Author Topic: .257 Wby Mag?? (Read 1976 times)

melbaLT4 · « **on:** October 29, 2008, 01:14:22 PM »

So we are gearing up for our antelope hunt in a few months and a buddy bought a new vanguard in .257 Wby Mag. WOW! it shoots wonderfully, I did some looking and it seems like a great cartridge but when I went to find and encore bbl. there were none, the only thought is to re-chamber a .26-06. I have heard this is a bad idea which is disappointing, but no one can tell me why for sure. If i cant do this is there another cartridge that will perform close?

thanks
Jeff

Grumulkin · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2008, 03:22:40 PM »

A 25/06 works great for antelope and deer even at extended ranges. Since you want a 257 Weatherby, you will either have to have a custom barrel made or have one rechambered. At least one custom barrel maker won't chamber Encores for Weatherby cartridges but I believe SSK Industries and Match Grade Machine will.

If you e-mail J. D. Jones at SSK Industries, he'll probably get back to you promptly with the answer; at least he always has for me.

melbaLT4 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 30, 2008, 08:27:21 AM »

Well SSK will cut a bbl for the .257 but i would have to hand load them way down, absolutely no factory ammunition to be used here, so I will end up with a super custom .25-06. Do I guess I am off to look at a .25-06 or something that will move a .25 gr bullet about 3800fps, any other Ideas are sure welcome and thanks Grumulkin for the lead.

yooper77 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 30, 2008, 08:40:07 AM »

Don't get caught up in a big speed hype, you don't need speed to kill antelope you need accuracy.

What are you looking for that the 257 Weatherby cartridge will give you, that the 25-06 Remington won't?

120 grain bullet out of a 24" 25-06 Remington barrel with max loads if its safe in your barrel can deliver 3000 FPS, more if its a 26" barrel, only if its also accurate.

I would suggest to buy a 270 Winchester Encore barrel and use factory ammo with 130 grain bullets. Plenty of power, accuracy, speed, good factory ammo prices, variety and availability and deadly for any big game up to Elk with the right bullet and of course shot placement.

257 Weatherby Magnum factory ammo prices are insane and very hard to find at times!

What happens with a custom Weatherby chamber is sometimes lacks the freeboring found in Weatherby firearms, so if you fire factory ammo this will raise pressure to an unsafe level. That's why you need to reload for them.

yooper77

melbaLT4 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 30, 2008, 10:08:00 AM »

No real need for speed here, but it sure was fun. I guess I got caught up in the uniqueness of the cartage

The .25-06 was the first choice, the point blank range is really what I am looking for, and its around 290yrds.

The .270 is nice but i was thinking it was too close to the .30-06 that I already own.

skb2706 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 31, 2008, 03:59:51 AM »

A good forum friend of mine shoots a 25-06 AI which will give you every bit of the speed without being belted and much easier to obtain brass. Probably the fastest .25 cal round you could put together in an Encore if speed is your goal.

Lone Star · « **Reply #6 on:** October 31, 2008, 01:02:40 PM »

It is a common misconception that a .25-06 AI or a .280AI can equal their respective caliber magnum cartridge velocities. The fact is that if they do, it is because they are operating at well over SAAMI pressures. There is no magic in them, all they do is increase the case capacity a few percent. There is no substitute for case capacity in the pursuit of velocity - except higher pressure. It can be no other way unless the shooter can defy the laws of physics.

Not that there is a single thing wrong with the .25-06AI, it is a very fine cartridge. But it is not a .257 Weatherby - which is fine because not everyone needs or wants a .257 Weatherby.

.

GUNBIDDER 208 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 31, 2008, 02:18:01 PM »

I just went through your same situation. Had a 2506 with a 24 inch barrel great shooter and wanted more fps velocity. I ended up buying a 270 winchester barrel Prohunter 28 inches long. I just finished range testing and at 100 yards developed 1 hole groups. I shoot the 150 grain bullets. Those prohunters really shoot. Of course it takes some time to find the right powder combination But I am sure the guys here as well as myself can get you their.

If you don't get the 270 get the 2506 but get the 28 inch barrel you get a longer barrel that will more completly burn the slower burning powders . This will give you greater velocity and greater accuracy.

Living in a free country gives an individual the freedom of choice. Choose wisely it is your money.

Best of Luck

melbaLT4 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 03, 2008, 03:29:30 AM »

This question brought up a good question in my mind... What are the pressure ratings for the encore?

yooper77 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 03, 2008, 04:10:56 AM »

The 25-06 Remington and 270 Winchester don't need barrels over 24" to completely burn slow powder, they do achieve more velocity from long barrels but that's all.

My 270 Winchester gives about 2800 FPS with 150 grain bullets using IMR-4831 out of the 22 inch barrel, no unburnt powder left behind and superb accuracy. The maximum for either cartridge I would suggest in a Encore is 26" only because there is no action and the overall length is shorter then most bolt rifles. Unfortunately the Encore Pro Hunter only offers 28 inch rifle barrels, kind of funny and useless for some cartridges, but cutting them down into a useable size is always an option.

The information below is from the SSK Industries website. These are people to trust, they know what they are doing.

I know the 454 Casull is safe in the Encore and its SAAMI maximum average pressure was set at 65,000 psi.

yooper77

http://www.sskindustries.com/encore.htm

I feel that all cartridges of the casehead size and pressure range of the .300 Winchester Magnum can safely be chambered in the Thompson/Center and SSK barrels for the Encore.

Many larger cartridges that develop lower pressures than those in the pressure range of the .300 Win Mag may also be chambered in the Encore. If the cartridges are larger in diameter then the 300 Mag, pressures must be reduced in relation to cartridge diameter. Also, many of the larger diameter cartridge cases are not capable of handling the pressures generated by the Win Mag. SSK has a good idea of what is suitable for the ENCORE and also what isn't. We have tested it with a large variety of calibers. Remember, this is a break open action design--not a large, heavy bolt action firearm.

Bugflipper · « **Reply #10 on:** November 03, 2008, 11:43:12 AM »

The 25 Gibbs uses 30/06 cases. It doesn't suffer from the freebore that the weatherby has to use for the high pressure. Velocity is about 3700 for 100 gr,3400 for 117 gr. and 3250 129 gr. I got a 25/06 re-chambered for it by bullberry. They call it a 250 Gibbs and sale the dies as well. It's about equal to the weatherby and 100 fps or so better than the 25/06 improved.

Graybeard · « **Reply #11 on:** November 03, 2008, 12:58:15 PM »

NOTHING on the '06 case can equal the .257 Whby at equal pressures. Just too much difference in case capacity.

Lone Star · « **Reply #12 on:** November 03, 2008, 03:42:46 PM »

Quote

The 25 Gibbs uses 30/06 cases. It doesn't suffer from the freebore that the weatherby has to use for the high pressure. Velocity is about 3700 for 100 gr,3400 for 117 gr. and 3250 129 gr...

Rocky's .25 has been around for over fifty years and has always been loaded to far over normal factory pressures. Rocky's loading recommendations once said to load until the primer pockets got loose, then back off a few grains(!). To my knowledge no one has ever pressure-tested those loads, but a lot of BS has been written about them. The .250 Gibbs has more case capacity than the .25-06AI so it would give slightly higher velocities if loaded to the same pressure. That is the catch - the only ones who know the actual pressures are the loading manual folks who publish the loading data for the AI cases. Pressure-tested data for any of these cartridges never equals the speed of the .257 Weatherby. I say this not because I'm a Weatherby fan, but because it is fact. BTW load data for the 250 in Ackley's book gives just 3525 fps for the 100-grain bullet.

The Weatherby cartridges do not HAVE to use the freebore, it was just another gimick that Roy used when designing his cartridges - just like the double venturi shoulder. Later in life Roy admitted that the latter served no real purpose, but it did set Weatherby cartridges apart from the crowd. One of my .257 Weatherbys was built without the freebore, and the rifle shoots fine at almost the same velocity as my factory chambered rifle. I do have to use 4-8 grains less powder for a max charge though. BTW the max pressure for the .257 Weatherby is almost identical to that for the factory .25-06 (53,500cup vs 53,000cup).

.

yooper77 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 04, 2008, 04:10:17 AM »

Quote from: Lone Star on November 03, 2008, 03:42:46 PM

The Weatherby cartridges do not HAVE to use the freebore, it was just another gimick that Roy used when designing his cartridges - just like the double venturi shoulder. Later in life Roy admitted that the latter served no real purpose, but it did set Weatherby cartridges apart from the crowd. One of my .257 Weatherbys was built without the freebore, and the rifle shoots fine at almost the same velocity as my factory chambered rifle. I do have to use 4-8 grains less powder for a max charge though. BTW the max pressure for the .257 Weatherby is almost identical to that for the factory .25-06 (53,500cup vs 53,000cup). .

Thats why is calls for reloads only, so can you safely use Weatherby factory ammunition in your non-freebore 257 Weatherby rifle?

The reason I ask is you said you need to reduce your max loads by 4-8 grains, isn't this why the freebore was established?

I heard Roy Weatherby first made his shoulder design was so shadetree gunsmiths couldn't reproduce the same cartridge on their own at the time.

yooper77

Lone Star · « **Reply #14 on:** November 04, 2008, 02:57:24 PM »

Roy copied his case shoulder from the Powell Miller Venturi Freebore (also known as the PMVF) which became commercial in 1944. In 1945 the name was changed to the Controlled Cumbustion Chamberage (CCC) design. Weatherby owned a rifle in .270 PMVF and wrote about it in the April 1945 issue of American Rifleman. He convinced the maker to use a "double radius" and the Weatherby design was born. Some reporters claim it was to reduce the chance of copies, others that Roy stubbornly believed it was superior to conventional shapes. He's gone now, so no chance to find out the truth - if he'd even have remembered.

The main function of a freebore is to allow more powder to be burned at the same pressure - but any velocity gain is very small. Riflemen who own heavily-used varmint rifles know that with use the throat advances up the bore, an "accidental freebore" if you will. These shooters have to increase their powder charges just to maintain velocity - but they don't get higher velocities when they do it. My non-freebored rifle is kinda like a new factory .220 Swift, while the freebored one is like a .220 Swift with 4000 rounds through it. Because some shooters think that burning more powder means more killing power, the freebore became a selling point. Remember that consumers were less sophisticated 60 years ago, and hype went further then. Roy was in the business to sell rifles against the big makers, and he had to set himself apart somehow. He seems to have succeeded.

I cannot use factory ammo safely in my non-factory rifle. I have to reduce listed 'factory' maximum loads by 4-8 grains - that's how much powder the freebored chamber "wastes".

.

yooper77 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 04, 2008, 03:30:55 PM »

Roy died a smart rich man as no one was able to reproduce what he was able to market as a success.

Just as I suspected, you cannot use Weatherby factory ammo safely in your rifle.

Thank you,
yooper77

plstrns · « **Reply #16 on:** November 05, 2008, 01:34:46 PM »

Why is the .257 a big deal to chamber in a Encore? I've got a factory .264 Win Mag barrel, aren't they really close? IMHO the 264 will do everything a .257 does, only better if rolling your own. Nothing wrong with a .257, I really like my No.1 in 25-06 other than it's weight.

yooper77 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 06, 2008, 03:49:06 AM »

The big deal is you can't safely use Weatherby factory ammo for a custom Weatherby chamber that lacks the freeboring.
-The ammo would have to be handloaded in order to safety use it.

yooper77

Lone Star · « **Reply #18 on:** November 06, 2008, 11:42:29 AM »

In reality, virtually all .257 Weatherby Magnum chambers are SAAMI standard which has the freebore. Only a very few custom gunsmiths have reamers without the freebore. This whole idea is really a fantasy for 99% of .257 shooters.

.

nomosendero · « **Reply #19 on:** November 06, 2008, 04:24:27 PM »

The 25-06 is great for Antelope, we have used the round to take about a dozen head & was never lacking.
With a 26" tube & quality, safe but potent reloads for both, you will be looking at a 200-225 FPS diff. in the 2 rounds. With factory ammo however, the spread can & often will be more because the Wea. ammo often is pretty hot & alot of 25-06 is mild.

Concerning the 25-06AI, it does not equal the 257 Weatherby, like I said with 26" tubes the 25-06 & 257 Wea. have about a 200FPS spread with comparable pressure loads & the 25-06 AI gains about 100-125FPS in my experience. So, no it does not equal, but the 100 or in some cases 125FPS did not give me anything, so I went with the Ackley. But I am a dedicated reloader, most people don't need to go there.

Bottom line is for 400 yard shooting or somewhat more for that matter the 25-06 will not be lacking for these animals.

melbaLT4 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 09, 2008, 04:07:17 PM »

Thanks for all the great input, seems like I opened up a can of worms on that one. The .25-06 seems like a winner for my purposes and on a recent trip to the Sportsman's Warehouse there were none to be had, so I am off to the internet to try to locate one, wish me luck.

yooper77 · « **Reply #21 on:** November 09, 2008, 05:57:24 PM »

You didn't open up a can of worms, this is the very place for these discussions.

I know you are looking for a T/C Encore 25-06 Remington barrel, but also consider the 270 Winchester, since factory ammo is easy to find and any 130 grain bullet from a 270 Winchester is perfect for Antelope.

yooper77