Accuracy difference between 4 3/4" and 6"??

[Wiking]

Well the title kinda says it all. How big, if any, accuracy difference is there between these two lengths? I'm thinking of distances between 25 and 50 yards??

[dbriannelson]

The school solution is that there is no inherent "accuracy" difference based on barrel length, but that longer barrels are easier for the shooter to use.  That means the shooter is more "accurate" with a longer barrel, though the revolver is not.

-Don

[EdK]

Agree with Don

"I" am much better with a 6" barrel.

[Ken ONeill]

In mechanical accuracy, there is no inherent difference. From a personal standpoint, my groups are perhaps 25% smaller with a 6", and maybe 35-40% (?) smaller with a 7 1/2", due to improved sight alignment.

[Wiking]

Okay... maybe it just comes down to practice. I've gone down 1 grain on my current load since I noticed unburned powder when ejecting the casings.....

[Lloyd Smale]

a lighter powder charge will usually make the unburned powder issue worse. Most powders burn better with increased pressure not decreased.

[Wiking]

Okay, then why do I have this unburned powder issue? Is it because I use 2400? The bullet is a 142gr Fiocchi.....

[bilmac]

When I was in law enforcement, I could hardly tell any difference between a 4" and a 2 1/2" barrel, but that was all timed fire and almost all double action. Now I have a 4 1/2" and a 6 1/2" blackhawk, and the difference is so great that I almost never shoot the short barrel gun, the only reason I don't sell it is because I may start cowboy shooting again if I can ever find a club that shoots some time other than Sunday morning.

[Wiking]

.... and yes I use small rifle primers.

[Graybeard]

Okay, then why do I have this unburned powder issue? Is it because I use 2400? The bullet is a 142gr Fiocchi.....

Technically speaking you DO NOT have an unburned powder issue what you actually have is the residue that burning 2400 leaves. Folks have been mistaking it for unburned powder forever. It's not. Notice the color of the powder before you load it than look at the color afterward. It's burned it just leaves a lot of residue unlike most others. Live with it or change powders. Me I'll live with it cuz I like the results it gives.

[Wiking]

Wow I did not know that. It's just cause it looks so much like unburned powder. Great, thanks.

Here's another concern of mine. A guy at the gun range told me that with high pressure loads, the possibility exists that, because some slow powders (like 2400) burn all the way through the barrel, it can damage the grooves over time. He said that this is a problem especially with wildcat cartridges, because much powder is pushed though a small hole. And since I am using 2400 and am considering a wildcat conversion, he kinda put a little scare into me! Is there any truth to this??

[Graybeard]

Lotsa folks know very little but think they know a whole lot. What has been proven many times over in experimentation is that smokeless powders burn within the first very few inches of barrel regardless of the powder charge and barrel length.

Burn rates do vary a bit and so do powder charges. BUT it's safe to say regardless of the firearm even those huge cases like the Remington Ultra Mags and the huge Weatherby cases it's all burned in less than 6" of barrel.

How hot the powder burns and how fast you shoot which affects how hot the barrel gets plays a larger role in barrel life. Stop worrying and start shooting. You should be so fortunate as to wear out your barrel. It means you've really put in a lot of time with it and hopefully gained huge enjoyment from it. If you live long enough and shoot enough to do it just be happy and replace that by now really old and worn out barrel.

[Wiking]

Since mine is a 4 3/4" it's safe to say that the powder burns all the way through the barrel. I quess my real concern is that if and when the barrel is worn out, it might not be possible for me to ship it back to FA to get it rebarreled. Since 9/11 getting a weapon INTO the US is almost impossible, so I've been told. Do you know of any FA revolvers that have had to be rebarreled due to something like this?? Would it be better to use a powder which develops less flames and muzzle flash than for instance 2400??

[Graybeard]

In your case with the .357 Magnum all powder is likely burned within the first couple inches or less. You should be so lucky as to wear out the barrel on your FA in your life time. I doubt you can.

Stop worrying and just shoot it.

[Wiking]

Okay then. Thanks GB. I'll stop bitching and start shooting 

[Golfswithwolves]

The sight radius is a big factor in accuracy; I suggest that the balance of the revolver also plays a big part. If you are firing from a rest, then you don't care very much how the revolver feels. But if you are standing up on your hind legs and shooting, then I find that sometimes a shorter-barreled gun is easier to hold steady than a longer-barreled one- this may be more significant for accuracy in this circumstance than the sight radius. (Your experience may vary)

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree. I shoot a short barreled gun better off hand then a long barreled gun and do just as good on the bench with a short barreled gun (within reason) as i do a long. Greybeard is right about the powder. Most of what your seeing is probably filler in the powder that doesnt burn. 4227 is even more notorious then 2400 for this. No matter what the load it looks like you have unburned powder in your gun. I dont know your load but if its still below the max listed in your manual try bumping it up a little. if you really are getting unburned powder and not just residue that should help a little. I have to question why you are using small rifle primers in your sixgun. I WOULD NOT DO IT unless fa recomends it. Rifle primers can have a higher cup and when seated all the way in a pistol case can stick up enough that recoil can drive them  back against the recoil sheild and therorecticaly set them off. IVe never seen it happen but i still dont want to be a test case. Mag pistol primers are plenty hot enough for any 357 load. Most people WILL NOT ever wear out the barrel on a handgun. Worst case senerio is shooting thousands of loads with light bullets and ball powders like 110 and especially lilgun will wear out the forcing cone of a barrel but im talking substaintial shooting. If you must load like this load heavier bullets or just keep loads with those powders for hunting and not constant shooting. Alot of rapid fire shooting will also heat up the forcing cone enough to errode it. I think FA now is telling people not to use lilgun in there guns. If you take these percautions you will not shoot out your barrel in your lifetime or probably your childrens lifetime.

[Ken ONeill]

Cast bullets will also be easier on the bore than jacketed bullets. As stated by others, 2400 will be easier on forcing cones than the ball powders like 296, H-110, etc. It will also be easier on the bore than very fast burning powders. With 2400 in your 357, small  pistol primers will work, as will small magnum pistol primers, which I personally prefer ( in most calibers, my tests have shown ~50-125 fps increase in velocity with the magnum primers).
Having said all this, I personally use more jacketed bullets than cast, and although I use 2400 a lot, I also use a lot of 296 and H-110 in various calibers. Why? Because it takes a LOT of shooting to create significant throat and barrel erosion in a well built revolver. In almost 50 years of shooting big bores, I've "had" to have one rebarreled...a SBH after several years of very very heavy IHMSA competition and many thousands of rounds, all of it using 240 JHP's and 296. In fact, as it turned out, the new barrel shot no better than the eroded barrel, so I didn't really "have to" have it done!
I spent, and you will spend, more money on ammo than it will take to replace the gun, before you wear it out, with proper care.

[Wiking]

The reason I use small rifle primers is because someone on this forum told me to. I also use Bludot, and some pretty hot loads. The guy who gave me the reloading data said that if I use pistol primers they will "flow" and that this would cause the revolver to jam. I've never used anything other than small rifle primers.

What is lilgun??

[MarkH]

There are some people whose loading recommendations I would take for granted, but by and large the internet is not the place to get loading data.  I would use the powder/primer recommendation of the powder and bullet manufacturers as per the published manuals.  BTDT.

Lil Gun is a Hodgdon powder.

[doghawg]

The reason I use small rifle primers is because someone on this forum told me to. I also use Bludot, and some pretty hot loads. The guy who gave me the reloading data said that if I use pistol primers they will "flow" and that this would cause the revolver to jam. I've never used anything other than small rifle primers.

 My experience with Blue Dot is that it is easy to light and doesn't require a super hot spark. I use Win standard small pistol primers in my Mod 97 in .357 with blue dot....with outstanding accuracy. I also use blue dot as an upper mid-range powder and prefer 296 or H110 for max loads.

 MarkH's advice was right on IMHO...verify any internet loading data with a good loading manual.

[Graybeard]

Wiking I don't recall right now if your FA is an 83 or 97 tho I'm sure you did tell us back when you got it. There has been a lot of really over pressure load data listed in various less than reliable places for the FA83 in .357 Magnum. It is hell for stout to be sure and the revolver likely can live with those super high pressure loads but the cases might not.

If yours is an FA97 you really shouldn't be using anything above book loads in it and if it's an FA83 I'd still highly recommend you stick to book loads.

Now having said that there are book loads and then there are book loads from days of old. When I first began shooting the .357 Magnum the standard was a 158 grain at 1550 fps as I recall. I remember buying ammo likely made by Norma for Browning with the Browning name on the box. That was the listed velocity of the 158 grain bullets in those loads. They were some kinda fast for sure for the old round and highly accurate. I used them to win a lot of matches using my S&W 19 6" revolvers back then.

Today not even 125s are pushed that fast under SAAMI pressures. I didn't have a chrono in those days so can't verify the bullets actually were moving that fast but I can say with certainty the recoil from them far exceeded anything the factories put out today.

In those days loading data manuals also commonly listed much hotter loads than today. I do believe a really strong revolver like the FA83 or even the N-frame S&Ws and Rugers likely could still take those old higher pressure and higher velocity loads. I know my S&W 19s and 66s took a lot of them and so did my later 586 and 686 revolvers. There is no way I'd post the loads I used in those days even if I could remember them as they are well above SAAMI level.

But if you are using those SUPER LOADS for FA83 ONLY I'd highly recommend you back off to more sane levels.

[Wiking]

Dawg: Aha, maybe I should try using small pistol magnum instead. You think that would have any effect of accuracy? Don't really care about the velocity. I do fear the flowing issue though.

GB, yes it is a M83. Most of the loading data comes from a book/manual, don't know the name (only have digital copies), at the buttom of the pages it just says "Buyers guide 1992/1993" on the left and "Shooting and hunting" on the right. I also have some loading data from a magazine called "Handguns" - April issue of 1995, the articles are written by a guy named Terry Murbach. The article states that the loads should be used only in FA 83's. They used Starline Brass and CCI 450 small rifle magnum primers. Can mail them to you if you like.....

I only use Starline brass. I always inspect casings before reloading them. The fired primers look a little flat, but primer pockets are not expanded.

[Graybeard]

It's your gun and your body parts so do as you wish. But I suspect you are working with pressures that far exceed the highest SAAMI pressures for any cartridge out there including the magnum rifle rounds and the really high pressure .454 Casull. I'm sure they void your warranty.

Yes the cylinder is no doubt up to the task so folks assume it's safe but the brass is not made for such pressures. If you are flattening primers from pressure (not necessarily the case just because they are flat) then you are likely in the 80,000 psi range.

I consider it extremely foolish to use such loads. Get some reliable reloading manuals and use data from them not from some unreliable source as it seems you are using now.

[doghawg]

Wiking

 In my Mod 97 I used a starting charge (middle charge in some manuals) of Blue Dot with 158 gr. JHP's with both Win std and mag primers and the std primed loads grouped much better. The load was averaging at just over 1200 fps out of the 5 1/2" barrel. While this can be said for any powder, it's always seemed to me that Blue Dot is especially sensitive to finding it's "sweet spot" loading level in regards to accuracy.
 For loads in the 1400 fps range I ended up with near max loads (loading manual max) of Alliant 2400 over a Win magnum pistol primer and again got little tiny groups from a rest. I've only had the gun for a few months and on the next range trip will cook up a 900 to 1000 fps load with cast bullets and these three loads will cover anything I'll want to do with a .357.

[torpedoman]

back to the basic question the longer barrel give you an increased sight radius which improves YOUR accuracy.

[Wiking]

GB:

I see what you mean. I just don't understand why a magazine would print loads that develop too much pressure? I just assumed that the loads were perfectly safe to use, since they were printed in a well-known magazine.

[Graybeard]

Yes and no on the safe part.

The firearm no doubt is strong enough the problem is the brass as it was never designed to withstand such pressures. In times past magazines have printed lots of unsafe load data. They are less inclined to these days but even now they often print data well over SAAMI pressure limits. That doesn't necessarily make them dangerous just because they exceed SAAMI limits but it makes them potentially dangerous.

If those loads ever got into another .357 magnum firearm chances are it will be taken completely apart by them. Say a S&W Model 60 J-frame .357 Magnum or a Taurus or anyone of dozens of others. It just isn't wise to make such loads.

[Wiking]

Yes I am well aware that other revolvers could blow up, which is why I mark my boxes ".353 Casull ONLY", and always close them when walking out to the targets. 80% of my loads have a COL of 1.685", which makes it physically impossible to fit them in a cylinder of normal size.

So you mean to say that danger could occur if a brass succumbs to the pressure? Then the gun could suffer? I can pick up hundreds of once-fired Magtech brass on the firing-range, so changing my brass regularly is no issue. That said, I am always 1 or 2 grains under the maximum listed in my data....

[Lee Robinson]

Once the bullet comes out the other side...what else is there to gain in a given size caliber? My thoughts are the only gain is a bigger hole...meaning a bigger caliber to make a bigger hole.

Why push them faster than "pass through" bone velocity.