cast lead 30/30 for deer?

[Sharps-Nut]

    I am sorta new to lever guns but have been playing with a marlin 336 30/30 and a 311291 lyman 180 grain cast lead gas checked bullet.  Was thinking of hunting deer this year with the combo.  Any thoughts?  Shots would be under 100 yards and likely 50 yards or less.  Any insight appreciated.

[BBF]

Is this a hard cast( no expansion) bullet?
If so I would have felt better with a # 311041

[Dee]

I have been molding a 170 grain gas check bullet for about 30 years now, and still hunt with them occasionally. I use wheel weights and the bullets kill just fine. They are a penetrator and a bone breaker, but don't expand. On deer just break the shoulders and they go down.
I prefer however, the 150 grain jacketed round nose and shoot them the most out of my 3030 which I have had for over 50 years.

[p15camborne]

Try this site:   http://www.castbullet.com/index.htm

[Sharps-Nut]

I could cast them from whell weight or nearly pure lead.  I would think for a rifle bullet wheel weight would be about right.

[Dee]

I hope so Sharps-Nut. I have been usin em since about 1971. I'd hate to find out at this late date, that I'd been messin up.

[BillDan]

Pure lead bullet would probably strip in the bore leaving some pretty ugly leading in those microgrooves. 311291 is a good target bullet in my 03A3, but that round nose won't cut diddly for a wound channel. You want something with a large meplat. 311041 from WW has also been good for me for a long time. Last couple years I've mixed pure lead to the WW to get a BHN of a little over 11. That seems to get some expansion, but can't be sure - they still shoot clean thru, but a great blood trail.

[Sharps-Nut]

Dee care to share your formula for success.   I only have the one mold so if the 311291 is no good I may have to call off the hunt?  I might place the question over on cast bullet section and see what the lead pursists say but your round nose not being a good game getter seems right.

[pastorp]

Sharps-nut, Maybe its time for a second mold.  Regards, Byron

Or you could do what I do with a large hoard of 32 S&W longs that I have. I just flatten the nose on my belt sander.

[bilmac]

I posed the same question a few months ago. Some guys are making a two part bullet with soft lead in the front and wheel weights in the driving bands. They make a little dipper sized to hold just enough soft lead to fill the nose.

[Dead doc]

MY formula  is   wheel weights  with just enough 50-50 Bar solder to bring the tin mix up to ABOUT  2 %  this also adds a small amount of lead .  I use the #RCBS  180 FP bullet which comes out , from my mould at 195 grains  WITH gas check and lube . It WILL expand  a little and is not quite as brittle as SOME  wheel weights can be, due to the antimony. It shoots through both of my Winchester 94s VERY WELL    I use   WW cases Fed 210M primers , and 30 Grains Varget     ABOUT 1900 Fps     Excellent deer load .
 

[Dee]

Dee care to share your formula for success.   I only have the one mold so if the 311291 is no good I may have to call off the hunt?  I might place the question over on cast bullet section and see what the lead pursists say but your round nose not being a good game getter seems right.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. My 158 grain jacketed round nose, is a soft point factory bullet. Flat pointed molded bullets are in my opinin the way to go for hunting.
I load a 158 grain jacketed round nose soft point to 2400fps. Here is were it gets good though. You can load a gas-checked, flat nosed,170 grain molded lead bullet, to the SAME VELOCITY with no leading using wheel weights. The bullet configuration (flat point) bites into bone very well, and with the weight, hardness, and added velocity over a factory 170  grain bullet, the molded 170 with break bone very reliablely. If you break down the foundation that holds him up, he "will" go down.

[Longfin]

Allow me to ask a question related to this topic. In one of the replies to this post, it was stated, "aim for the shoulder." Is a shoulder shot always advised when using a hard cast bullet. I have a 38-55 that accurately shoots the Beartooth 265 grain FP, but I have been hesitant to use it on whitetails.  I prefer to shoot lungs/heart with jacketed bullets to save meat, but was not sure if a hard lead bullet would just pencil through resulting in a long job of tracking.
Zack

[Dee]

Longfin, this is just my opinion, but hard cast bullets don't tear up much meat, and as for shoulder shots, broke bones don't work so good, speaking from breakin em, and havin em broke.
Cast and jacketed bullets kill differently in many ways. A heart lung shot with a jacketed soft point on a whitetail sometimes means an instant down, and sometimes not. Same with a hard cast heart lung shot. Dead deer yes, but they may cover a little ground before the head runs out of oxygen filled blood.
Jacketed soft point, I use a heart lung most of the time. Hard cast, I try to break both shoulders. There will be a dozen different answers from a dozen different hunters.
Also that 265 grain cast flat point in a 38-55 at reasonable ranges should flatten a deer OR black bear with a shoulder shot. That would be an excellent load. JMO

[Sharps-Nut]

Thanks for all of the replies.  I been testing and away from the computer.  I lucked out and found some 180 grain lead, flat points that dad had bought years ago.  I loaded up most of them in the name of load development.  At 2000 fps even with a gas check leading was a problem.  Accuracy at 60 yards was best with imr 3031  and accurate 2520, with accurate edging out 3031.  I am confident either load would and might chance to kill a deer.  I shot a doe last year with a 44 mag loaded with speer half jacket no hollow point.  Like Dee said a lead load kills a little different than a jacketed organ scrambler.  My doe last year walked a ways as if unhit  buckled up fell and kicked it out.  My priority has shifted for the moment as I have been developing a low recoil deer killer for the 30/30 for my 8 year old 60lbs son.  He bagged a nice doe last year with a 223.  This year I moved him to a 30/30.  My luck, seirra makes a 125 grain 30/30 pro hunter class bullet which really brought the  recoil down.  I have it loaded at 2200 fps, its accurate, shot thru 2 gallon paint buckets filled with water and broke a hole in the third.  I feel that should be very good for a heart lung shot for the little guy on a 60-100 yard deer shot.  This weekend is youth only season and I hope we find what he's looking for.  Thanks again for all of the replies, and I hope to bag one with the mighty 30-30 myself with the lead flat nose bullet.  SN

[Lloyd Smale]

as most here know im a big advocate of cast bullets. ive used .30s on deer but personaly i think good cast bullet guns start at the .35  with a good flat nosed bullet. 30s are on the small size and need some expansion. that can be accoplished with proper casting but anymore i just dont fool with them using cast.

[Sweetwater]

A few years ago, I shot a mule deer, 2 antelope and a small cow elk with a 182gr FPGC (wheelweights) out of a 32WSPCL, basically a ballistic twin to your 30-30. All were over 100 yards and all were pass throughs and bone breakers.  From that, I deduced the performance was there, as long as the bullet gets placed where it needs to go. Leading was not a concern and the Chrony claimed 2230fps avg.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Sweetwater]

Re: light bullets

A bunch of years ago I helped my sister get over her flinches by using 125gr and 130gr bullets in her 30-06. She shot several antelope and deer with those light weights at distances closing in on 250yards. Your 30-30 may not have the reach with the light weights as we were crowding 2700fps, but they should be just dandy for your son to grow with. Let us know how it goes. We may all learn something from it.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Lloyd Smale]

a couple years ago i did some playing with 120 grain 32 lfn bullets sized down for the 3030 and got them up to 2500 fps with excellent accuracy and no leading with some alloy experimenting and lube experimenting, still havent killed anything with them but they sure slap rocks at 150 yards. I talked to veral about this back then and he said he had done the same and they killed very well

[Sharps-Nut]

   Thanks for the encouragment.  My neighbor like to had a fit when I mentioned loading the 30/30 with a lighter weight bullet.  He is a facotry load shooter and was sure my home brew loads were not going to perform well.  My son got his first deer with a 223 loaded with 60 grain soft points.  It was not my first choice but he shoot silouette is very wlling to wait for the perfect sight picture, and does great with his trigger pull and follow thru.  That was the only reason I went that route and neither he nor the round let me down.  My feeling this year was he is a little bigger so maybe I could move him up to a more deer appropriate round but would rather not turn him off of shooting or give him a flench.  This weekend may prove my load or give a big slice of crow pie.  I am sure hope its the first, as last year we will pass on everything but close broadside shots.   Thanks again for all of the help and input.  I will post on monday if we score during the weekend youth hunt.    Respectfully SN

[Mule]

Sharps-Nut,
You need not be concerned about the terminal ballistics of the Sierra .308, 125gr HPFP.

Carry with confidence, I do.

[targshooter]

Some great reference reads regarding the use of cast lead bullets are:
Mr. Rifleman by Townesend Whelen.
Lyman reloading manuals for the late 50s and early 1960s.
Elmer Keith's notes.
I have killed many deer with a .45-70 using a hard lead bullet from a company called Bull-X. I lost the fact sheet they sent me (it actually called out the mold); it is a 405 grain bullet with a .32 inch diameter meplat. The deer go nowhere upon being hit. All shot have been closer than 100 yards. All have been 1 shot kills. I use 42 grains of IMR 3031 under this bullet. This did not cause lead stripping with this gas checkless, lubricated bullet in my Marlin Model 1895 rifle (it has the ballard type rifling). 
As for the .30-30, it was designed as a smokeless powder load and the original load was a jacketed bullet with exposed lead tip, weighing around 165 grains if my memory of Townsend's account is holding (too lazy to dig the book up).
I do have a friend who uses a lead bullet in his Marlin Model 336 .30-30 for target shooting. It is a 176 grain bullet with a gas check, mold #31141 with Lyman alloy #2; as is marked in my old reloading manual (Lyman 44th Edn). The accuracy load is 22.7 of IMR 4227 according to the margin notes. His son used it on deer when younger, and it worked at the close NE ranges they used it in from the treestand with cleared firing lanes. I do remember he stated it would not have been his first choice; but the rifle was sighted in with the load and he did not want to scrub the barrel and change its target POI. The reloading manual has no picture, so I cannot remark on the bullet style.
If you reload, I believe a 170 grain jacketed bullet loaded to about 1900 fps (close to original load) would be better and provide the low recoil you seek. My wife carried a .30-30 Marlin Model 340 with just such a low recoiling load for several years in the Adirondacks. Alas, she got no deer, but the rifle recoil did not disturb her shooting.

[Mule]

I heard rifle shots this morning and thought about you.
It is youth weekend here in Missouri.
Tell us about your hunt.

[Sharps-Nut]

Well here is the unvarnished truth of the hunt.  We were not able to make the saturday morning hunt due to cub scout training for me, tough call but I did what I thought was right.  Saturday evening we went out for the last two hours and sat in a treestand in a location on a food plot I felt would deliver, no deer showed.  My son was loosing his enthusiasm due to my poor choice to make him endure two hours in a stand.  Sunday morning we were in the woods early right at light back on the food plot, by shortly after eight he was loosing enthusiasm once again so decided to get down and look for deer sign.  We did not move around very much and set up on a path I have thru the woods.  Figured we would set another 1/2 hour and go home with no deer.  Ten miniutes in I see movement coming around the corner of our trail, we are ground hunting right on the edge of the trail.  The deer is closing in fast 50 yards max at sighting and closing at 30 yards he see's us the boy is on him like stink on a turd.  I am thinking this is going to be one sticky clean up from the dead on front shot.  He squeezes the trigger snap.  The darned crossbolt bolt saftey was on the deer is really giving us the eveil eye now, I recock and take off saftey he gave the boy a bout 10 second window to aim and fire.  The boys real picky with his sight picture and can't pull it off, the deer bolts.  By far one of the most fun yet sad hunts I have been on in a while.  The boy took it in stride but dad felt horrible for not being more on the ball and letting the boys first buck, eight pointer, huge for a boy, fun for anyone, get away.  I guess a valuable lesson was learned.  Too much load developement time not eneogh time on my part working with him practicing the basics.  I feel like like a real dork.   In two weeks regular rifle season will open and I will go and see of we can make this buck thing happen for the boy.  I won't lie I been cussing the lawyers and their use of crossbolt safties since 8:30 sunday morning.  I will not lie it is also one of the things that I liked about the gun, thinking it would improve the saftey in a youth letting the hammer down on a loaded chamber.   So thats it the un varnished truth of the hunt.  Thanks for following along with the story.   SN

[Sweetwater]

Great Experience!!! I expect most of us have pulled the trigger without letting off the safety, or pulling the hammer back or some such malady resulting in no shot. Not sure I did it more than once or not. Mostly I've been awestruck at their majesty and being that close to them that they react before I do. Lots of deer have gotten away from me that way. Still a memorable hunt for both you and your son.

The icing on the cake? You guys were there together!! Don't get no better than that!!!

Regards,
Sweetwater

[bilmac]

Bad part about forgetting the safety on a Marlin is that the hammer falls. I'll bet that sounded like Big Ben that day.

[Sharps-Nut]

I thought it sounded like a 32 oz forge hammer on steel.  But I do awake to a 1921 series 1 big ben for the important things in life like hunts and stuff. The wife does not like me changing her clock radio, you know she don't like my ben either, to loud on the tick.  Love the tick of a ben, takes me back home, its all dad has ever used.   SN

[Dee]

Ya know SharpsNut. My dad gave me his retirement watch about 18 years ago. He never wore it even though it was a brand new Rolex. I wore it for almost 20 years, then had it rebuilt, and put it in my safe. I carry an Elgin pocket watch. I don't look at a watch as much as I did when I was young. We're old fashioned you and I.

[Sharps-Nut]

I have been looking for a hamilton 992 pocket watch in stainless steel case.  Been wearing the same wrist watch for nearly 20 years but looking to go old school.  Guess its back to the it was good eneogh then why not now.  Had citizen "church watch" croaked after six months.  I see lots of old pockets going that were made 100 years ago.  Land fills are full of this junk were importing now, when stuff used to be made to be rapaired and used some more... wait I feel a rant coming so I will stop now.  SN

[coyotejoe]

I watched Ted Nugent's brother do the click on safety thing with a Marlin 45/70 on an Alaskan bear hunt. 
If I had one I would locktite the safety in the "off" position.