USS Constitution -- Gun Outfitting, Carriages.

[cannonmn]

Could I ask for some more info on what is captioned "Russian Naval Gun 1833" in a photo above?  Rsn I ask is that the tube looks more like a bronze light field gun than anything else.  The carriage looks like an old repro since the capsquares are too thin, like sheet metal almost.  The tube origin may indeed be Russian, but it kind of reminds me of British light 3-pounder gun ca. 1800.  There's no raised vent field or vent mass as I'd expect to see on a true naval gun of that era.  Approximately how big is the piece in that photo, and where is it, geographically.  If I had to guess, I'd guess it is in the UK since the inventory numbers painted on it kind of look like the ones formerly used by the Tower of London.  Thanks!

[Cannoneer]

Could I ask for some more info on what is captioned "Russian Naval Gun 1833" in a photo above?  Rsn I ask is that the tube looks more like a bronze light field gun than anything else.  The carriage looks like an old repro since the capsquares are too thin, like sheet metal almost.  The tube origin may indeed be Russian, but it kind of reminds me of British light 3-pounder gun ca. 1800.  There's no raised vent field or vent mass as I'd expect to see on a true naval gun of that era.  Approximately how big is the piece in that photo, and where is it, geographically.  If I had to guess, I'd guess it is in the UK since the inventory numbers painted on it kind of look like the ones formerly used by the Tower of London.  Thanks!

 I saved this pic from a photo sharing site, I think it was Webshots. The captions under this and another photo were printed using the Cyrillic alphabet, which I hate to admit I'm not that familiar with. I think there were three sets of numbers, at least that's the only three I made note of: 1833, 77mm and 150cm. I made a leap of the imagination with these figures and assumed the first might be the date the gun was founded, the second could be the bore size, which would make it around a three pounder, (common British and American bore names and sizes were: 2.91-inches/3-pdr. and 3.20-inches/4-pdr.) and the third probably denoted the length of the barrel. Other than the numbers I assumed to be a date and the two measurements, I couldn't make heads or tails out of the language, not even to suggest a location for a museum. This may be tenuous reasoning, but because of the language and the color of the cracked concrete floor I made the guess that these guns were in the Museum of Artillery, Engineers and Signal Corps in St. Petersburg. I don't know what method the curator of the Tower of London uses to record and identify their artifacts, but I've seen photos of pieces in the St. Petersburg museum that show the same white painted number over a number, some even preceded by the letter K just like this pic of a naval gun. Maybe this archival notation is an international European system that museums use to keep a record of their collections (Bob Smith could probably answer this question)?
As for the raised vent field, well yeah, in the early 1800's many naval guns did have raised vent fields, and some did not, British light three and six pounder field guns also had raised vent fields as did some continental field guns. I know (or at least I'm guessing that you aren't) you're not actually saying you think this is a British light infantry 3-pdr, because it doesn't have any of the necessary markings on it (it would also be too long, if the 150cm is it's correct length).
I'm not sure that I understand what you're trying to say about the pattern of the barrel; if you're saying it resembles the Verbruggen, Pattison and Townsend type cannon profile, or has similarities with the iron Armstrong naval pattern and later Blomefield pattern, then yes I would certainly agree with you.
My own opinion about this gun (if that 1833 date is correct) is that it would have basically been used as a  signal gun for a war ship, a three or four pounder would have been considered useless as a battle gun: by this date iron would have been the metal of choice for naval guns and the bore sizes were increasing, making the 32 pounder the most prevalent navy-battle gun.
As for the carriage and/or it's parts being reproductions, you may well be right, a reasonable thing to do here would be to quote Matt Switlik: "I have long wished that equal attention could have been given to historic gun carriages. Unfortunately any such effort with regard to carriages will be much more difficult since they have survived in much smaller numbers. Alterations, reproductions and restorations often make it difficult for most field reporters to identify what is or may be original."


St. Petersburg Museum, white identification numbers.

[cannonmn]

Thanks Boom, so it is probably in St. Petersburg, makes sense.  As for the small bronze barrel, if a naval gun, it could actually be a large swivel gun, if not a small field piece. 

I haven't seen any muzzle-loading salute guns that I could verify were on a major power's naval vessel, nor have I ever seen any records of specialized salute guns being assigned to naval vessels say pre-1890's.  The original reason for firing a salute when coming into a foreign port was to show the fort at the harbor entrance that your guns were now unloaded, and firing a single little blank-firing cannon would not work for that.  When the custom went out of style or was unnecessary later, naval vessels began carrying a few small-caliber breechloading salute guns for the then-ceremonial salute.

Non-naval vessels, particularly yachts, did often carry salute guns, some with quite large bronze tubes.  I've seen these with barrels up to four feet or perhaps a bit more in length, weighing many hundreds of pounds, with bores up to about 6-pounder size.

[Bob Smith]

I am not sure what it is exactly you want to know? First, yes, many artillery collections in Europe use painted numbers on their cannons from Turkey and Russia in the East to Spain in the West, easiest way to identify an object permanently.
But no, there is no Internationally recognized system of museum numbering and cataloguing. It depends on the age and nature of the collections. For example in Britain in the Royal Armouries all the artillery is in the Class 19 (or XIX). However in the Museum of Artillery in Woolwich, the collection of the Royal Regiment of Artillery, they are split between classes based on material - 1- wrought-iron; 2- bronze; 3- cast-iron; 28- steel. Some collection- I think Paris? - has the letter N before the artillery. Lisbon is divided by age and origins. Spain has a straight-through numbering system, regardless of object. I have never been to St petersburg, although I hope to get there next year, if everything pans out right, but you never take anything for granted where Russia is concerned.

You are right that often you can recognize a collection from the numbering system, so the diversity does have advantages

Bob Smith

[Cannoneer]

I am not sure what it is exactly you want to know? First, yes, many artillery collections in Europe use painted numbers on their cannons from Turkey and Russia in the East to Spain in the West, easiest way to identify an object permanently.

Thanks Bob,

 I wasn't sure either, but everything you had to say helped, because my knowledge of how some museums marked their collections was nil. I had just noted that a gun in one unidentified photo was marked in a similar manner as some photos I had of guns located at the St. Petersburg museum.