, 2008, 04:56:46 PM »

I yield to sabotloader. I respect his knowledge. A&H muzzleloaders are safe because they were proofed in Utah. As to what I suppose could technically be considered proof marks on other Spanish made muzzleloaders, they are at best woefully inadequate and at worst criminal.

I respect Randy's work. I think he very knowledgeable. If he was wrong, a lawsuit would have shut him down a long time ago. It hasn't, and I'm glad.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #32 on:** October 16, 2008, 05:04:32 PM »

theres a guy over on another forum thats from germany and he said that all muzzleloaders imported have to be able to handle 136 (i believe he said) of powder in order to be legal in germany.

He shoots the traditions deerslayer i think its called.

sabotloader · « **Reply #33 on:** October 16, 2008, 05:21:12 PM »

Swampman

Actually no need to yeild... at all - I have just been around this bock personally several years ago directly with Randy and A&H.... Those guns were really good... the extruded barrels as you have indicated before were not always equal diameter up and down the bore - but there is no regulation in muzzleloading that says they have to be....

Randy never was able to settle a public law suit to vindicate his specualtion - but he did indirectly/directly cause BPI & Even Traditions to look at their business practices... also remember that he really tried to sink the Rem 700ml also because he got upset with Remington with his request to test a Rem ML at the time.

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As to what I suppose could technically be considered proof marks on other Spanish made muzzleloaders, they are at best woefully inadequate and at worst criminal.

I can not argue the "woefully inadequate" statement because on the surface they were... but "criminal" I can not agree at least not the Spanish barrel maker - it was American Business men BPI (an American Company) that brokered the deal with the Spanish barrel makers to get the product into the US as cheaply as they could. Further I believe that those same business men recieved assurances - written and guaranteed, from the barrel maker that the barrels were safe.... Remember - CVA did not go out of business because of barrel problems... it was a breech plug problem that caused their demise...

And one last point Traditions has escaped all of these problems, not the suspicions, but the problems

I drive a ford PU but my wife drives a Subaru... I like buying American when I can but what is American anymore... we can not even afford to make things here anymore between the EPA and our demand for wages - but if we didn't demand the wages we could not afford to live here.... ONE VERY BIG VICIOUS CIRCLE - hope we figure it out some daybefore my grand kids get caught up in it.

alsaqr · « **Reply #34 on:** October 17, 2008, 03:24:11 PM »

No one has ever proven to me that a CVA gun newer than 1999 has ever blown up using the recommended load of BP or BP substitute. Where is the photographic proof of all these blown up CVA guns? It sure as heck is not on the net. Show me some documented photos of some CVA guns that blew up using a documented, recommended by CVA, load of BP or a substitute. A friend and i took a CVA Stag Horn Magnum gun and loaded it with 175 grains of 777 and a 300 grain PTX bullet in the red sabot. Fired the gun remotely: It did not blow up. We repeated the test three times.

Me thinks that those guys who sued CVA when their newer than 1999 guns blew up used smokeless powder. Personally i am aware of two different muzzleloaders that blew up when novice BP shooters used smokeless powder. In one case a Knight Disc rifle barrel split when the guy loaded it with a quantity of IMR 3031. He thought he could get away with it because his buddy fired the same load in his Savage. A guy i have hunted with blew up a conventional muzzleloader using smokeless powder when he was a teenager. The barrel blew out at the tenon dovetail. Neither shooter was seriously injured.

bubba · « **Reply #35 on:** October 17, 2008, 04:05:39 PM »

swampman know what I find funny. Here you are running down the cva's and traditions and in the cva forum you are giving advice as what to shoot in an optima elite. Why would you give advice on one forum and run them down on another?

?

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #36 on:** October 17, 2008, 04:36:37 PM »

Not to mention the # of cva's he owns himself.

Swampman · « **Reply #37 on:** October 18, 2008, 12:42:04 AM »

Quote from: bubba on October 17, 2008, 04:05:39 PM

swampman know what I find funny. Here you are running down the cva's and traditions and in the cva forum you are giving advice as what to shoot in an optima elite. Why would you give advice on one forum and run them down on another??

I gave what I considered a max safe load. That seems like good advise. Chances are if you can keep pressures low you'll be ok. I have owned 4 or 5 CVAs. They were all accurate.

Life is full of calculated risk.

Stress · « **Reply #38 on:** October 18, 2008, 02:37:34 AM »

Is it OK to post an answer to the original question? If so, Cabelas has a sale on the Remington Genesis muzzleloader with a stainless steel barrel for $199.99. Cabelas has free shipping on orders over $150.00 through October 20Th. Remington has a rebate for $35.00 on this rifle. That will give you a total cost delivered of $164.99. I own this rifle and it will shoot very well. My rifle will shoot one inch groups at 75 yards with loose triple seven and hornady 300 grain SST.
Stress

Swampman · « **Reply #39 on:** October 18, 2008, 06:08:12 AM »

If you like a Traditions rifle, the Remington Genesis .50 Blue/Black Rifle is $134.99 (at Cabela's)and you'd still get the $35 Mail-In Rebate Offer. The stainless are sold out and you cannot backorder. I'm thinking the new Remington Gensis won't be imported much longer.

$100.00 is cheap!

sabotloader · « **Reply #40 on:** October 18, 2008, 06:32:59 AM »

[Swampman

Just not sure i would invest in the Genesis even at that price..... with that + some more you might find an even better something...

Swampman · « **Reply #41 on:** October 18, 2008, 06:37:53 AM »

I agree, I was just posting it for someone who wants a really cheap gun. I'm thinking the Genesis is not long for this world. I wish Remington would build a smokeless muzzleloading bolt gun like the Savage for around $500.00.

bubba · « **Reply #42 on:** October 18, 2008, 06:54:21 AM »

well if you have not shot one or do not think they are safe why give out advice? That is like saying that a car is unsafe but if you keep it under 45 miles per hour it should be ok. Just makes no sense.

Swampman · « **Reply #43 on:** October 18, 2008, 07:13:17 AM »

At least until November it's still a free country. I try not to give more info than what was asked for.

For instance.

Man approaches another man (and a dog) on the porch.

Will your dog bite?

Nope

Man reaches down to pet dog and gets bitten.

Man says I thought you said your dog didn't bite.

That's not my dog.

Personally I wouldn't own or shoot a Spanish made gun because I feel they are unsafe.

The question was what's a good load for a CVA Optima Elite

I just answered the question that was asked.

I've never seen an inline that wouldn't shoot fantastic groups with 80 grains of loose. I also believe it's below the 10,000 psi mark that's theoretically safe in Spanish made inlines.

bubba · « **Reply #44 on:** October 18, 2008, 08:26:48 AM »

but if you dont own one how do you know whats a good load? why not rant on the cva forum how unsafe they are rather than give a load you have no clue about? yeah it s a free country and advice is free. Most times that is exactly what it is worth.

Swampman · « **Reply #45 on:** October 18, 2008, 08:43:28 AM »

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but if you dont own one how do you know whats a good load?

I explained that.

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why not rant on the cva forum how unsafe they are

That wouldn't be polite

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give a load you have no clue about?

Once again it's an excellent load. If you don't believe me try it.

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yeah it s a free country and advice is free. Most times that is exactly what it is worth.

We couldn't agree more on this. That why I carefully check what I read against known sources. I highy recomend others do likewise.

buffermop · « **Reply #46 on:** October 18, 2008, 08:59:55 AM »

Spampman, Why is it you have the Remington seal on your avatar, but you condemn the Remington Genesis ML? I have one of these and except for the weight and crappy finish, it shoots in the pack with the rest of them.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #47 on:** October 18, 2008, 09:07:56 AM »

because the remington genesis is made by Traditions. Im sure he doesn't like the Russian made Remingtons either.

Swampman · « **Reply #48 on:** October 18, 2008, 01:35:38 PM »

Actually I kinda like the former Soviet Block made Remingtons. They appear well made and safe to shoot.

It not so much where somethings made, as how it's made. I drive Jap cars because they are the best cars I can afford. They are safe & well made.

tbone · « **Reply #49 on:** November 12, 2008, 10:50:44 AM »

Just bought a Blue/Black Rem Genesis at Cabela's for $135 less a $30 store coupon less a $35 rebate. That's less than $80 with sales tax. Threw a Cabela's Pine Ridge 3-9x40 on it for another $45(1/2 off) and quick detach bases for $35. To cheap to pass up for sure.

I will update after some range time if it was indeed the deal of the century or if I got what I paid for.

AndyHass · « **Reply #50 on:** November 13, 2008, 09:02:47 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on October 16, 2008, 03:58:47 PM

All this info is available through Google search.

So you read it on the internet, it MUST be true....good grief.

I did some things testing ideas to a Traditions barrel that would have blown a sub-par gun much less "hydraulic tubing". Get over it. You know nothing and can provide no actual evidence.

If in fact these guns are so dangerous, and you are so adept at using Google, post for us all the actual reports of them blowing up. There should be plenty to choose from if you are correct.