Author Topic: Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt ?  (Read 4267 times)

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Offline David L

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt ?
« on: August 10, 2003, 04:17:34 AM »
I was looking into cylinder conversions, from .44 percussion to .45 LC Colt. That’s right, I’m not stupid enough to buy without consulting (this time)…Done that with the hog-leg and learned me lesson.

OK,  I’m getting the Remington .44 1858 reproduction model made by Pietta, case hardened steel frame.

Look these over if y’all would and give me some feedback. The Kirst Konverter will hold 5 shells, by contrast the R & D Converter will hold 6. BUT, Kirst explains that in order to seat 6 .45 LC Colt shells the cylinder must be bored at an angle because there is just not enough room to seat 6 .45 LC Colt shells side by side and still bore it straight-on, so Kirst bores there cylinders straight and uses the 6th for an empty chamber rest (the safest method for storing loaded arms). No angle for the bullet to jump leaves me leaning towards the Kirst. Any opinions and or observations are welcome. (I hope that made sense)

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Kirst Konverter Home Page for those that wanna look at this critter:

http://www.kirstkonverter.com/safety.html

Kirst has a “Flash” animation of switching from percussion to .45 LC Colt, switching cylinders only takes 7 seconds.

http://www.kirstkonverter.com/demo.html

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R & D at Taylor Firearms

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/r&d.html

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The Kirst also offers many accessories like a nifty Ejection Rod assembly that looks purty simple to install but I’ll prolly go with 2 extra cylinders and the 7 second reload, if I was on stilts I’d feel like ole Clint in Pale Rider…*jk*

I wish my hog leg would get here so I can fondle it! With statements like that you know I’m over 40...ish

Thanks for all your input….

David L

Offline The Shrink

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2003, 06:19:45 AM »
David

Like you I have no experience with either one.  Having said that, and given little price differential, I will always go with the more thoughtful engineering.  For me it would be the Krist.
Wayne the Shrink

There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

Offline Flint

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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2003, 06:44:54 AM »
I have both,, but my Kirst is in the Colt 36 types and the R&D is in the Remingtons.  I would get a Kirst to try in the Remington, except that all my Remingtons are already converted, and $250 is a lot of money for a comparison test.  The Kirst has two versions, the one has an ejection port, and an available ($100) ejector rod kit.  If you make this conversion, you have manufactured a gun according to the ATF, so it can never be sold. (unless the buyer swears he made the conversion). Also, the ported Kirst is as slow to load and unload as a Colt SAA, one at a time, but you can, with spare cylinders swap them out ala Eastwood, 7 seconds (?) so it's good for both ways.   You also sometimes have fired cases back out as you cock the gun and stop the works, they really need a gate in the port.  The unported Kirst loads by removing the cylinder, like the R&D. The Kirst has 1 firing pin, the R&D has 6.

 The R&D "angled" chambers are not in the least a problem, the angle is so small and the semi-round nosed 45 bullet turns the very slight corner and is as accurate in my experience, as a Kirst, on the target.  

The R&D if used in the Colt type requires disassembling the gun to load/unload, so the Kirst makes much more sense in the Colt than the R&D does, even though you have to cut the port in the frame.  Note, a friend has 2 Pietta Colt Navies with Kirst, and both guns suffer backing out fired cases and stoppage, I have two as well and neither one backs out (Uberti's but that shouldn't make a difference).  His chambers are smoother, and that may be the problem.  We are talking about making a gate, and I've already designed it, except that of the 4 units, there are two different sets of dimensions for the port, so they'll have to be individually fitted..

I like them both, and the quality is equivalent, though I prefer the R&D firing pin retained by a threaded bushing to the Kirst, which is staked in and will be harder to repair if it ever needs it.
Flint, SASS 976, NRA Life

Offline Cactus Cris

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2003, 07:41:13 AM »
I got 3 44 and 2 38  R&D cylinders.  All work great.  You might want to get extra main springs for the Remmi's.  I got 6 from Dixie and cut them down so the hammer pull is not as strong.  Don't need the truck leafspring for the R&D's.   Keep the original for C&B use.  They are strong for a reason.    Keeping them running during a match is simple- keep a damp rag in vest pocket & wipe the face off while the cylinder is out to unload.  Make a plunger from a piece of wood dowel to use as an extractor.  Put a piece of antler on the end of mine with a leather thong to hang on belt.  My 45c loads are down loaded with no fillers using wonder wads.  No need in stressing the pistol by using elephant killers.
  All 5 shoot POA and are a hoot to shoot. :-D
Cactus Cris  SASS 2790  Darkside Posse, Cart maker, Corral Keeper, Gpa of 6

Offline Dakota Confederate

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2003, 03:15:06 AM »
Well, I've had a Kirst ported conversion in a Uberti Army for a while now and really love it.  It never fails to turn heads at any shoot I go to.  Just a few days ago, I got an R&D cylinder for a Pietta Army but the only rounds I've fired through it so far have been a few rounds to see how well it handles.  So far no problems here either but it's way too soon to say for sure which is the better cylinder in the accuracy department.  I do think that the R&D is a bit more period correct than the Kirst but the Kirst isn't all that far off either so it may be in what you like that will make up your mind here.  Function I guess I would have to give the nod to Kirst.  Not that either of them had any problems with timing or function but with the Kirst empty cases will drop right out where the R&D doesn't want to let them go quite so easily.  I just use the loading lever to poke them out so it's not really a major problem, it's just not as nice as Kirst.  Having both and future plans to get a Remington Navy in .36 and convert it over to a .38 Special, I think I'll be going with another Kirst ported conversion for that project.  The factors that lead me to that decision is that the Kirst just looks better IMHO with the ejector rods and ported recoil shields and the straight through drilling of their cylinders (though I'm not sure this is a factor on their .38 Special versions) rather than a chamber being drilled off center.  Bottom line it's a personal thing but for my tastes, I'll stick wtih Kirst.

Offline David L

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2003, 03:41:52 AM »
Ya know, I was looking at the Kirst and I'm thinking it "might" be possible to drill-in my own set screw. Flint, from where your sitting, looking at the Kirst, do you think this would be possible? OR am I perhaps better-off buying the R&D, the bullets backing out on the Kirst will not be as reliable but accuracy.....Decisions decisions.......

IF the set-screw is not possible then I'll go with the R&D as I need it to fire....reliably....

Thanks for all your input folks I appreiciate it

David L

First your money then your cloths.....IT never stops!!!

Offline David L

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2003, 03:47:24 AM »
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, Kirst is a straight on drill for the cylinders....The more I say that the more I want the Kirst....

*LOL**...Plenty of time to mull it over --- I'll keep y'all posted

Sorry for the double post, I just wanna make the right decision for me, ya know...

David L

Offline Dakota Confederate

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2003, 05:24:49 AM »
Cartridges backing out of my ported Kirst has never been a problem.  The trick is that when you cut the loading port in the back of the conversion cylinder's recoil shield, bevel off the lower edge of the front of the loading port.  I did then and when the revolver is cocked, the rounds do back out of the chamber a little bit as they pass the port but as long as I don't cock it super-duper slow, just cocking it at a normal speed instead, they start to drop back out, hit the bevel and are pressed back into the chamber again.  Now this is with live rounds and with fired cases, I can cock it super-duper slow and they will tend to stay in there anyways.  It's all in the beveled edge that makes all the difference.

Offline Flint

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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2003, 05:43:45 AM »
The problem my friend has with backing out is with 38 Special (HBWC).  There may not be enough pressure to grip the chamber walls with the fired brass at appropriate powder pressures.  The 45 Colt might be better by nature, unless the load is too light.

David, not sure of what you want to do with a set screw... describe it better.

The 38 caliber R&D is not angled, as there is no rim interference as there is with 45 Colt.  The Kirst will work either ported or unported, they sell it both ways, your choice of loading method.  The ported one can still be loaded by removing the cylinder, which is actually faster.  It is also easier to see which chambers are loaded with a Kirst.

If I get a Remington Kirst, I most likely will get a 36 Rem to put it in, as I like the 38 Wadcutter load, and I've been using it in the Colts.
Flint, SASS 976, NRA Life

Offline David L

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2003, 09:55:23 AM »
OK Flint, on the Kirst .45 LC colt cylinder. I haven't looked at it or held one in my hand yet but could it be possible to just drill and tap my own set screw. Put cylinder and ring into a drill press and drill a small hole through each of them with a slightly larger hole in the ring and the hole tapped in the cylinder I should be able to countersink a set screw in the ring which would hold both pieces together. Carrying an allen wrench and doing it at the range would be time consuming tho.

I look at that idea the I want to dismiss it, it sounds culbersome now and just time consuming. (For range shooting that is)

Since I do not have plans on porting the frame for the ejector rod then the backing out of the bullets should not be a problem. I plan on 2 extra cylinders. That gives me a full 3 cylinders worth of blasting before I hafta reload. I'll prolly go with Kirst, the more and more I look at 'em the more the Kirst screams....ME!

Thanks for all the excellant feedback, it really help me out!

David L

Offline bfoster

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2003, 10:27:46 AM »
Just a note: Colt themselves angled the chambers of SAA's in chambered in 476 Eley for this reason (the situation is just like using the M1909 cartridge- this has a bigger rim than a 45 Colt- you can load 3 M1909's in a SAA, but 6 in a New Service due to the larger cylinder of the "new model" New Service.

I've found the SAA chambered in 476 to be fully as accurate as a Webley WG where the chambers are bored "straight". Both revolvers with suitable loads shoot well. IMO this is more a theoretical problem than a real world issue. Let's face it, there is more angularity induced to a bullet as it enters the forcing cone if the cylinder is say 0.003" out of perfect time (a very usual condition- it won't even show up in a timing check with an ordinary range rod) than with a slightly angle bored cylinder. You either have a leading problem or you don't, and the Colt .476 is no more subject to this than other SAA's.

Bob

Offline Flint

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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2003, 08:10:18 PM »
David, if I understand what you are proposing, it means screwing the backplate to the cylinder to carry the unit assembled. (?)  That would only work with the R&D, as it has 6 firing pins in a backplate that rotates with the cylinder.  The Kirst backplate has one firing pin and does not rotate.  The Kirst cylinder has the rachet for the hand to rotate, the R&D backplate has the rachet.  If you do not intend to port the gun, get the unported backplate version of the Kirst.
Flint, SASS 976, NRA Life

Offline David L

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2003, 01:29:11 PM »
Flint, that's exactly what I was proposing, but now that the action of the kirst has been explained I know, like you said it will not work. Took 2 or 3 times explaining it to me but I (finally) got it....*L*

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The angle jump in the R & D would make little difference I think, but just the thought of it, ya know. I think I'll prolly go with the Kirst. I honestly can't see my gun hammer sitting on a live cartridge, on half cock or not, I just load 5 anyway. I've already convinced myself Kirst is it.....

At 129 bucks for an extra cylinder that's not real hard to come-up with say times 2....3 full ones for Blasting. GeeZus, I want 2 black powder extras too...........After I get the black powder cylinders it will almost solidify and justify the purchase of the Kirst.....(trying to work out the kitchen pass) YES hunny, I need that too....*L*

Good feedback on that one ---

David L

Offline Good time Charlie

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2003, 10:05:48 AM »
I have a ruger Old Army and got the R&D I fired it this morning. It worked great.Loading with the old army is a pain,but your remington should be a lot easer. I have a 1858 remington but it has a brass fame and you are not to use the converter in them.

Offline David L

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2003, 10:33:40 AM »
Ya know, I'll never buy a Pietta again. That is one sorry gun man. The next gun I get will prolly be an Umberti in the 1858 and if that can't shoot then I WILL send it back. I'm not EVER going thru what I done with that trashy Pietta..NEVER.......

I like BP but if this is the guns we hafta use then forget it man!!!! My uncle said they were purty trashy guns, workmanship is just pure trash....Me thinks a Ruger with a custom fit is in order here.

David L

Forget Pietta, its TRASH!!! At least mine was,,,,,,,

Offline Good time Charlie

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2003, 04:47:38 PM »
I don't know about your uncle , but I have a ruger and a petta The action and everything on the petta is much tighter than the ruger. This means closer tolerances . Having been a machinest I may put too much stock in this.

Offline El Confederado

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2003, 07:58:29 PM »
David L,
Man I don't know where y'all got your pistol or whatever, but I have been shootin Pietta's for years and I don't have a single bitch.Is it as good as my Ubertti's , no, but almost. I think y'all got took on your Pietta. Sorry pard, can't back ya on this one.
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Offline Ed Harris

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Kirst Converter for Pietta-Remington .45 ACP
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2003, 05:31:25 AM »
I have a Kirst Konverter for my Pietta Remington in .45 ACP.  While the caliber is a bit untraditional, if you want to use light loads, the smaller case capacity of the .45 ACP is alot easier to work with and get good results.  

This is a 6-shot converter, rather than 5, if that appeals to you.  I use the RCBS 45-230CM cowboy FN bullet with 4.5 grs. of Bullseye for about 740 f.p.s.   I also get good results using either the same charge of BE or 16 grs. of 3F black with .457" roundballs cast for my Ruger Old Army using an Ox Yoke Originals wad under the ball, seating so that the radius of the ball is tangent with the case mouth and crimping separately with the Lee Factory Crimp die, which sizes the ball inside the case.  Very easy to load and pleasant to shoot.  

I waiting to get a .45 ACP Konverter for my Ruger Old Army as well and think that makes a much better arrangement than fighting the cavernous case capacity of the .45 Colt for light loads.
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Offline osceola

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Kirst Konverter OR R&D for .45 LC Colt
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2003, 06:51:49 AM »
In regards to the cavernous case size of the 45 long colt.  I overcame that with 1/2" backer rod(very cheap compared to wonder wads) I purchased at Home Depot.  It's an extruded insullation type foam used in concrete joints and a multitude of other uses and can be bought in bulk through commercial concerns.  Much easier and quicker than using polyester stuffing.  Anyway, I set up a jig, ie. a #6 shell holder and just snip them off with scissors.  I leave a station empty on my progressive and when the shell gets there I use a dowel rod to push on into the case.  Using 5.5 grains of Universal, a stuffer and 250 gr lead pill it's about 800 fps.  This keeps the powder positioned for thorough and clean ignition.  

**If you do this, you are responsible for any outcome.**  

I have done this on 1,000's of rounds but be darn sure to back your favorite load way down then work it up over a chronograph keeping well in mind not only the strength of the cartridge but that of the cylinder as well.
Be Safe!