Author Topic: What is a "shoulder shot" Or "breaking a shou  (Read 2666 times)

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Offline JJHACK

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or "breaking a shou
« on: August 08, 2003, 07:07:21 PM »
This question  has come up many times in my lodge when the hunters are deciding on where to shoot our African game.

First I think it's best to sort out a few terms. Such as "shoulder". The shoulder is not a bone, it's a joint it's also referred to as the muscular region around the scapula and humerus.  I would bet the great mojority of people don't fully understand this bit of anatomy. The scapula is also know as or referred to as the shoulder blade. The humerus is the first long bone of the front leg which is connected to the scapula.  There is no single part of the anatomy that is a Shoulder, but rather an area that is called the shoulder.



In this Kudu anatomy drawing you can see the scapula is not really covering anything vital. A small portion of the spine which is a very small target to define when under the skin and muscle. If the shot is too high the bones can still be hit solid, but no vital organs will take a direct hit. A miss of the scapula too low is much better.


When you hear a person say they broke the shoulder(s) they typically refer to that (in my opinion) as the scapula or humerus bones.  An absolutely dead on the money bullseye into the shoulder would be the joint between the two. However I challange anyone to show me they have broken them both!

Shooting through the shoulders is simple enough but does not always mean any bones were broken, or vital organs hit. I have a shoulder blade right here on my desk from a black bear that has a healed bullet hole right through it. It has another hole from my bullet which killed the bear.

If an animal has the shoulder joint between the scapula and humerus broken on both sides they cannot make forward progress with there front legs. That is plain and simple. If you shoot too high through the shoulder blades you will be below the spine and above the organs just as this scapula I have shows. If you blow through the humerus you will in nearly every case hit vital organs and make  quick death of the animal.



This shows the relationship of the scapula and actual humerus bones. The lower Humerus was from the other side of this bear, or opposite front leg. It was shot and broken and then healed just fine allowing this bear to keep on living although he had a severe limp. The scapula also had a bullet hole on the top edge. My bullet hit lower and killed the bear many years after the original hunter wounded him by taking the shoulder shot only inches too high.



The great majority of hunters I have heard say" I broke the shoulders" are referring to the front legs being broken.  My question would be( if I was rude) lets skin him and see what's broken I want you to show me where the shoulder is.  It would never be identifed properly by the majority of people.

I like the low scapula shot and take it often.  Anyone shooting this way must have a fair bit of anatomy knowledge. This whole assembly floats inside the body. The front scapula and leg bones are not linked to the rest of the skeleton with a joint. They are free floating and have no skeletal connection to the rest of the skeleton's bones. From the scapula down they are only connected to each other and not the rest of the skeleton. Again most hunters don't picture it this way and most assume there is some big joint connecting the front legs to the main skeleton similiar to the pelvis joint.



This is a closer photo of the off side broken Humerus bone which had completely healed. It's 30% shorter then the other side, but this bear lived many years after being  shot in the leg. My guess is the bears leg was far forward climbing up hill or even a tree and the bullet that broke this leg exited the armpit and missed the body completely.

Because of this when an animal walks climbs or stands up hill or down hill the joints in the front legs move a great distance. The scapula can move nearly a foot under the skin in every direction, it's loose under there and moves all around depending upon the stride or reach of the animal.

Making this your aimpoint causes various concerns depending upon the way the animal is standing. The bones on the right do not always match the bones on the left either. They are fully independent of one another.  I like to "break the shoulders" but what exactly does that mean?

To me it means break the humerus or the joint connecting the humerus to the scapula. Anything higher is non vital except for the very small section of spine( although likely pretty painful) and lower is below any reasonable reference to a shoulder shot.  Even though lower can be a perfect heart shot and still very lethal.

With some high powered rifles and explosive bullets a shot through the scapula will destroy enough bone that the additional fragmnets will explode into the chest cavity causing additional hemorage of vital organs.

I think the most important thing to remember about the whole thing is not to deliberately shoot for the scapula but rather just below it or at the bottom of it. A shot going only a few inches high will be a complete distaster and the animal will run for a long way! Missing the mark on the lower side is going to be better every time.

Here is another angle of the scapula above showing the top edge of the bullet hole. Not much of a miss too high, but it was enough to allow him to survive for years. It has quite a lot of abnormal growth but the hole is still through it.

 

I think it's important to understand these concepts before you go out and start trying to bust shoulders!
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Offline akpls

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Thanks for the Info
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2003, 07:46:45 AM »
JJ, thanks for this great post!  I'm heading to Namibia next year for a kudu hunt and will definitely add this to the info I'm collecting.  akpls

Offline 414SM-E.T.GATES

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Shoulder shot
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2003, 04:14:01 PM »
:gun4: My father always told me " there was no excuse for the first well placed shot"  After going to Africa with him I understood why he told us to shoot top of shoulder shots.  After all the stalking was over the shot preperation was at hand, you wanted to hit the trophy animal in a place where he was not able to run off.  Most times you only get one shot.  Cape Buffalo and the Elephant were the exceptions to this rule.  With over 40 trips to Africa and hunting many other countries, I didn't argue with success.
SUPERMAG505
Father E.T. Gates inventor of the Supermags.  I have books, Load Data Wesson parts, Brass and Dies. "There is no excuse for that first well placed shot"  Elgin Gates

Offline JJHACK

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2003, 03:55:11 AM »
I think you meant to write there is no excuse for a poor first shot, or something like that. What you wrote does not make any sense, at least to me.

" there was no excuse for the first well placed shot"

The "high shoulder shot" has the real potential of missing all internal organs with the low possibility of a spine hit. Most Americans aim much too high on the shoulder. Just read through this text and you will see the photo of a high shoulder shot on the bear whose scapula is pictured. The high shoulder shot poked a hole clean through that bone and he lived for many years. Because African game does not bleed much shooting too high eliminates much of the likely blood trail help we hope for. Lower on the front chest area will certainly poke a hole through the vital organs.

All through the Professional hunting academy training I was in, we were drilled with not shooting above the midway point of the body and to make sure every client we take from out of the country understands this.

In every camp I worked for in the first several years we sat the arriving hunters down to talk about shot placement before the hunting started. During those discussions it was clearly stated to shoot below the midway point on the animal.

[/b]
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Offline myronman3

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2003, 05:01:11 PM »
outstanding and informative post!  thanks for sharing this.   although this cat will never get to africa, i think everyone might gain from this.

Offline 414SM-E.T.GATES

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Top of Shoulder
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2003, 03:20:08 PM »
    Somehow I think you got the message that it's the first shot that counts, especially trophy hunting.  Although our methods may be different and our teachers have different opinions about where to place that first shot, one might ask, how do we measure success?  Is sucess measured by how many World Class Trophys we have on the walls, or how many listings we have in the R&W record book?  Could it be hunters love to hunt and one man's method might be as good as anothers.  What works for you might not work for me.  How about 30 Cal. vs 7mm  How many opinions would that generate?  SUPERMAG 505
Father E.T. Gates inventor of the Supermags.  I have books, Load Data Wesson parts, Brass and Dies. "There is no excuse for that first well placed shot"  Elgin Gates

Offline JJHACK

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2003, 05:41:33 PM »
What works for me is actually what REALLY works. You see we shoot between 150 and  200 big game per season here. Over the last 11 seasons that is about 2000 big game killed. I'm not talking 100 pound animals but animals from 100 pounds to 6000 pounds! I have seen every kind of bullet, rifle, and shot placement known to man.  I wrote this long elaborite post with the photo's to clear up any doubt about what is "right and what is wrong" with the shoulder shot.

There are not two ways to make this right. There is only one way to be "right" and several ways to be "lucky". I chose to teach what is right just as I learned it in the Professional Hunting Academy of South Africa. More importantly in what I have experienced in thousands of big game animals I have seen shot personally.
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Offline 414SM-E.T.GATES

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No excuse for that "FIRST" well placed shot
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2003, 04:21:01 PM »
:gun4: JJ, Jack Blacklaws never disagreed with the point of shoulder shot.  You probley don't know who he was and could care less about other peoples opinion.  You might ask your school GURU's if Blacklaws opinion as a guide was any good.  JJ I know one thing, the trophies I shot dropped and never ran off.  If you want to use the gut- shoot method and follow your blood trails, you make my day.  That's why that first well placed shot is so important.  JJ I admire you.  There are few hunters that live to tell the tale, about following a wounded cape buffalo blood trail into a thicket.  I don't know if you fit in that catagory.  Some people call that brave, I call it buffoonery.  I don't pretend to be an expert on hunting, I've been taught a method that works.  If that is baffling to the expert School Guru's, then they might have to re-think there so-called RIGHT method.  JJ I respect your opinion and it's OK if we don't see eye-to-eye on this deal.  Next time your in the bush stalking that record book Kudu remembering you have to walk in the leaf and broken twigs heal first... but you made too much noise.  Your detected,....Now you have 5 seconds or less to snap-shoot.  Where will you place that shot ?  An experienced man will know!         Good Hunting     SUPERMAG505
Father E.T. Gates inventor of the Supermags.  I have books, Load Data Wesson parts, Brass and Dies. "There is no excuse for that first well placed shot"  Elgin Gates

Offline JJHACK

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2003, 04:50:28 PM »
I have no idea what your talking about with gut shots? what thread are you talking about? Clearly it's not this one!

Your quote "If you want to use the gut- shoot method and follow your blood trails, you make my day"

Where in this entire thread was there a single word or even a mention of a "gut shot"  made? Please don't get off topic and write some unrelated post now. Just tell me and every other poster reading this thread where the text is at regarding the gut shots.

Seems like I'll just decide to cut my losses on this and let you continue to believe what you like. The amount of game dropped on the shot is in a great minority from the most expert shots in the world. CNS shots are not a practical means of placing shots for sport hunters. I challange anyone alive to tell me they can consistantly make spine shots on every animal under all conditions. They would be telling an awefully tall tale to say such a thing.

I would ask you just how many big game you have shot in your life, and what percentage have fallen in their tracks to your spine shot placement methods? I'm baffled at your comments, your writing style regarding the "gut shots" and your bold comments with out a clear explanation of what your talking about regarding a "high shoulder shot".

What is a high shoulder shot to you? To drop game in their tracks as you say it's not a shoulder shot at all but rather a spine shot.  In any case rather then disput what I have written in this thread with contridictory comments please share your detailed explanation of a "high sholder shot" for the readers here.
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Offline Graybeard

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2003, 11:46:44 AM »
Like you Jim folks who speak of always dropping the deer to the shot with anything other than a CNS shot baffle me. Folks who shoot for the CNS intentionally make me just wonder.

I shoot for the lungs/heart and some times things happen and the fall to the shot. Usually they run off leaving a strong blood trail as I use bullets that will exit and leave a good trail when needed. Then too I've let that bullet slide a bit and hit spine a couple times and for sure that puts them down rat now but I sure don't shoot for it.

The shoulder shot is one talked about more on forums such as this than any other save maybe the neck shot. I've often heard it explained that hitting the shoulder transmits that shock to the spine via that connection folks seem to think is there. Like you say the front shoulder is free floated and never attached to the spine in anyway. When I read such posts by folks I feel quite confident the amount of game they've taken is quite low.

Never seen an animal run all that far yet with both lungs or the heart exploded and useless. Run they will be not that far.

GB


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Offline 414SM-E.T.GATES

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2003, 05:11:16 PM »
:gun4: JJ,  I think your a sincere and honest man.  You have steadfast opinion about shot placement.  That's OK with me.  We  have what they call a Mexican stand-off.  This means you won't change my mind and I never intended to change yours.  I have never advocated a spine shot.  That, my friend is something you put into the mix.  My game dropped and never ran off.  The point is... there is no blood trail to follow.  For an animal to fall in it's tracks?  Thats something you said.  Blacklaws, your fellow country-man didn't see anything wrong with where we placed our shots.  Point of shoulder shots works for me.  In the final analysis that's what really counts.  Have a safe hunt.  Supermag505
Father E.T. Gates inventor of the Supermags.  I have books, Load Data Wesson parts, Brass and Dies. "There is no excuse for that first well placed shot"  Elgin Gates

Offline JJHACK

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2003, 05:30:03 PM »
Can't explain the shot placement that does not break the spine but folds the game. Exactly what I expected as a reply!
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Offline myronman3

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2003, 05:50:59 PM »
i am understanding jjhacks point as shooting into the lower front of the chest.   by looking at anatomical pictures of african game (which i have heard from more than one source the vitals are structured different than n. american game) it seems reasonable to me.   i think so many hunters could gain from paying more attention to this.  
   what baffels me is how the deer i have shot with my 270 fold instantly yet others shooting similar calibers get different results.   i have killed em with 12 gauge sllugs, alot with 20 g. slugs, a bunch with 35 remingtons, and 30-06.  i found my true love after smoking the first one with my 270.   i mean they didnt even TWITCH!  and these were shot through the heart/lung shot.   i do not endorse (or even think it is wise) to try to intentionally cns hit an animal on the first shot mainly because there is just too great a margin for error.    looking at the diagram of the kudu it is hard for me to understand what is so hard to understand about jj's point.   seems obvious to me.        
    as a side note, i brained a deer once with my 20.  it was far more drawn out than the chest shots with my 270.   so i dont buy into the train of thought that cns hits are more effective.

Offline TScottO

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2003, 03:49:54 PM »
JJHACK,

Do you have pictures of anatomy that well defined for hogs, whitetail deer, bear, moose and elk? I'd like a copy of them if you do. Here's my email: overlans@bellsouth.net

Good luck and be safe
Scott

Offline JJHACK

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2003, 04:40:32 PM »
I have bear and a warthog Many others you mentioned should be about the same as the Kudu. Some of these will be published in the second edition of the book I wrote called "Africa the first time"
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Offline akpls

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2003, 05:23:24 AM »
Quote from: TScottO

Do you have pictures of anatomy that well defined for hogs, whitetail deer, bear, moose and elk? I'd like a copy of them if you do. Here's my email: overlans@bellsouth.net


TScottO, look for the book called "The Perfect Shot - North American Game" by Boddington.  It has anatomical diagrams of all the North American big game animals.  There's also a version for African game to expand on jjhack's info.

Offline RollTide

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2003, 06:04:59 AM »
JJ,
Oustanding post.  I have really appreciated what you have shared from you vast experince.  It has been extremely helpful to me as a hunter and outdoorsman who is only able to spend a few weekends a year outdoors.  

Thanks as well to the other posters for the addition info and references.

Roll Tide

Offline Lloyd Smale

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2004, 11:15:12 PM »
im another one thats guilty of telling people i broke the shoulder with a simualar shot but like you say its the leg bone that is really broke. Good post
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Offline VFR

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2004, 07:54:59 AM »
JJ,
Thanks for the excellent post.  I had a "pocket" copy of "The Perfect Shot" to study on the flight to Namibia this past September.  I used a 300 H&H with factory 180gr FailSafes.  I was lucky enough to get a broadside shot at 180yds and placed the bullet in line with the front leg, just a bit lower than the junction of the bottom and middle third of the chest.  He didn't go 10 yards.  Mature bull measuring 54 inches.  Bob

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What is a "shoulder shot" Or &quo
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2004, 01:28:39 PM »
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