Author Topic: steel gun lettering  (Read 4145 times)

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Offline Blaster

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2008, 11:17:40 AM »
My little beer can "Siege Mortar".  Sorry, didn't have room for a powder can for scale. Bought this mortar at a Colorado gun show quite a few years ago.  Has a one-inch sub-chamber. 


Graduate of West Point (West Point, Iowa that is)

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2008, 05:06:54 PM »
     and7barton,   Glad to see you are practicing.  We used lots of copper and brass strips to practice on to get accuracy before depth.  It looks like Blaster did a nice job on his mortar.  The characters are nicely spaced, the bottom of each on a line concentric to the bore, and also oriented so that the center-line of each character is on a radial line emanating from the bore's center.  Attention to detail and practice with the tools produce a good looking job.  Accuracy first, depth later. 

Good luck,

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline and7barton

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2008, 01:31:00 AM »
     and7barton,   Glad to see you are practicing.  We used lots of copper and brass strips to practice on to get accuracy before depth.  It looks like Blaster did a nice job on his mortar.  The characters are nicely spaced, the bottom of each on a line concentric to the bore, and also oriented so that the center-line of each character is on a radial line emanating from the bore's center.  Attention to detail and practice with the tools produce a good looking job.  Accuracy first, depth later. 

Good luck,

Tracy and Mike

I'm still having trouble getting the characters upright and aligned with one another. Any hints on solving that problem ?
The indentation of the characters, I'm doing well with; I've also got the hang fairly well of giving certain characters less impact (Such as "I", and "."), so they are consistent in depth with the others.
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2008, 03:51:27 AM »
     We would be happy to explain this alignment issue.  You did not mention spacing so, although it's very dangerous to assume anything, we will assume that you know the spacing can only be controlled by "layout" of the character positions by coloring the metal and then scribing lines. 

     The "uprightness" and "alignment" of your impressions can be controlled with a device known in the US as a sight gage.  A sight gage is any gadget which can assist with tool alignment or position and always requires use of the artisan's eye to effect such. 

     Most frequently we use a simple piece of printer paper to make these gages.  On a sheet of paper make an evenly spaced, the width of your stamp, grid with 12 to 24 intersecting points.  All lines should be parallel or perpendicular to each other.  With a compass, pencil a 1" dia. circle around a few of the intersecting points and cut the paper, from the point, out to the corners of the square.  Draw two lines bisecting the first circle you will use.  These will align your stamp when it's pushed through the paper cut X, when you sight it's alignment lines so that they line up with you layout lines.  Now cut out the first disk and place it on your steel stamp about 3/16" up from the stamping end.  Sorry that this sounds so complicated; it is not really complicated after you make just one.  After using the first one on a practice plate lightly, you can adjust it by rotating the paper disk slightly and gluing it with a half drop of household glue.

Good luck,

Mike and Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline and7barton

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2008, 04:04:15 AM »
Thanks for that - Of course, the thing I want to do is to have a ring of lettering around the muzzle, on the muzzle face. I was figuring that I could make a paper template that I can tape to the muzzle, with the letters printed on it, then punch through the paper on the first strike of each letter, then remove the paper for subsequent strikes onto the same letters. My chief problem is lining up the verticality of each letter, they are tending to rotate left or right a bit, but I guess if I can mark a line around the muzzle bore, I could perhaps line up the square lower side of the die against that line.
It's tricky.
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
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Offline Terry C.

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2008, 07:15:02 AM »
Not sure how, or even if, this can be adapted to this application, but in my younger days I was once given the job of producing a limited number of instrument panels for the prototype logging equipment we were constructing. These had to be stamped, not labeled as the final production pieces would end up. These were exposition units, they had to look like they were machine stamped.

I built a series of stamping fixtures using 1/8" stamps with 1/4" square shanks because that was the size lettering we needed, but this method could be adapted to any size stamp. These would slide over the panel and reach completely from one side to the other, with a slot the width of the stamps and a heavy plate underneath to back up the panel. Then I cut a series of spacers using 1/4" square keystock, which were shorter than the stamps. Enough to stack, side by side, the full width of the workpiece. The slot length was adjusted to fit the stack of spacers, with just enough clearance for the spacers to be removed and replaced by hand.

I would start with all spacers stacked in the slot. Using masking tape, I would write out the desired text using the spacers as guides. Then it was a simple matter of pulling out a spacer and replacing it with the desired letter. Because the entire length of the slot was filled with spacers, I could position the text anywhere within the span of the fixture.

The fixture would have to be reset for each line (often just a single word), but the end result looked very good after the plate was buffed.

Because the stamp was 'trapped' multiple strikes (if even necessary) were guaranteed to line up, and the shank was always perpendicular to the work.

It's the human element that makes the hand-stamped lettering difficult and sometimes unsightly. A good stamp can only make as good an impression than the hand that holds it.

Offline and7barton

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2008, 07:29:52 AM »
That's an interesting piece of advice. I'll have to think about how to apply it to a ring of lettering.
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline and7barton

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2008, 08:08:09 AM »
Not sure how, or even if, this can be adapted to this application, but in my younger days I was once given the job of producing a limited number of instrument panels for the prototype logging equipment we were constructing. These had to be stamped, not labeled as the final production pieces would end up. These were exposition units, they had to look like they were machine stamped.

I built a series of stamping fixtures using 1/8" stamps with 1/4" square shanks because that was the size lettering we needed, but this method could be adapted to any size stamp. These would slide over the panel and reach completely from one side to the other, with a slot the width of the stamps and a heavy plate underneath to back up the panel. Then I cut a series of spacers using 1/4" square keystock, which were shorter than the stamps. Enough to stack, side by side, the full width of the workpiece. The slot length was adjusted to fit the stack of spacers, with just enough clearance for the spacers to be removed and replaced by hand.

I would start with all spacers stacked in the slot. Using masking tape, I would write out the desired text using the spacers as guides. Then it was a simple matter of pulling out a spacer and replacing it with the desired letter. Because the entire length of the slot was filled with spacers, I could position the text anywhere within the span of the fixture.

The fixture would have to be reset for each line (often just a single word), but the end result looked very good after the plate was buffed.

Because the stamp was 'trapped' multiple strikes (if even necessary) were guaranteed to line up, and the shank was always perpendicular to the work.

It's the human element that makes the hand-stamped lettering difficult and sometimes unsightly. A good stamp can only make as good an impression than the hand that holds it.

A good bit of advice, except for the fact that these big dies I have, are considerably wider than the actual letters they stamp. I tried stamping a test letter on a bit of scrap steel, then with my left hand firmly holding the letter down into the stamping that it had created, I placed the next letter's die hard up against it with my right hand, then carefully removed the already-used die, and picked up the hammer, then whacked die No 2, and continued like that. The result was that the letters were nicely and evenly spaced, but much too far apart. They were each seperated by approximately a full letter-width of fresh air. The "up-and-down" position problem, I've solved, by clamping (or taping), a strip of 1/4" thick wood along the line I want the letter to run, the wood being sufficiently thick so that the lower flat side of the die can be pressed against it. The positioning in that respect is now perfect. I think, in order to make a ring of letters around the muzzle face, I could tape a wooden disc in place (perhaps with a cylindrical wooden plug glued on the underside which would enter the bore of the barrel and locate the disc centrally).
So the problem remains of getting the letter spacing consistent and close enough together.
Perhaps if I followed your system but made the blank keystock inserts narrower (by perhaps 50%) than the actual letter dies, then they would imprint the letter closer together ?
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2008, 09:08:39 AM »
Watervliet Arsenal. Note stamps. Appears to be cleaning up with a small hammer and graver. Looks like an activity done by a master craftsman with years of experience.

Max





Max

Offline and7barton

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2008, 09:25:20 AM »
Ah !   - I can see where I've been going wrong -
I was using the wrong-shaped hammer, and I should have had a little mad woman sitting nearby !
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2008, 11:20:36 AM »
Post removed
Max

Offline and7barton

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2008, 11:28:04 AM »
The fella by the muzzle is obviously the lettering expert, hence his smug expression.
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline rays89

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2008, 02:40:00 PM »
I have been watching this post for sometime because it is coincidental I was having the Irishman cut me a barrel with a muzzle stamp while this post has been going on.


Its for an unauthentic brass passot gun http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,152037.30.html

Offline and7barton

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2008, 11:54:50 AM »
I've come up with a little design for a device that will enable lettering to be punched around my muzzle face. It will also rotate each letter to the correct angle and also maintain a constant distance from the bore centre. The letter die is simply dropped into the square holder. The big plug fits into the muzzle and the whole assembly can be rotated around. The plug should fit a bit snugger than shown in the drawing so it doesn't rattle around. Equidistant pencil lines should be marked on the muzzle face, radiating from the centreline of the bore. A little point welded to the end of the arm is simply lined up with each pencil line in turn to give the correct spacing of the letters.
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline Rickk

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2008, 01:53:05 AM »
I use a similar home made tool for making straight lines on brass plates. The tool holder is a piece of square tubing that the dies slide into.

When I make the tool, I realized that when they forge the letter into the end of teh stamping dies, the previously square and uniform square stock that they start with is no longer square and uniform. It swells in spots and bends a little bit as well. It took me several hours with a grinder to square up all the deformations on the handles of the dies to make them all fit in my fixture.

I guess I could have just made a bigger fixture, but some square tubing that I had hanking around had pretty much perfect dimensions to accept the square die stock with just enough extra room for clearance. It was easier to just square up the dies on a grinder rather than make a special bigger square thingy to hold them. In the end, the alighnment is probably much more uniform as well.

Make sure that your alighnment tool makes it easy to see the letters already produced and where the die is going to make the next letter. That will help you visually with proper spacing (which you already know varies from letter to letter).

Also, your die set will have idnetification letters stamped into the shaft of each die. Make sure that the orientation betwwen the identification letter and the actuall working end is the same on each die. I have die sets in three different sizes, both letters and numbers. I think ther are 3 or 4 of them that they screwed up on and marked different from the rest... it can really mess you up if you are not aware of this.

Also, once you have done your thing with a hammer and taken a die off the piece, resist the temptation to "touch something up" if at all possible. It is pretty rare that the tool will wind up in the same exact place. Most attempts to "fix things" by hitting it more result in making it worse rather than better.

Practice alot on someting first !

Rick

Offline and7barton

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2008, 02:32:51 AM »

Also, your die set will have idnetification letters stamped into the shaft of each die. Make sure that the orientation betwwen the identification letter and the actuall working end is the same on each die. I have die sets in three different sizes, both letters and numbers. I think ther are 3 or 4 of them that they screwed up on and marked different from the rest... it can really mess you up if you are not aware of this.
Rick

The 1/2" set of dies I have, don't have any I.D. markings on the side. I have to check out the orientation by actually looking at the letter shape itself. However, in their favour, the sides seem to be very straight.
I'll definately get lots of practise in (I am doing this already). I'm also considering a trigger-released weight that will slide down a steel tube onto the die, giving an exactly vertical and consistent hit every time.
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline Victor3

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2008, 03:05:01 AM »
I've come up with a little design for a device that will enable lettering to be punched around my muzzle face. It will also rotate each letter to the correct angle and also maintain a constant distance from the bore centre. The letter die is simply dropped into the square holder. The big plug fits into the muzzle and the whole assembly can be rotated around. The plug should fit a bit snugger than shown in the drawing so it doesn't rattle around. Equidistant pencil lines should be marked on the muzzle face, radiating from the centreline of the bore. A little point welded to the end of the arm is simply lined up with each pencil line in turn to give the correct spacing of the letters.


 Best idea yet.

 Just make sure that the figures formed on your particular stamps are centered on their shanks, and are straight in relation to the square shape of the shanks. If they were manufactured off-center or out of square, the error of the tool will be transferred to your workpiece.

 
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline and7barton

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2008, 03:28:39 AM »


 Best idea yet.

 Just make sure that the figures formed on your particular stamps are centered on their shanks, and are straight in relation to the square shape of the shanks. If they were manufactured off-center or out of square, the error of the tool will be transferred to your workpiece.

 
[/quote]

I was a bit concerned about how well they are centred. I think these are Chinese-made; but they look to the naked eye accurately-placed on the die end. I have a nice steel billet and a piece of pipe it will slide down without rattling loosely inside it. If I can weld it directly to that arm and perpendicularly to it too, then it should perform well. I can introduce the dies through the underside of the square guide tube so the weight-slide pipe can be welded securely to the arm. Obviously, to change dies, we'd need to lift up the entire device to pop them in from underneath, then lower back down onto the muzzle face, then rotate around to line up with my pencil marked divisions.
I'll be modifying and tweaking the idea before I reach for my hacksaw.

Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2008, 01:49:07 PM »
I'm also considering a trigger-released weight that will slide down a steel tube onto the die, giving an exactly vertical and consistent hit every time.

This will not be as good an idea as it sounds as you need to hit the small letters with less force than the large letters.  An I needs less force than an M to get the same depth of impression.  Periods need less force than an I.
GG
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Offline and7barton

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2008, 12:14:32 AM »
I'm also considering a trigger-released weight that will slide down a steel tube onto the die, giving an exactly vertical and consistent hit every time.

This will not be as good an idea as it sounds as you need to hit the small letters with less force than the large letters.  An I needs less force than an M to get the same depth of impression.  Periods need less force than an I.

Yes....I have noticed the difference. Meantime I'll put together the alignment device and practise using it with hand strikes on scrap.
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline Victor3

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2008, 02:08:27 AM »
Watervliet Arsenal. Note stamps. Appears to be cleaning up with a small hammer and graver. Looks like an activity done by a master craftsman with years of experience.

Max







 They all look about half drunk. Must be after quittin' time.

 As far as "a master craftsman with years of experience" goes, Yup, he can even do it without looking!
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Sherlock Holmes

Offline Terry C.

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2008, 05:50:44 PM »
They all look about half drunk. Must be after quittin' time.

Probably dead tired. Didn't they work 27 hours days back then?

Of course that doesn't include walking 20 miles, in the snow, to and from work every day, uphill both ways...

 :) :D ;D

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2008, 06:52:08 PM »
     Maybe they lived right across the Hudson River in Troy, NY where it really IS UPHILL BOTH WAYS, especially in the winter!  I've seen cars with all wheels locked, actually gain speed going down some of Troy's steep, snowy streets.

T&M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline and7barton

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2008, 08:24:59 PM »
I'll admit - They certainly WERE tough in those days, but I maintain that the woman is still mad.
I've just also noticed the set of dies - Lower right-hand corner !
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline Victor3

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2008, 09:48:58 PM »
...but I maintain that the woman is still mad.


 I agree, but if you were a young attractive woman working with three winos for 27 hours a day, you might have trouble hanging onto all your marbles too, eh? Give the girl a break...
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline and7barton

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2008, 09:25:03 AM »
Here's the new barrel - awaiting an attack on that smooth muzzle face.
Founder in 1986 of Historical Artillery Corps, later changed to Historical Artillery UK.
Builder of Cannons and models for South-Western Artillery, Fort Amhurst, Coalhouse Fort and private commissions.
Technical Consultant for two episodes of Scrapheap Challenge. Ex Pyrotechnic Safety Officer at Coalhouse Fort. I go trekking and survivalist camping - build experimental tents and survival equipment - caving.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2008, 11:02:12 AM »
Frankly it looks to me that the two figures on the right have been electronically added to the original image.
GG
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Offline and7barton

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2008, 12:46:31 PM »
Frankly it looks to me that the two figures on the right have been electronically added to the original image.

Actually, you have a point there. Isn't that Rock Hudson ?
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Offline dominick

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2008, 03:12:16 PM »
I stamped a few muzzle faces by centering and tack welding a 3/4" long ring of tubing of the proper diameter to the muzzle.  Then lay the stamps against the tube ring and align it and tap very lightly. If it's straight, the stamp will set back into the impression for a heavier hammer blow.  If it's off a little, it can be adjusted and re-struck and it will set into a new alignment position. If it's off a lot, weld over the mis-aligned letter, sand smooth and start over.  If it's a brass barrel and you mess up you would probably have to lathe turn the muzzle face to remove the mis-aligned letter and then start again.  A good quality stamp set is important.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: steel gun lettering
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2008, 09:36:16 AM »
Isn't that Rock Hudson ?

I don't think so but the face is vaguely familiar.  I can't tell you who it is though; I'm not a movie person.
GG
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