Author Topic: 223 vs 204 vs 17 (Read 4600 times)

horsepower · « **on:** October 28, 2008, 01:12:41 PM »

I need a better predator rifle and am down to these three choices. I save the pelts
so I want minimum damage but I also want the stopped cold. I don't hand load and
don't really have an interest in doing so, so with that in mind, which caliber do
you think the best option for fur friendly over the counter loads.

Swampman · « **Reply #1 on:** October 28, 2008, 01:16:30 PM »

Don Fischer · « **Reply #2 on:** October 28, 2008, 01:18:54 PM »

Tuff question as I don't shoot factory ammo. You might check with Hornady and see if they load 223 ammo with the 50gr sx bullet. I know hand loaders using it and it won't shoot thru a coyote.

sachel.45 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 28, 2008, 02:19:23 PM »

Catfish · « **Reply #4 on:** October 29, 2008, 04:23:00 AM »

If your not going to load your own, I would also recomand the .223. You will have to sew up afew more holes, but you will put down more.

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** October 29, 2008, 04:56:13 AM »

The .17 Remington Fireball or maybe the .17 Remington but it's more likely to do hide damage I suspect. Use the 20 grain bullets and you shouldn't get any exits.

trotterlg · « **Reply #6 on:** October 29, 2008, 01:47:20 PM »

If you don't reload you are kind of in a fix. The 17 FB with the 20gr bullets is a little light for Coyotes, about right for Foxes, the 17 Mach 4 wildcat (near identical to the FB) was mostly loaded with 25 gr bullets and had good success with the Coyotes. The 17 Remington is the classic Coyote rifle with 25gr bullets, I use one with 30gr Bergers but the match BT HP I use is out of production now. You can still get the factory 25gr HP which would be my factory choice. There are some other good 30gr hp bullets for the 17 but since you don't hand load they are out. Walmart used to have some 45gr HP .223 rounds, white box Winchester as I recall, they did fairly well, and the 204 Ruger is kind of a 17 wantabe, not quite either the 223 or the 17 Remington. Good luck, to do it right you probably should take up reloading. Larry

Don Fischer · « **Reply #7 on:** October 29, 2008, 02:57:48 PM »

I was thinking, you don't say what range you need. I've eliminated a bunch of stock chasing dogs about coyote size and larger with a 22 mag and they don't go anywhere hit well. Never saw any pelt damage. I was out today sighting in my 22 mag thinking about using it calling if I could get one within 75yds, it's dead. Actually right now I'd settle for seeing one the same day I called!

Illhunter · « **Reply #8 on:** October 29, 2008, 03:13:33 PM »

22 hornet might also be a consideration depending or range.

richy8357 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 03, 2008, 12:13:33 PM »

i use all three, but it depends on range. .223 is the cheapest of the three if you dont reload. used .204 32 grain ballistic tip they are almost too light for coyotes past 150yds, but 34-39 grain bullets will anchor them to 200yds and beyond. 34 grain hps work graet with very few exits in the 204 (these are about 15-17$/20 rds in my area). .223 rds are 23$/50rds for 55 grain bts. the best round ihave found is in the 22-250 for longer shots on coyote sized critters. these were 45 grain balllistic tips small exits over 150yds. if i were you would buyone of each and try them!! good luck and happy hunting!

Ponydog · « **Reply #10 on:** November 03, 2008, 12:16:07 PM »

PERFORMANCE GUIDE
.17 Rem. Fireball 20-gr. Muzzle 100 yds. 200 yds. 300 yds. 400 yds.
Velcocity (fps) 4,000 3,380 2,840 2,360 1,930
Energy (ft-lbs) 710 507 358 247 165
Arc (inches) -1.5 +0.8 0 -5.1 -16.6
.17 Rem. 20-gr. Muzzle 100 yds. 200 yds. 300 yds. 400 yds.
Velocity (fps) 4,250 3,594 3,028 2,529 2,081
Energy (ft-lbs) 802 574 407 284 192
Arc (inches) -1.5 +0.6 0 -4.4 -14.4
.204 Ruger 40-gr. Muzzle 100 yds. 200 yds. 300 yds. 400 yds.
Velocity (fps) 3,900 3,451 3,046 2,677 2,236
Energy (ft-lbs) 1,351 1,077 855 675 526
Arc (inches) -1.5 +0.7 0 -4.3 -13.2

With more energy, more Velocity and less drop.......I'll be danged if I can see where the 204 is a 17 wanna be......taken from a Cabelas website http://www.huntingmag.com/guns_loads/17remf_062107/

Bugflipper · « **Reply #11 on:** November 03, 2008, 12:29:29 PM »

Personally I favor the 17 rem over the 223 for fur. Never used the other one. On coyote, fox and bobcat there is no exit when put in the boiler room. The 223 tends to tear up fox and bobcat. Extis range from .22 to softball size depending on load.

sk330lc · « **Reply #12 on:** November 04, 2008, 12:57:26 PM »

.223
Use 50Gr ballistic tip Ammo from Rem. or the 55gr V-max load from Hornady. Have yet to have an exit on shoulder shots .

trotterlg · « **Reply #13 on:** November 04, 2008, 07:30:02 PM »

Ponydog: I don't know anyone who shoots a 20 gr bullet in a 17 Remington for Coyotes, there are no factory loads with that bullet. Coyote loads with the 17 Remington are either the 25gr Berger HP match or one of the 30 gr bullets. I use the discointuned 30 gr match HP BT Bergers. Larry

Bugflipper · « **Reply #14 on:** November 04, 2008, 08:25:13 PM »

Trotterlg,
How do the 30 gr Berger's do? A fellow gave me 500 about 6 months ago. I've got a load that is unbelievable, just waiting for the leaves to fall.I haven't shot anything besides paper.

trotterlg · « **Reply #15 on:** November 05, 2008, 03:43:12 AM »

I shoot mine out of a Savage 10 with a 1 in 9 twist barrel that is .500 at the muzzel. It will put as many as you can shoot under a quarter at 100 yards starting from a cold clean bore. Coyotes just mostly flop over and nothing comes out the back side. I use 25.6 gr of Winchester 760 with BR4 primers. For Ponydog: If more energy is better then you should just use a .270, it isn't about how much energy the bullet has it is about having the right amount delivered in the right way. Larry

Bugflipper · « **Reply #16 on:** November 05, 2008, 03:53:25 AM »

Thanks a lot for the info. I was afraid they would pop out the other side. Funny thing that is the exact load to the grain I am using. Mine is coming out of an AR so the oal might be a bit different, still that is ironic.

Ponydog · « **Reply #17 on:** November 05, 2008, 11:51:18 AM »

Beats me Trotter......just pulled if off an article in Cabelas web page.......someone must have used it , I just saw it and thought I'd toss it in........I don't shoot the 40 grain 204 either.....I shoot the 32 gr....and it always seems to make the yotes drop...I just know it does what it says ....it works for my purpose.....

trotterlg · « **Reply #18 on:** November 05, 2008, 03:29:03 PM »

Ponydog: I would say you are probably using the right bullet, a 40gr bullet will probably be too heavy for a Coyote, you will be getting a little more velocity than the 17 Remington out of the barrel, the 30 gr Berger BT will probably have a slightly better BC than the 204 32 gr bullet so down range energy should be simular. You really don't need a lot of energy, you just need it all put into the Coyote, anything that comes out the other side is wasted. I had wanted to use the 25 gr match Bergers, but my 9 twist barrel turned them to dust at top speed so I had to use the 30's and get the down range energy by weight. Mine are leaving the muzzel at about 3,700 fps. I am in WA State and the Coyotes are fairly large, when I am in Arizona in the winter I use a 17 Remington FB with 20gr bullets, the Coyotes are much smaller down there, seems the colder the area the larger the Coyote is? Good luck, I am going down to AZ next week, could be a little early, but I hope to get out to see what I can get to come in. After looking at the numbers you posted I would say the numbers for the 17 Remington are really for a 25 gr bullet, a 20 gr bullet would be up over 4,350 I would say. Larry

Ponydog · « **Reply #19 on:** November 06, 2008, 07:57:58 AM »

Thanks Trotter......I scout cotton here in SE Missouri ....lots of yotes...mostly flat delta land ( we are only 17 miles fronm the Mississippi)....the coyotes here are med size....funny how the ears give them away.........long tall ears....southern yotes...short ones...or the shorter they get...the more northern the yote....Taxadermy man tells me they ventillate heat through the blood vessels in their ears....so bigger ears means more venting in hot weather.....helps them cool ....makes sense........teh coyotes cruise irrigation ditches, and can be seen for long distances crossing op en cultivated fields.....most farmers are more than happy to give permission to take them ..........and snow geese later on in the winter...
I like the 204 because I have had sucess out to 250 yds.....setting up in a tree line....with a couple of turkey feathers suspended by fishing line , and tied to a bamboo stick about a 100 yards in an open field draws some real attention from hawks......the coyotes seem to follow.....they seem to be everywhere in our area.....conservation guys wont give an estimate.......like they do on deer or ducks....but one I asked seem to think there are several hundred per county ......I would say that is a severe understatement

Dave Allen · « **Reply #20 on:** November 08, 2008, 10:43:21 AM »

Horsepower,as you don't reload yet i'd suggest a 223...

I'd suggest 55 grain soft point bullet's,i know their not popular or have the "sex" appeal of other bullet's,but they work..Try the Winchester & Remington green box..Yeah you might not get dime size all day long group's from the bench, a 1 1/2" or so group is fine for coyote calling.

JMO....

Ponydog · « **Reply #21 on:** November 17, 2008, 09:53:36 AM »

Well, I went out Sunday am , daybreak and set up in a corner of a cotton, and harvested bean field......sun was to my right , and I was sitting at the base of an adult White oak....I could not reach around it....and it offered me cover, and shade against the am sun..( although at 29 degrees , it would have felt good) had done my jog out in the darkness out about 175 yards into the open bean field and stuck the thin bamboo stick in the ground, with the 8 inch section of fishing line dangling 3 turkey feathers off it.....the wind was up nicely, so it fluttered away ......got back to the setup and waited for full daylight........it took about 10 - 15 minutes after my first call for a female yote to come ....she came in fast at the feather stick ....at about 300 yards , she either smelled something she did not like, or saw that it was not what she wanted.....too late though ....as she trotted parallel to the stick..I whistled loud , and she came to a dead stop,
I squeezed the trigger and she went down....walked it off at about 240...was shooting 204 cal 32 grain V Max......I have had good luck with these......but I do not know how much past 250 I would stretch it.....as I said the wind was up....so I was proud of the shot...although I read alot of yote hunters that consistantly knock them down with a 22-250 or a 223 or a 243 at 300 yards...so nothing special about my shot....but it was nice to see one come in so fast......as it was openeing weekend in Missouri for Gun season deer...the flat land I hunted , was only about a mile away from the base of the uplands west of here.....and I heard and counted 16 rifle blasts that echoed off the hills to my setup, between 6:30 and 8 am ......good sign of deer movement..........cold morning.....harvest is done...fall colors and a brisk Nov day......another season has truly begun.....I am always thankful to see another one.....

jw83 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 20, 2008, 04:13:26 AM »

+1 for the .223, mainly because you don't reload. The .204 is definitely not a .17 wannabe.

Bill in IL · « **Reply #23 on:** December 29, 2008, 02:49:53 AM »

I also have to vote for the .223

Ahshucks · « **Reply #24 on:** February 04, 2009, 03:51:41 PM »

In your case, mine also, since I haven't started reloading yet to go with the .223. Significant amount of varying ammo out there at very good prices compared to the other calibers.

My plan is to start off with my 308 BLR 2-7x35 Vortex with the reduced recoil load (125gr) to see how they do on coyotes. Will try a couple of offerings in the 110gr next, 55gr next. First purchase after 308 results will be a 223 Stevens to see how that factory ammo performs. Since the Stevens can be rebarrelled easily, I'll pop on a 17REM which is a good round for either fox or coyote. Then I might think about a BLR in 223, CZ527, or VTR.

My guess is the pointed soft point bullet would be a better fur friendly round, or perhaps the Hollow Points, before the plastic pointed frangibles everyone seems to be using. I've noticed others on some other forums are experimenting with them and having great luck even with running shots.

Howler · « **Reply #25 on:** March 05, 2009, 12:36:58 PM »

For predator hunting, Make mine a 223.! hand loaded or not..

The 223 has the ability to reach out 300 yrds which has been more than enough range for me in my 16 yrs of predator hunting/calling..
300 yrds is a long shot under field conditions.! In general, your shots should be 125 yrds or less or you likely have a problem with your calling/setup..

Ladobe · « **Reply #26 on:** March 05, 2009, 05:34:15 PM »

Quote from: trotterlg on October 29, 2008, 01:47:20 PM

...The 17 Remington is the classic Coyote rifle with 25gr bullets...

IMO it's about the ultimate coyote fur choice for a wide range of yardages and all but impossible to improve on. The improvent is the 30 grain bullets. More than enough hydrostatic shock to anchor them where they stand, small entrance holes and both exit holes and splash are not common with well placed shots. The 17M4 isn't too far behind it either for an excellent fur choice. If you reload and wildcat, the 17 DT and 17 Athena with 30 gr bullets are about the same ballistically as the 17 Rem, but have the extra advantage of the short-fat powder colume.

Never had one but would think that the 204 would probably be a close second. Both WB better than the 223 though IMO for a fur choice.

YMMV