Author Topic: Why a 30-06? (Read 8181 times)

Sweet 6.5 · « **on:** October 18, 2008, 07:13:41 AM »

Hi

A question for 30-06 users:

I looked at the difference between the .308 and the 30-06 bullet speeds. It looks like just about 100 to 150 fps faster in 150gr and 180gr bullets.
Does that 100 fps make a differrence. I know if you reload you can go faster in the 30-06 but that is also true for the .308.
Why take the extra recoil and cost if you only use it with the ligher bullets?

I know with the heavier bullets the 30-06 is better.

Cheers
Sweet

Slufoot · « **Reply #1 on:** October 18, 2008, 07:24:14 AM »

I have 308's and 30-06's. The '06 operates at lower pressures than the 308 and this might be worth thinking about for some types of firearms.
I have a Browning BAR and a Handi-Rifle in '06. I like the fact that these actions are subject to a little less pressure.

Swampman · « **Reply #2 on:** October 18, 2008, 07:36:44 AM »

The recoil is the same. Why give up the 100-150 fps? Using modern ammo, the .30-06 equals the .300H&H but it's much easier to find ammo for.

The .30-06 is just as accurate as the .308.

It will retain down range velocity longer.

The .308 makes sense in a semi-automatic for which it was designed. The cartridges are just a tad lighter & shorter as are the rifles.

I see no logical reason to choose the .308 over the .30-06 in a bolt action or a single shot.

The .30-06 is the finest cartridge in the world.

tracker370 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 18, 2008, 09:37:33 AM »

If you read through these forums, you will find this discussion a thousand times. I would venture to say that 99.9% of the time, outdoorsmen choose the 30-06 compared to whatever other cartridge it is up against. Here are a few of the key points that swing the vote towards 30-06 every time:

-First and foremost, that cartridge has been killing things really well for over 100 years.

-You can find good, cheap ammo anywhere in north america in the greatest variety of bullet configurations.

-You can hunt anything in north america with it, from woodchucks to moose (I would not recommend it on dangerous bear, but I'm sure it's done regularly by guys in Alaska who's only gun is their grandpa's old Model 70.)

-Sky is the limit is you reload.

-Manageable recoil.

You just can't go wrong with the -06.

Cheers....

targshooter · « **Reply #4 on:** October 18, 2008, 09:57:42 AM »

If you reload or buy the so-called "magnum" factory loadings for the 06 (where it is loaded to higher pressures) you will realize the greater velocities the 06 offers over the .308 with the 180 grain and above weight bullets.

Luckyducker · « **Reply #5 on:** October 18, 2008, 11:22:34 AM »

If the buyer of this rifle is the guy that only hunts with one rifle,as I used to be before complete and irreversible insanity came over me, the 30/06 is probably the logical choice. If, on the other hand, you are just adding a 30 cal to a well stocked gun locker/safe then maybe the 308 will get-er-done, especially if the only game to be hunted with this rifle is deer or black bear and other animals that don't need the heavier slugs to put them down. I like both cartridges and see how they overlap each other for some applications but also see advantages of both that gives each of them a place against obscurity and obsolescence. You can't go wrong with either but make sure you choose the one for the right reasons and not because of a popularity contest.

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** October 18, 2008, 12:27:43 PM »

Actually there is no difference in recoil. The rifles for .308 are usually enough ligher than an '06 so that they recoil as much or more so than the average '06. Is the 100-150 fps you might gain in the '06 really of any real world value? Nope not really. What one will do so will the other. That's really why tho I've long wanted a .280 Remington I have instead always bought 7-08s. I like the rifles the shorter round comes in better so seem to always choose it as the small difference just isn't significant.

Dave in WV · « **Reply #7 on:** October 19, 2008, 04:51:03 AM »

My 30-06 loads have never been max so in all honesty I use a .308. BUT I can load it up and I can load 200-220 gr bullets and a 30-06 will have a better chance of shooting the over 180gr bullets accurately than the .308 due to the twist rate that's standard on the 30-06.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #8 on:** October 19, 2008, 12:53:13 PM »

I won't buy a .30-06 Cuz if I do I won't need anything else and I like new toys. An 06 will always work.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #9 on:** October 19, 2008, 03:05:08 PM »

As far as factory ammo is concerned, if they don't make it in 30.06, they just don't make it.

You can find: Barnes, Nosler, Sierra, Swift, Hornady, etc. etc, and the most widely available caliber is .06.

It's common, and commonality is a good thing IMO....

If an 06 won't do, then you need to go up in caliber IMO...

teddy12b · « **Reply #10 on:** October 19, 2008, 05:25:30 PM »

I have about three different loads that I've worked up in my 30-06 for three different purposes.

168gr matchking @ ~ 2600fps. It shoots well out to 1000 yards for long range shooting fun.

168gr Barnes Tipped TSX @ ~ 3000fps. It shoots about 1 MOA but it's lightning fast and if I ever go out west elk hunting, this will be the load.

220gr Sierra Pro-Hunter @ ~2300fps. I have carried this load for hunting black bears.

The real beauty of the 30-06 is it's versatility. Nothing wrong with a 308 or 300WM though either.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #11 on:** October 19, 2008, 05:50:38 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard on October 18, 2008, 12:27:43 PM

Actually there is no difference in recoil. The rifles for .308 are usually enough ligher than an '06 so that they recoil as much or more so than the average '06.

Pure poppycock.

The difference in rifle weight is generally minimal - 1/8 pound in the Remington M700 SPS, ¼ pound in the Savage 11/111. Let’s take the max .308 168g load from Nosler 6, a 2910fps with 52.5g powder, and falsely assume for a moment we can use the same load data to achieve the same velocity in a .30-06, using a .8 pound scope on both cases. Apples to apples. The recoil in the Savage rifle/scope combos (7.55lb/7.8lb) is 22.71lb vs 21.99lb. In the Remington rifle/scope combos (8.05lb/8.175lb) the recoil is 21.30lb vs. 20.98lb. In both cases the .308 Win has slightly more recoil.

In the real world, however, the .30-06 case has about 23% more capacity and more powder is needed to achieve similar velocities. In Nosler 6 the .308 Win max loads use from 43.0-52.2g powder while the .30-06 loads use from 48.0-63.0g powder. A mere 1.5g of powder is all that is required to overcome the weight difference in the Remington’s and 3.0g will overcome the difference in the Savage rifles. If attempting to match velocities the recoil can sometimes be indistinguishable but if trying to maximize velocities in both cartridges the .30-06 recoil is often several pounds heavier.

Quote

Is the 100-150 fps you might gain in the '06 really of any real world value? Nope not really. What one will do so will the other. That's really why tho I've long wanted a .280 Remington I have instead always bought 7-08s. I like the rifles the shorter round comes in better so seem to always choose it as the small difference just isn't significant.

With Nosler 6 data, which pushes a 168g AccuBond to 2910fps in a .308 and 3002fps in a .30-06, the .30-06 will deliver the same energy at 345 yards(2095fpe) that the .308 delivers at 300 yards (2088fpe). While that is not important every time, and perhaps only very rarely, only a fool would claim that it is never important.

With some rifles, such as the Remington SPS, both the .308 and .30-06 carry 24” barrels. In other rifles both come with 22” barrels. The difference is often only the length of the action, perhaps ¾”.

One thing I have to say is that I can easily make my .30-06’s shoot like a .308 but I can’t get my .308 to shoot like a .30-06...

Brithunter · « **Reply #12 on:** October 20, 2008, 12:00:06 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on October 18, 2008, 07:36:44 AM

The recoil is the same. Why give up the 100-150 fps? Using modern ammo, the .30-06 equals the .300H&H but it's much easier to find ammo for.

The .30-06 is just as accurate as the .308.

It will retain down range velocity longer.

The .308 makes sense in a semi-automatic for which it was designed. The cartridges are just a tad lighter & shorter as are the rifles.

I see no logical reason to choose the .308 over the .30-06 in a bolt action or a single shot.

The .30-06 is the finest cartridge in the world.

Hmmm funny that I wonder why the serious Palma type target shooters all switched to 308 or 7.62x51 rather than sticking with the 06 Springfield cartridge? perhaps it's beacuse the 308 is actually more accurate? no I don't why it should be but it certainly does seem to be the case.

I happen to have both and happen to like both but have always gotten better accuracy from the 308 than the 30-06 even using the same bullets. Another funny thing is that the short action rifle, a Brno ZKK 601, actually weighs more than a Mauser 98 actioned .308 rifle I just acquired and the 30-06 is also Mauser action as they are both Parker-Hale model 1100's. I will break out the 06 and work with it some more soon and see if I cannot find a better load for it however I very much doubt it will beat the .308 as to do that it will need to put three shots in almost one hole as that's what the newly acquired .308 1100 did yesterday.

As for felt recoil difference stock design will make more difference I feel and the reason I got the 06 was just in case I need the extra ooomph for something like Elk should I ever manage to make the trip

although I rather think it would be an 8x57 that would get the nod as I do think it's a more effecient cartridge than the 06 and funny enough that rifle is also a P-H but a 1200 super this time still a 98 Mauser though..

teddy12b · « **Reply #13 on:** October 20, 2008, 01:52:19 AM »

It's pretty hard to talk about apples to apples when you talk about palma rifles. Palma rifles are built for the range and they have around a 30" barrel don't they? You'd gain a lot of velocity with the longer barrels of the palma rifles.

It comes down to a 30-06 can do everything a 308 can do, but a 308 can't do everything a 30-06 can. Neither one is a bad choice because they both have a lot going for them.

Tallwalker · « **Reply #14 on:** October 20, 2008, 02:03:04 AM »

Though I like the .308 for eastern hunting, I'll have to admit that most 30-06 rifles that I have owned have been a bit more accurate than most .308's. The reason is that most manufacturers use the 7.62 Nato chamber, and that gives the standard .308 rounds more room to roam around in the chamber. Though I like the lower powder charges required for the .308, I think the 30-06 is a somewhat better cast bullet round in standard chambers. I've had better accuracy, and better luck "sealing" the '06 case with low pressures. Since SAMMI reduced the operating pressures of the '06 some .308 loads with bullets up to 165 grains actually run faster than the equivalant '06 loads. For hunting, I really doubt that many folks use the heavier bullets at long range so I doubt that there is any real performance difference in the field. I'll get flamed for this, but the bigger case is pretty convincing, as is popularity. I know NH hunters who wouldn't consider using a weak .308 unless they had to. The '06, and .270 are just right for them, and that's what keeps this all fun.

no guns here · « **Reply #15 on:** October 20, 2008, 02:52:49 AM »

I have never been a big .308 fan. I always looked at it as a "little .30-'06". My grandpa shot an '06. My dad shot an '06. It was the first rifle I bought for myself too. I bought it because I can hunt pretty much anything, anywhere with it. If my wife ever finds that out I am in such deep trouble... I'm still buying stuff I "need". Anyway this last time when I PCS'd to Germany I determined to get my hunting license here. Once I did, I needed a rifle. So I journeyed down to my local Rod and Gun club. I made a killer deal on two rifle and a shotgun. One rifle, a Steyr Pro Hunter .376 was bought because I thought I could make some $$$ off of it later. The shotgun, a Beretta 686 Onyx was bought for my daughter who fell in love with it and who gave me the money to pay for it. The second rifle was bought for me. It's the Tikka T3 Stainless Lite in .308. It's pretty much as light and as accurate a rifle as you can buy for $396. I figured that heck, it's only 150 fps slower than an '06 so it should kill 'em just as dead. If that 150 fps make a difference then I'd better buy a .300 win mag since it's a couple hundred fps faster than an '06. Then I thought... hmm, Mike, people have been killing deer and pigs with a .30-30 for a while now at 2100 fps, I guess a .308 would probably do the job. So I bought the .308 and haven't looked back. I will used it with complete confidence on everything here in Europe and pretty much in the US. Although, realistically, I probably won't hunt with it much in the US. I got a safe full of other stuff to shoot. I'll most likely keep it for my kids and as a loaner gun. So far I have a grand total of about $540 in it and it'll shoot a little under an inch with federal 150 gr power points. Can't argue with that at all. Right now the Steyr would be my elk or brown bear rifle but once I sell that I'll probably revert to my '06 for elk and one of my .45-70's for bear. I really could sell off the other 20 or so rifles and just keep my old 700 SS in .30-'06. There isn't a one of them that it couldn't adequately replace except for the Steyr which meets DG requirements in Africa that the '06 doesn't.

ngh

Bart Solo · « **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2008, 08:02:40 AM »

Family budgets being what they are most hunters only have one hunting rifle. The 30-06 has been that rifle for over a century. There is a reason. From 125 to over 200 grains, the 30-06 can handle an enormous range of bullets with accuracy and grace. The 308 is great for most common applications, and I think it might be slightly more accurate long range, but if you can only have one hunting rifle a 30-06 is the only way to go. On the other hand the 308 is still a fine, fine cartridge.

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2008, 08:09:54 AM »

What else will drop anything that walks in the US--is available in in every backwoods mom and pop store---and is cheap to shoot?

?

Tom W. · « **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2008, 09:17:45 AM »

A 12 ga. shootgun maybe?

I've had several 30-06's , even an Encore pistol (which I thought was a bit too much!) and they all dropped whatever was shot with them. My latest acquisition is a Ruger #1b, which I had re-chambered to 30-06 A.I., and really like it, as I can, and do, shoot standard '06 loads from it with great accuracy, and fire forms my cases.
Last March I traded for a single shot Savage Model 12 in .308 and I am really impressed with the accuracy that I get using 168 grain bullets. On the other hand, I loaded up some cast 160 grain bullets for the '06 with a light load of IMR 3031 to fire form some cases, and with a bit of holdover I was hitting broken limbs that had fallen on the berm @ the rifle range that were 200 yards away.. I don't see any practical difference in the two, except for the fact that most LR competition (at least around here) is fired using the .308 with specialized rifles, rather than "sporting " rifles.

Graybeard · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2008, 11:13:47 AM »

Quote

Family budgets being what they are most hunters only have one hunting rifle.

Now that's a statistic I'd like to know your source on. I don't know a single person who hunts and has only one hunting rifle. In fact I'm not sure I know anyone personally who has only two of them much less one.

Anyone at all here fit into that category of owning only a single hunting rifle?

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2008, 11:26:00 AM »

GB---you're dealing with gun nuts here.

I do know a couple guys with a bunch of kids and and not so good job that only own 1 rifle and 1 shotgun---mostly a .30-30 and a 870 Express.

Swampman · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2008, 11:36:04 AM »

Quote

Anyone at all here fit into that category of owning only a single hunting rifle?

That was my goal when I bought the 700CDL in .30-06. I still have 2 Handis left though. I wish I could get down to one deer rifle, one shotgun, one muzzleloader, and one .22.

I'm telling you it's tough.

Graybeard · « **Reply #22 on:** October 20, 2008, 11:51:27 AM »

I know a LOT of folks here and via the internet and so far as I know none have only one hunting rifle even just one deer hunting rifle. Not saying some don't but I suspect most hunters have closer to a half dozen than only one. In fact how in the world can a person get by with less than a half dozen of them? Why would anyone want to?

Swampman · « **Reply #23 on:** October 20, 2008, 11:52:45 AM »

I just got tired of having stuff I didn't use.

Graybeard · « **Reply #24 on:** October 20, 2008, 12:08:08 PM »

Oh my how much that makes me wanna make a crack but I'll play nice and not at this time.

Swampman · « **Reply #25 on:** October 20, 2008, 12:18:19 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard on October 20, 2008, 12:08:08 PM

Oh my how much that makes me wanna make a crack but I'll play nice and not at this time.

I'm not as old as most of the folks here.

When you have around 20 deer rifles, something's gotta give.

Graybeard · « **Reply #26 on:** October 20, 2008, 12:31:32 PM »

Believe me guns was NOT what I had in mind making a crack about.

rickt300 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 20, 2008, 12:39:44 PM »

My 30-06 is a custom Springfield scoped with a Leupold 4x and it has taken All american game animals except Bears from Grizzly up and Muskox. This went on for 19 years and I decided that i would make it a "backup" rifle and used this as an excuse to buy and keep more than 20 centerfire rifles adequate for deer and most other game in America. Loading for all these calibers is a logistical nightmare but it is all good. Oh yeah I'm 52 and figure I am way younger than the Universal Swampman.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #28 on:** October 20, 2008, 01:07:09 PM »

My father for many years had only two guns.
Sako deluxe in 308 Win for deer and black bear.
Browning Auto 5 with a cutts comp for everything else.
Non toxic shot made him get a second shot gun when his gun smith told him not to shoot steel through the old Cutts.
He still only has the one center fire rifle. And now that he has moved to NC he has taken one of my 22's as his and uses it to hunt bushey tails.

As to 308 Vs 30-06 I ave a few of each and like the 308 better. There are more loaded rounds for it than 30-06 but not by many. If you walk into any gunstore you will find both and usually have two or three options as to what your shooting. With reloading the 165 grain bullet can be pushed faster through the 308 than the 30-06 with slightly less powder. At least that is what my CCI reloading manual says. With the Premium designed projectiles anything the old 06 can do the 308 can do as well. The big diff comes when you go heavy for caliber bullets and above 180 grains the 30-06 pulls ahead. But they way I look at it. If you want to shoot a 200 grain or larger bullet for elk, moose or other large beast. Go bigger diameter. 338 Win Mag or 375 H&H depending on the critter, terrain, and the distance.
I really do not see that much of a differance between any of the calibers based on the 06 case and their counter part based on the 308 case especally of you hand load.

rickt300 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 20, 2008, 01:15:50 PM »

I have the same Speer manual. It also says that particular 308 had an especially fast barrel. Loaded to the same pressures the 30-06 will push a 165 grain bullet 100-150 feet per second faster than the 308. I own both a 308 and a 30-06 though the 308 is in retirement at the moment due to a 7x57 taking it's place it is possible the 308 is the perfect deer rifle. If it isn't it is a 7x57.