Author Topic: cap problems  (Read 1220 times)

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Offline grr121

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cap problems
« on: October 22, 2008, 11:17:18 AM »
I took my cva out this weekend and found I had a problem I have to pull the trigger twice on the  cap before it will fire I tried a new nipple witch was worse I also tryed new #11magnum cap as well with no luck

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: cap problems
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2008, 11:51:20 AM »
weak main spring.  easy cheap fix.


Offline Semisane

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Re: cap problems
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2008, 11:59:34 AM »
There are a couple of routine things to check when that happens, one of which you already tried (new nipple).

I assume this is a gun you've shot before, and didn't have that problem?


1.  Is the cap seating fully on the nipple before the first hammer pull?  A nipple that has been peened over a little may have expanded at the top, or have a little lip or rollover that's stopping the cap from fully seating.  When that happens the first hammer strike seats the cap fully, then the second one ignites the cap.  The new nipple you tried should have cured this kind of problem unless the new nipple is a little large and the cap is not fully seating on it either.

2.  If you've had the lock or barrel off of the gun, the hammer/nipple alignment may have change a little when it was put back together.  Put a cap on the nipple and lower the hammer very slowly to see if any part of the hammer is dragging against the side of the cap.

3.  The face of the hammer may not be hitting the cap "flat".  Put some sort of marker on the top of the nipple (lipstick) and lower the hammer slowly.  Then lift it and see if the marker left a full circle on the hammer face.

4.  Lastly (and least likely) the hammer spring has lost its OOMPH.
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Offline JBlk

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Re: cap problems
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2008, 01:11:12 AM »
I had the same problem with my deercreek mountain type rifle.Some times it would shoot perfectly for shot after shot and then suddenly misfire, usually when it was sighted in on a deer.I disassembled the lock and polished all the surfaces, re tempered the main spring, but the misfires continued.The hammer appeared to be striking the nipple correctly.Finally I heated the hammer and bent it inward and my misfires disappeared.

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: cap problems
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2008, 05:46:54 AM »
I took my cva out this weekend and found I had a problem I have to pull the trigger twice on the  cap before it will fire I tried a new nipple witch was worse I also tryed new #11magnum cap as well with no luck
The first thing I'd check is to look closely at how the hammer sits on the cap, it is common to see the hammer not quite aligned with the nipple and dragging on the side of the cap. Another very easy check is after applying the cap,  and with the rifle pointed downrange, lower the hammer onto the cap and press it down hard. Often the cap may not be fully seated on the nipple and the first hammer fall drives it on down so that the second fall fires it. If that is the case then the solution is to polish the nipple down to a slightly smaller diameter, just a few thousandths will do.
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Offline forest2

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Re: cap problems
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2008, 08:37:09 PM »
I've seen this problem more times than I can tell ya.
 Those barrel drum breeches move. The problem is after so many shots it begins to tip forward, then the hammer doesn't strike the nipple face at a perfect 90/ aka flat.
 Ya gotta find a way to turn that drum back a bit. It's a simple fix, with 14 ways to do it right and a 100 way's to do it wrong. It's just the physics of a spanish made barrel/drum breech. Find some proper tools, maybe a vise, and care for the gun. It's OK, it's your gun, grab a wrench and tune it. :)
 it's the same as a T/C or Lyman lock and those darn lock plate screws that lossen. It's just something that needs to be cared for on a regular basis.
 

Offline captchee

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Re: cap problems
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2008, 03:42:27 AM »
A word here  concerning the last post .
 Drum bolsters SHOULD NOT MOVE.
 If they do its because they have not seated or shouldered properly . They must be set tight and aligned properly at that position  where they  seal .
 If the bolster doesn’t seal , fouling gets in the threaded . .
 If you bolster is coming lose  and must be constantly tightened , its telling you something  is wrong and needs to be replace . This doesn’t mater  if it’s a VA or a drum bolster on a custom gun.

 Now another thing  to consider here . CVA no longer uses a short necked  drum bolster . They use a  through bolster .  This reaches  not only through the barrel wall but completely across the bore .
 The breech plug itself is of an improved  breech design . As such it is center drilled . The neck of the bolster goes all the way across this chamber and faces against the opposite wall .  In a couple cases I have found where they go all the way through the plug and face to the of side of the inner barrel wall .
 The bolster is also soft steal . As such over tightening will stretch the threads . Your thinking your tightening , but what you really doing is twisting the  neck and will eventually weaken it .
So be  very carful  with  your adjustments .
 If you bolster is continually coming lose , take it to a competent gunsmith and have it fixed  OR learn how to fix it correctly yourself .
 The life you save wont be your own but it could very well be the person standing on the bolster side of your rifle .

 Now as to  your cap problem .
 There are a couple things to consider .
1) you could have a weak main spring . This is common  with CVA .
2) your hammer  may not be aligning properly .  A large % of the time this is very common with The smaller CVA locks . But  I find that its do to the softness  and weakness in the hammer .
A simple , easy and safe thing to fix . If this is a problem you  find out by looking at the cap  and seeing how the hammer is contacting the cap . Or you can look up into the hammer cup and see the wear mark .
 it’s a common miss conception that a hammer must contact the full face of the nipple .
 It is preferable that this happen , but it isn’t necessary . All  the hammer has to do is strike  a small area  to set the cap off
3) is an  issue that many folks don’t know or misunderstand. See you can use a #11 cap on a #10 nipple  but you will have a problem if you try and use a #10 cap on a #11 nipple .
 Recently I have found that  the standardization amount the cap companies , especially CCI and Remington   with their caps being alittle undersize . This relates directly to #4
4)  think on this  CVA , Pedersoli , investment arms , traditions , are all made in Europe. CVA and traditions being made by the same  parent company called Jukar .
 Now they all use metric threads . But past that the nipples , bolster threads , breech plugs and such are all milled to metric standards .
As such you can run into an issue with caps  not fitting all the way down on the  nipples .

 If this is the case you can easily fix it by  taking a light diamond file and  lightly touching up around the outside diameter of the nipple . This will often let the  cap set all the way down .

 The other thing you can do is what others have said .  When you place the cap , push it down hard with your thumb .

Anyway that’s some things I have found in my years as a gunsmiths that you might want to consider

Offline wgr

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Re: cap problems
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2008, 02:17:48 PM »
nipples to big take and turn it down some . not to much whats happening is the first hammer drop is seating the cap and the second is firing it
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Offline forest2

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Re: cap problems
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2008, 02:39:10 PM »
If you bolster is coming lose  and must be constantly tightened , its telling you something  is wrong and needs to be replace .
Right! but the common trouble is the bolster moves forward! as in tightening not loosening.
 If the hammer striking just a part or enough of the cap is enough to make it go off,,then the problem would be the cap snapping with no ignition of the main charge.
 the problem is the cap not going off.
 If ti were a "metric" issue of # 10 vrs. #11 caps on a, why wouldn't the replacement of a factory euro nipp with an american type like red hots or uncle mikes not fix the trouble? it's a common problem that generally doesn't require a gunsmith.
 
 

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: cap problems
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2008, 05:16:10 PM »
You can use a washer if the drum moves any. Just buy an assortment of thicknesses and find the right one.

Offline captchee

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Re: cap problems
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2008, 03:06:06 PM »
 Negative  on the last to comments  when it comes to CVA  rifles
 See if the bolster turns forward , then it means the bolster was never seated completely   thus needs replace . The bolster cannot turn forward  if its seated to its face

 Now  as to putting a washer . This can work  if the boster is a short neck bolster like on early CVA’s or on custom rifles
 With a short necked bolster , it only goes through the  barrel wall , sometimes just alittle into the breech , but not all the way through .
  See a bolster is done two ways . In production guns  the threads are indexed  so they can drill and tap for the nipple  and know that it will then align to the hammer .
 On custom guns  this also can be done . However most smiths simply install a blank  bolster , the then mark the alignment to the hammer . Then using a nipple jig , they  drill for the nipple and  bobs your uncle . But even then the bolster must be fully seated  before  the bolster is drilled and tapped .
 If not , then the  bolster will not seal  and when tightened down to seal ,  the alignment will be off .
 Placing a washer  will  move that alignment even more unless  its way off .
 If we think about it  we can see that .  If the bolster turns even ¼ turn , how far off will your nipple be . So one must know the distance of travel  of the  threads itself  often times 1/32 space will = a ¼ turn , depending on the thread count of the bolster

 Simply put fellas , there is a right way and a wrong way to do things . Obviously folks can do what they like , but  that doesn’t make them right or for that mater safe