Author Topic: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.  (Read 3274 times)

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Offline Nasty Jack

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USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« on: October 19, 2008, 10:18:57 PM »
USS Constitution --

Here's the link. I posted this twice and lost it both times. I'm skipping the image links. Go look at the page!

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/consitutiongundeck.htm

DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY -- NAVAL HISTORICAL CENTER
805 KIDDER BREESE SE -- WASHINGTON NAVY YARD
WASHINGTON DC 20374-5060

------------------------------------

I was looking for a detailed sketch of how the guns are rigged on the deck, where all the ropes go, how the hardware on the cheeks function.

This seems to be an historically accurate description.

"FAIR USE" -- I edited/refomatted from the above site. Original jpg. --

http://www.history.navy.mil/pics/const-p4sm.jpg



Crappy image here! Go look at the detail on the site linked above!

There's a nice carriage drawing -- mechanical plan -- on the site.


Offline cannonmn

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Rigging, Carriages.
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2008, 01:06:54 AM »
Thanks for the link.  There are some errors in the article that you might want to bring to the attention of the site's maintainers.  I didn't go over it in detail but a quick read pointed up a couple of errors.  The first B&W photo of the restored ship's spar deck has the following errant caption:

Quote
Constitution's spar-deck battery included "chase guns" as well as these short-barreled 32-pounder carronades.


The replica pieces shown are not carronades but gunades, since they have trunnions.  They were apparently cast during the 1928 restoration and I think they have since been removed but not sure.  The gunades are not, as far as I know, historically accurate weapons for the ship. Gunades were indeed used in the USN particularly in smaller sizes such as 4 and 6 pounders, on small ships, but I don't think any gunades over about 6 or perhaps 9 pounder were ever in the Navy's inventory

I think arming the restored ship with incorrect gunades was an honest mistake, the level of knowledge of such things at the time of the restoration was not up to today's standard.

There is some other questionable information in the article, such as the discussion of ammunition where the author states that star shot was made up of chains.  A more modern definition comes from recovered star shot are made of iron rods connected and hinged at one end.  I saw an article on an excellent specimen that was recovered during the past few years in Florida, and that item consists of a collection of rods or bars hinged at one end so they can theoretically open up into an "astirisk" or star shape in flight.

Offline Double D

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Rigging, Carriages.
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2008, 03:52:27 AM »
Posted this up about a year ago. HMS Victory and recoil control

This is the set up for HMS Victory.

Offline Nasty Jack

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Rigging, Carriages.
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2008, 01:45:56 PM »
Thank you --

My experience so far with cannon has been directed toward Bp firing models which aren't "replicas" of anything specific. Any time I've seen a replica naval cannon fired, it' been entirely sans rigging.

You know . . . haul it out of the pickup, set it up on the patio, shoot it off sometime between the summer dinner and the fireworks.

Offline Terry C.

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Rigging, Carriages.
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 02:22:04 PM »
Judging from how my quarter-scale 12-pounder behaves on its field carriage, I fully intend to use a secure rigging when firing it from the new Marsilly carriage. It kicks, hard, with live rounds.

Offline Nasty Jack

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Rigging, Carriages.
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2008, 09:17:54 PM »
Rigging would bring up my next question --

Are the tackle blocks used in naval rigging actual pullies? Or are they just wooden blocks with holes/passages for the lines? Having not been aboard a square rigger, I'm wondering about the tackle blocks on any of these older ships.

-- Also, any suppliers of for these blocks in "scale model" size?

Offline dan610324

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Rigging, Carriages.
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2008, 01:32:43 PM »
scale model size ??  half scale is also an scalemodel  ;D

but ok I found one years ago , but this is for scale scale scale builders   ;D

maybe you can use the largest items .

thelionspaw  where are you , now its up to you go get me some percent of this large deal ,

yes its an polish company .

http://arch.navalis.pl

they have what you are looking for nasty jack
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Double D

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Rigging, Carriages.
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2008, 03:58:49 PM »
Deadeyes are the blocks with holes and serve as insulators in the guys on ships masts. You will also see these dead eyes on the guy wires on Radio towers.

The blocks used to train and recover guns as well as reduce recoil have sheaves and are classic pullies.

Offline Rickk

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Rigging, Carriages.
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2008, 01:52:40 PM »
I have quite a few pictures of the Constitution guns if anyone wants them. I was there last summer.
Rick

Offline Nasty Jack

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Rigging, Carriages.
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2008, 08:32:49 AM »
I have quite a few pictures of the Constitution guns if anyone wants them. I was there last summer.
Rick

WAIT A SECOND ! ! !

I want to see the photos, BUT . . . I'm on dialup and when someone posts a "photo-album" it effectively freezes up the thread for me. I can download a few photos.

BEFORE you post them -- get into Adobe PhotoShop or similar and make low resolution copies of the images. 640 X 480 pixel format is pretty standard. Lowest resolution in that size looks fine on a computer monitor. (Unless you're looking at a wide-screen, plasma TV.)

Low res. produces smaller files which load faster. I'm stuck in the boonies w/ a 28.8 dial-up connection on a GOOD day. (Ahhhhhhhhh, but I can fire a cannon in my front yard!)

I'd be interested in seeing cannon outfitting.


Offline Nasty Jack

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2008, 08:55:07 AM »
Nomenclature --

I changed the header title from "rigging" to "outfitting." Evidently "rigging" refers to sails and "outfitting" refers to the gear used to service cannon.

Just like they're called "lines" not "ropes." (And it's a "fly-rod," not a "pole.")

Anyways -- outfitting the "recoil lines" on the carriage/truck.

Someone noted that it must get interesting to be jumping over the lines to load the cannon. The other feature with the "recoil lines" as they're depicted herein is that they allow the cannon to move back about the length of a ramrod or a barrel length when fired. That's a significant distance to have a ton or more of cannon rolling fast on a ship! There's a meaning to the term "loose cannon."

I'm expecting, seamen being seamen, and the whole operation of a ship being about rigging, lines, hauser, and knots . . .

I'm guessing (with no basis in fact or research, just conjecture) that the "recoil lines" may have been attached to the bulkheads by some sort of pin or hook, and that this would allow the line to be detached for loading/swabbing, and then attached -- short and tight -- to the bulkhead in order to control recoil and rolling of the carriage.

The illustrations I see depict these details variously, and I'm reminded that "illustrators" often interpret scenes and leave out essential details.

A short line, secured to the bulkhead with a pin or hook, would allow access to the cannon -- tethered with side and train tackle. The ring feature on the cascabel, through which the recoil line is passed, would aid in keeping untensioned lines in place.

Running though large cheek rings, and over the cascabel, a recoil line would need be only detached from one side to allow the carriage to be "run in" for loading. Then once loaded, the carriage would be run out for firing with side tackle, and the recoil line brought taut and secured to the bulkhead.

Seems intuitive. Any historical basis to support or refute?


 

Offline Double D

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2008, 10:32:48 AM »
The GBO software automatically reformats posted pictures to maximum 500 pixels wide by proportional height.

I feel your pain about dial up.  I use to live 25 miles out of town north of Cut Bank Montana, population 3000,  with the nearest neighbor a mile and a half away and I could get DSL via the phone company.  I moved from there to Northern Virginia 25 miles from the nations capital and a couple hundred thousand people with in a mile and a half and I only could get dial up.  Go figure.  When we moved back to Cut Bank, we bought a house in town and the phone company provided us DSL. 
 

There are two riggings, one a noun and the other a verb.  You outfit a ship with a suite of sails and a battery of guns.  Once you have the sails and guns you have to install  them and this rigging. 

When you attach the sails to the mast, the act of attaching the sails is rigging the sails to the mast.  When you are attach the guns to the bulkhead  the act of  attaching the guns is rigging the guns.  Verbs

The combined standing lines sails, masts and spars is called  the rigging.  The gear attaching the cannon to the bulkhead is also the rigging but more commonly the tackle.   Nouns

I don't believe the blocks were disconnected from the gun for loading.  This would work against you on a rolling ship. It would require extra steps to unhook, load,  recover tackle  and rehook, The tackle could get tangled with other gear or just moved out of position  if it were free. It also might have to be pulled to be reattached.  Further with the positioning of the hooks for the tackle the lines are going to be very close in to the line of the gun barrel and mostly laying on the deck and probably not that much in the way. When the gun recoils and hits the end of the rope and the rope goes taught the gun will bounce back a bit and the tackle will lay flat on the deck.  At least on my gun it does.  The illustrations below seem to support the theory that the tackle was not detached for reloading. You definitely would not want that gun detached from the bulkhead in rolling seas...loose cannon? That gear is there to hold the cannon from careening down the deck in recoil or in rough seas.



I think you are dead on about most illustrations lack of detail.  That is unless you are so lucky as to find a book like the HMS Victory, Her Construction, career and restoration By Alan McGown.  The detail in the illustrations in that book is meticulous.  But then that is what the book is realy about, the details. But most other illustration are not all that useful.




Offline Nasty Jack

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2008, 01:57:52 PM »
Terminology -- great stuff.

"You 'spose they tie a rope to the gun, hook the other end to the wall, and then stick the nose of the gun out the window?"  ;D ;D ;D

I was in the Army. I know a TL29, a P38, and a shelter half.

Rigging, outfitting, charging . . . lines, bulkheads, linstocks . . . The closest I've been to a ship at sea is the municipal ferries on Puget Sound. They "roll" in heavy seas, but it's not like a square rigger on the ocean. -- And I keep forgetting that all this loading and firing goes on while the ship is rolling.

"Loose cannon" is one of my favorite nautical terms, along with "underway" -- which is not the lower deck on a bridge. 


Offline dan610324

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2008, 03:57:20 PM »
could anyone explain for me the reason why they have the two eyebolts in the back of the carriage ??
Ive seen them on almost all naval carriages , but never seen anything attached to them .
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Double D

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2008, 04:46:02 PM »
Dan if you look at the drawings above you will they are used to hook the tackle.  Now theremay be two other fixtures for handspikes for adjusting the guns position

Offline dan610324

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2008, 05:10:57 PM »
in the pictures above they are not in use , so I asume they will be used for side adjustement
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline GGaskill

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2008, 05:16:59 PM »
He is talking about the ones on the rearmost step of each cheek set at 45° angles.  The 24 pounders on the CD-ROM do not have those eyes.
GG
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Offline Double D

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2008, 07:59:52 PM »
On the Victory 32 pounders one is an eye and the other is post in the drawings.  But in the photo of the gun deck the guns all have eyebolts and none are being used.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2008, 01:48:18 PM »
could anyone explain for me the reason why they have the two eyebolts in the back of the carriage ??
Ive seen them on almost all naval carriages , but never seen anything attached to them .

Dan,

  I think the statement that there are eyebolts on the last step of almost all wooden naval truck carriages might be just a little bit of an exaggeration, but I agree with you that they are on many. They are there for the side tackle to be attached to; some carriages just have those eyebolts for side tackle, some only have eyebolts on the cheeks/brackets for the side tackle hooks to be attached to (these would be located somewhere on the lower cheek area usually in front of the rear truck), and some have both, giving the gun captain a choice for attaching the tackle. The tackle hook attached to the eyebolt on the last step would make it easier for the gun crew to traverse the gun, men utilizing the tackle on one side while another used a handspike to lever the other side. In the picture below the carriage in the foreground has the tackle attached to the eye on the step and the second carriage has the side tackle attached to the cheek eye.



Two pics added the 29th


Firing an 18 pounder, painted by Louis-Phillipe Crepin, 1772-1851


Russian naval gun, 1833
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Terry C.

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2008, 02:15:44 PM »
My guess is that the eyebolts on the top are lifting points, for loading the carriage onto a ship. They weren't lifted with tubes in place, they were loaded separately. A large eye would not be necessary, but some sort of attachment would be desirable.

Offline Double D

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2008, 02:41:31 PM »
While we are on the subject does anyone know what the rope was made of?

Offline dan610324

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2008, 02:50:22 PM »
SORRY DONT KNOW THE ENGLISH NAME , BUT IN SWEDISH ITS CALLED HAMPA
ITS AN CLOSE RELATIVE PLANT TO THE MARIJUANA PLANT
sorry forgot the capslock
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Terry C.

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2008, 02:54:08 PM »
IN SWEDISH ITS CALLED HAMPA
ITS AN CLOSE RELATIVE PLANT TO THE MARIJUANA PLANT

Hemp.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2008, 04:02:26 PM »
While we are on the subject does anyone know what the rope was made of?

"As most devotees of Jack Herer's landmark book, The Emperor Wears No Clothes, know, thousands of pounds of hemp line was used as rigging on the U.S.S. Constitution. Visitors to Boston can still clamber aboard the world's oldest commissioned warship to get an idea of what sea going life was like in the 1800's. A nearby museum contains some of "Old Ironsides'" original hempen artifacts. While there, be sure to ask why hemp is not being used during the restoration of this historic ship in preparation for the celebration of her 200th birthday. Where's the hemp!?!"

http://www.hempology.org/JD'S%20ARTICLES/NEWENG.html

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2008, 04:39:04 PM »
I wonder how hemp would work for slow match, probably stink like burning rubber bands

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2008, 04:54:58 PM »
I wonder how hemp would work for slow match, probably stink like burning rubber bands

Are you sure you've never smelt hemp burn before?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2008, 08:40:44 PM »
ITS A CLOSE RELATIVE PLANT TO THE MARIJUANA PLANT

That's why it is not sold in the US.  Probably smells similar when burning, too.
GG
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Offline Ex 49'er

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2008, 05:14:38 AM »
You could take a trip whilst lightning your cannon and never leave the farm.   ;D ;D
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2008, 10:05:46 PM »
I have quite a few pictures of the Constitution guns if anyone wants them. I was there last summer.
Rick

Rick,

I'd appreciate seeing the photos, especially any you might have of the 24 pounder's vent area and any that show details of their carriages.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2008, 10:15:37 PM »
You could take a trip whilst lightning your cannon and never leave the farm.   ;D ;D

 I wonder if any cannoneer that also happened to be an aficionado of the weed has ever designed a combination linstock/hookah pipe?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.