steel gun lettering

[and7barton]

Does anyone know of a method of creating lettering and numbering around my barrel muzzle (it's made of EN1a), without breaking my bank, like in this picture.

[Victor3]

 I have a 3/8 steel stamp set (letters & numbers) I bought second hand for about $15 some years back.

 Probably plenty of them on ebay for cheap.

[and7barton]

I have a few sets of numbers and letters, but all too small.
I need them 1/2 inch tall. Were the originals chiselled into the steel ? - Some of them look too sharply-defined to be part of the casting.

[seacoastartillery]

      After studying thousands of cannon from one end of the United States to the other, Mike and I can say with some authority that we have never seen lettering on a cannon which has been chiseled or engraved or incised.  All have been stamped with the rare exception of a battle trophy which bears some special engraving placed on the tube after it has been taken from the field as a prize or trophy.

     New steel stamps with plain style letters and numbers are not expensive here, even in 1/2 inch size.  The custom 19th century stamps we have made for the cannon we make are VERY expensive.  If you don't need to re-create authentic impressions from a certain era, they are unnecessary.

     We like your photos; your cannon are very interesting.  Good luck with those characters!

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

[cannonmn]

After studying thousands of cannon from one end of the United States to the other, Mike and I can say with some authority that we have never seen lettering on a cannon which has been chiseled or engraved or incised.  All have been stamped with the rare exception of a battle trophy which bears some special engraving placed on the tube after it has been taken from the field as a prize or trophy.

I have no doubt that you've come to that conclusion honestly, but have you read Olmstead/Stark article that comes to a different conclusion?  Ed Olmstead found a picture of some cannons being inspected during the Civil War, which included some engraver's tools being used in the process.  This article appeared in THE ARTILLERYMAN.

I've also heard from some friends on the topic.  They were attempting to re-create large "U.S" on a mortar as I recall.  They were certain it needed to be engraved and did so.  First, steel stamps would be used to create the letter outline and location, but since you cannot produce the required depth of the letter with a hammer-driven steel stamp, the shallow impression is then cut to the required depth by an engraver.

[and7barton]

      After studying thousands of cannon from one end of the United States to the other, Mike and I can say with some authority that we have never seen lettering on a cannon which has been chiseled or engraved or incised.  All have been stamped with the rare exception of a battle trophy which bears some special engraving placed on the tube after it has been taken from the field as a prize or trophy.

     New steel stamps with plain style letters and numbers are not expensive here, even in 1/2 inch size.  The custom 19th century stamps we have made for the cannon we make are VERY expensive.  If you don't need to re-create authentic impressions from a certain era, they are unnecessary.

     We like your photos; your cannon are very interesting.  Good luck with those characters!

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

Can you generate enough pressure to stamp 1/2 inch letters using dies ?
I'm thinking of characters like i've pictured here.

[dan610324]

how deep do you need them to be ??
you can easily have an depth of 1/16" with an 1/2" stamp ,
I dont believe you need it any deeper .

but that is with modern hardened tool steel stamps , probably was different 150 years ago .

it all depend on how big hammer you have ,
and how sure you are to hit the stamp and not your fingers  

[and7barton]

how deep do you need them to be ??
you can easily have an depth of 1/16" with an 1/2" stamp ,
I dont believe you need it any deeper .

but that is with modern hardened tool steel stamps , probably was different 150 years ago .

it all depend on how big hammer you have ,
and how sure you are to hit the stamp and not your fingers  

I'm very skilled at hitting my fingers; it's taken a lifetime of practise - I now manage to miss the die around 20% of the time, and as I get older, my score is increasing.
I'd like to be able to achieve the style and width of lettering shown on this trunnion - It's pretty wide as well as pretty deep. Can this be done with a fine engraving chisel and lots of patience ?
I don't know exactly how deep these characters are, but they must be at least 1 mm.
My engineer friends reckon it's a cinch with modern CNC equipment, but they obviously never had that kind of stuff back then. Getting this done by modern equipment would cost me heavy money.

[Double D]

Well the ones on the end of the trunnion are machine stamped with a Die. The muzzle stamp also appears to be a machine stamp. Roll stamps and stamping machines is not a new technology

[dan610324]

but a few months ago I started making experiments on bronze castings
I got 1200 lbs of antique lead types from an old printing shop .

many different styles , many antique styles , extremely beautiful .
I made some casting experiments , I heated the lead letter in boiling water and used it to produce an stamped letter in the wax original and then have the letter visible directly in the casting .
the result was perfect . they look perfectly like if they should have been stamped into the bronze .
and now I have lots of different styles I can use , would have cost extreme amounts to have had all those styles produced as steel stamps .
but ok its only possible to use on bronze castings

[and7barton]

but a few months ago I started making experiments on bronze castings
I got 1200 lbs of antique lead types from an old printing shop .

many different styles , many antique styles , extremely beautiful .
I made some casting experiments , I heated the lead letter in boiling water and used it to produce an stamped letter in the wax original and then have the letter visible directly in the casting .
the result was perfect . they look perfectly like if they should have been stamped into the bronze .
and now I have lots of different styles I can use , would have cost extreme amounts to have had all those styles produced as steel stamps .
but ok its only possible to use on bronze castings

I do have an electric hand-held engraving machine. I've no doubt it could engrave into EN1a, but the question is, can it do a tidy job ?  I'll have to experiment on a bit of cut-off bar.

[dan610324]

of course the engraving machine can .
but I would ask , can you ??
it will be extremely difficult to do it by hand and have an good looking result .

[and7barton]

of course the engraving machine can .
but I would ask , can you ??
it will be extremely difficult to do it by hand and have an good looking result .

I have a pretty steady hand - I used to make finely detailed models for museums, and I've made a number of plaster moulds by hand (for lead-casting), using very fine engraving tools, but my electric engraver is a rather jittery thing to handle. Maybe it could rough-cut the lettering and then I could go over it with a hand tool.
We'll practise on some scrap first. There's no going back if it makes a mess.

[dan610324]

I would try to find some cheap 1/2" stamps on ebay and first stamp it and then make some minor changes in style with the engraving machine .
that the style of letters and numbers will be more authentic than the new style stamps .

[GGaskill]

A significant problem with single character stamps is getting each impression the same.  It's hard to make an I the same depth as an M, for example. 

I don't know the UK market but having the lettering CNC cut shouldn't be all that expensive as the programs are software generated and the machine does all the work.  You should research it.

Here is a better image of the muzzle of my beercan mortar with its CNC cut lettering.



The SIC SEM was the first program, the PER the second and the TYRANNIS the third because the software generated only straight moves and the machine memory was too small to hold them all.  Apparently I didn't get the depth set quite the same for the PER as the others.

[and7barton]

A significant problem with single character stamps is getting each impression the same.  It's hard to make an I the same depth as an M, for example. 

I don't know the UK market but having the lettering CNC cut shouldn't be all that expensive as the programs are software generated and the machine does all the work.  You should research it.

I will, but meantime, I've purchased a set of 1/2 inch letter dies from Ebay.
I'll experiment on some steel.

[cannonmn]

It is very difficult to get the lines straight and stamps perfectly upright unless you use a fixture to hold the stamps in position.  I guess some people have the skill but I can't get stamps aligned correctly when I try it freehand.  I'd guess getting them perfectly aligned while trying to follow a curve would be that much more difficult.  Good luck.

[moose53]

A good trick is to lay out the numbers and letters on a paper template then glue the paper to the steel . Then use red lipstick on the stamp and press onto the paper to see exactly where the stamp will mark . Pay attention to the stamp orientation and if a stamp is too shallow you can hit it again. With time and care a vary good job can be done 

[seacoastartillery]

    Yes, we are aware of The Artilleryman article, and for years Mike and I both thought that almost all cannon characters were engraved, that is, until we actually experimented and duplicated simple, medium and very complex characters including naval anchors, etc. using a variety of STAMPING punches and dies.  We use hand tools, hydraulic powered multiple character dies and other special dies which are proprietary.  You can, however, do a very fine job with hand stamps, especially large ones like the 1/2 mentioned which are much, much easier to align than the smaller sizes like .040" or .060".  The most important technique comes from our gunsmith training and it is every bit as important as the carpenter's golden rule which is "Measure twice; cut once".  For accurate hand stamping you MUST select a hammer at least twice as heavy as you first think necessary for the job and use only moderate hammer blows for excellent control.  If you use a light hammer with heavy or violent blows, you will have no acceptable degree of control.  We use a 24 oz. ball peen on the large radius side for standard 1/8" stamps.  The second technique for cutting deep impressions is to use a heavy hammer with moderate to light blows and to "advance" or rotate the striking end of the stamp about 10 degrees with each blow, and then repeat the process, rotating in the opposite direction WITHOUT REMOVING THE STAMP FROM THE IMPRESSION until the correct depth is reached.  You must remove all "raised material" from your impression with a fine file, and polish the surface with a hard surface sanding block, no rubber blocks, please.

     You can compare original impressions made 150 years ago and some made by us using the stamping process by simply looking at the photo gallery labeled "Details" on our website via the banner above this board's home page.  Good luck.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

[GGaskill]

One other note about stamped lettering--the stamps raise a ridge around the impression as well as making the depression.  Taking some abrasive paper on a file and removing the ridge will make the lettering look better.  Try it on a scrap and see.

[Cannoneer]

I'd like to be able to achieve the style and width of lettering shown on this trunnion - It's pretty wide as well as pretty deep. Can this be done with a fine engraving chisel and lots of patience ?

And7barton,

There's no question that it can be done; but what distance of a learning curve would we have to travel before we reached the level of proficiency to do it?

I know you've already bought the letter stamps, but I've been pondering putting numbers, letters and figures on a steel barrel for some time now, although in a smaller scale. One of the forum members (I'm not sure but I think it was Wes) bought a metal etching machine and he said it worked pretty well. I was thinking of getting one of these (or having Wes do it) etching machines and then making the etching deeper and with sharper edges using a graver technique (chisel and hammer).
 http://www.etching-metal.com/etching/stainlessetching.htm

Seacoastartillery: Did you use steel stamps to make the markings on your 100 pdr Parrott rifle?

[and7barton]

   Yes, we are aware of The Artilleryman article, and for years Mike and I both thought that almost all cannon characters were engraved, that is, until we actually experimented and duplicated simple, medium and very complex characters including naval anchors, etc. using a variety of STAMPING punches and dies.  We use hand tools, hydraulic powered multiple character dies and other special dies which are proprietary.  You can, however, do a very fine job with hand stamps, especially large ones like the 1/2 mentioned which are much, much easier to align than the smaller sizes like .040" or .060".  The most important technique comes from our gunsmith training and it is every bit as important as the carpenter's golden rule which is "Measure twice; cut once".  For accurate hand stamping you MUST select a hammer at least twice as heavy as you first think necessary for the job and use only moderate hammer blows for excellent control.  If you use a light hammer with heavy or violent blows, you will have no acceptable degree of control.  We use a 24 oz. ball peen on the large radius side for standard 1/8" stamps.  The second technique for cutting deep impressions is to use a heavy hammer with moderate to light blows and to "advance" or rotate the striking end of the stamp about 10 degrees with each blow, and then repeat the process, rotating in the opposite direction WITHOUT REMOVING THE STAMP FROM THE IMPRESSION until the correct depth is reached.  You must remove all "raised material" from your impression with a fine file, and polish the surface with a hard surface sanding block, no rubber blocks, please.

     You can compare original impressions made 150 years ago and some made by us using the stamping process by simply looking at the photo gallery labeled "Details" on our website via the banner above this board's home page.  Good luck.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

I have several sets of smaller stamps, so I know the problems you mention - but you've given me some worthwhile advice there. I'll print this out - I've always used a little hammer, and usually missed.

[Victor3]

A good trick is to lay out the numbers and letters on a paper template then glue the paper to the steel . Then use red lipstick on the stamp and press onto the paper to see exactly where the stamp will mark . Pay attention to the stamp orientation and if a stamp is too shallow you can hit it again. With time and care a vary good job can be done 

 "I'm Victor3, and I approve this message" err... method (watching too many political ads lately).

 In other words, good advice moose53.

 CNC engraving can give excellent results. This is a practice piece I did while making a tag for my cat about 20 years ago. I added "NO MICE!" to it after I got the program right...



 The problem with doing CNC engraving on the muzzle of a cannon is the setup; you need a mill with enough Z axis travel, and fixturing to hold the muzzle perfectly level.

 Another option is to make a template and use a pantograph, but that has its problems too 

 You might look into a place that does trophy or plaque engraving. Maybe an undertaker could help you 

 By now, you may be leaning toward plain ol' steel stamps. I've found that for something that had to look good, another (very trusting) person to position the stamps while you whack them is helpful.

 One method you might consider in conjunction with steel stamps is to acid etch - After stamping, paint the surface with an asphalt coating, dig the stuff out of the lettering, apply a nitric acid solution to deepen the impressions.

[and7barton]

Maybe an undertaker could help you 

[/quote]

That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me for years.

[and7barton]

A significant problem with single character stamps is getting each impression the same.  It's hard to make an I the same depth as an M, for example. 

I don't know the UK market but having the lettering CNC cut shouldn't be all that expensive as the programs are software generated and the machine does all the work.  You should research it.

Here is a better image of the muzzle of my beercan mortar with its CNC cut lettering.



The SIC SEM was the first program, the PER the second and the TYRANNIS the third because the software generated only straight moves and the machine memory was too small to hold them all.  Apparently I didn't get the depth set quite the same for the PER as the others.

Love the picture - This is exactly the kind of appearance I need to my letters.

[Victor3]

Maybe an undertaker could help you 

That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me for years.


[/quote]

LOL!!!

[cannonmn]

See how it is easy to tell that someone just used metal stamps on this repro mountain howitzer-lack of depth, misalignment, wrong font, insufficient recessed area inside of characters, uneven depth (see "1863.")  My apologies to Heuco for borrowing his photo link from the other thread.

[and7barton]

   Yes, we are aware of The Artilleryman article, and for years Mike and I both thought that almost all cannon characters were engraved, that is, until we actually experimented and duplicated simple, medium and very complex characters including naval anchors, etc. using a variety of STAMPING punches and dies.  We use hand tools, hydraulic powered multiple character dies and other special dies which are proprietary.  You can, however, do a very fine job with hand stamps, especially large ones like the 1/2 mentioned which are much, much easier to align than the smaller sizes like .040" or .060".  The most important technique comes from our gunsmith training and it is every bit as important as the carpenter's golden rule which is "Measure twice; cut once".  For accurate hand stamping you MUST select a hammer at least twice as heavy as you first think necessary for the job and use only moderate hammer blows for excellent control.  If you use a light hammer with heavy or violent blows, you will have no acceptable degree of control.  We use a 24 oz. ball peen on the large radius side for standard 1/8" stamps.  The second technique for cutting deep impressions is to use a heavy hammer with moderate to light blows and to "advance" or rotate the striking end of the stamp about 10 degrees with each blow, and then repeat the process, rotating in the opposite direction WITHOUT REMOVING THE STAMP FROM THE IMPRESSION until the correct depth is reached.  You must remove all "raised material" from your impression with a fine file, and polish the surface with a hard surface sanding block, no rubber blocks, please.

     You can compare original impressions made 150 years ago and some made by us using the stamping process by simply looking at the photo gallery labeled "Details" on our website via the banner above this board's home page.  Good luck.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

Hi Again - Your advice was very good - I've been practising with my smaller dies (The 1/2" dies haven't arrived yet; they are coming from Germany), but I've got a set of around 1/4". I found a nice slab of steel around 3/8" thick X 2" X 5"..... sanded a portion of it smooth and shiny, then buffed it on my buffing wheel to virtualy a mirror finish. Then I used my short-handled heavy club hammer like you suggested - gave each die multiple hits, taking my time to get the die exactly right, then sanded with paper over a wooden block. Damn good !
I can't wait to get started with the real barrel and the big dies.

[Nasty Jack]

how deep do you need them to be ??
you can easily have an depth of 1/16" with an 1/2" stamp ,
I dont believe you need it any deeper .

but that is with modern hardened tool steel stamps , probably was different 150 years ago .

it all depend on how big hammer you have ,
and how sure you are to hit the stamp and not your fingers 

I'm very skilled at hitting my fingers; it's taken a lifetime of practise - I now manage to miss the die around 20% of the time, and as I get older, my score is increasing.
I'd like to be able to achieve the style and width of lettering shown on this trunnion - It's pretty wide as well as pretty deep. Can this be done with a fine engraving chisel and lots of patience ?
I don't know exactly how deep these characters are, but they must be at least 1 mm.
My engineer friends reckon it's a cinch with modern CNC equipment, but they obviously never had that kind of stuff back then. Getting this done by modern equipment would cost me heavy money.

Engraving is a complex operation. (NO, I didn't read the whole thread. This may have been covered.)

Engraving entails using a cutting tool and literally carving or incising a cut into the stock. If you can't manage a hammer, you're not going to be able to manage an engraving tool. Google is sure to have a discussion.

Your lettering on the cannon muzzle is stamped. That's evident from the photo. With the larger stampings, you have the option to position the stamp on the stock, make an impression, adjust the stamp angle and repeat the strike to clean up the impression.

But like any tool work, it takes some skill, an eye, and dexterity.

The font face on the trunnion lettering "Armstrong" is nice! I love looking at the lettering on old machines.

[and7barton]

Lots of practice is necessary !
I'm getting busy improving my stamping technique.