Author Topic: Guns of the Old West article on 45-70 gallery loads (Read 1725 times)

kevinsmith5 · « **on:** November 04, 2008, 10:02:42 AM »

In the fall issue of Guns of the Old West there is an interesting article on 45-70 gallery loads. they describe seating a round ball all the way down into the cartridge to seat it on a 15 grain BP load. Is that what I should be doing with my collar buttons?

Also the test rifle they used was a Handi that they had replaced the trigger guard with a Kentucky rifle trigger guard. Looks very good but few details were given on how they fitted it other than to say they cut the original one off.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** November 04, 2008, 10:35:45 AM »

I wouldn't recommend trying that with the collar button, if it turns sideways in the case on the way out, it could lodge in the barrel making an obstruction. A roundball couldn't do that.

That article about using a trigger guard from a Hawken or one of the similar style guards was posted a couple months back, I did a search at TOTW and Dixie and posted links to several that would be likely candidates, some in silver as well as brass, but no one ever followed up on it. I tried the search for the thread but didn't find it. Sounded like a good idea to me tho.

Tim

coyotejoe · « **Reply #2 on:** November 04, 2008, 11:37:57 AM »

Black and smokeless powders have little in common. With BP there must be no airspace between powder and bullet, although with only 15 grains there would likely be no danger, just very dirty and inconsistent. So for black, one must either seat the bullet onto the powder with some slight compression or fill the case with fiber wads to accomplish the same thing. I think that seating the ball very deep into the case would swage down the sides to a considerable degree due to the case thickness taper.
With smokeless, the very light charges of 5 grains or so get lost in the huge 45/70 case. Current thinking seems to be against fillers but I've always put a tuft of poly or cotton fiber atop those tiny charges and it greatly improves consistency with Bullseye, Red Dot and Unique. I suppose Trail Boss might be a better way to go but I've never tried it. I never got really great accuracy with a .457" ball but actually had better results from .454" pistol bullets, even though they are undersize they shot into an inch at 25 yards.

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 04, 2008, 12:48:18 PM »

I'm currently shooting the collarbuttons with 50 gr pyrodex with yellow cornmeal on top. Haven't chronographed due to worries about what the cornmeal might do to the chronograph. Accuracy ain't great, but I think velocity is still higher than I want.

greg916 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 04, 2008, 12:52:26 PM »

I shoot .457 round balls out of my 45/70. accurate enough at 25 yards and lots of fun!

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #5 on:** November 04, 2008, 01:25:03 PM »

The 45-70 case is tapered ever so slightly and a round ball would be loose in it. I wonder if they were using a special case that is not tapered on the inside. As the round ball moves around in the case wouldn't powder fall out? or did they talk about crimping the case at the base? I thought you used flash paper as a filler on light loads to keep the powder up against the primer.
The flash paper also works well with wax bullets out of the 45 colt. Acts like a tracer for a couple feet.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** November 04, 2008, 01:39:48 PM »

Just use an appropriately sized sabot!!

Tim

http://www.mikeswillowlake.com/45-70_fun.htm

http://www.mmpsabots.com/

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** November 04, 2008, 02:15:59 PM »

Nevermind the sabot idea unless you can find em in .458" for .430"-.440" round balls, I thought MMP made em, but after looking, I only see .452" sabots. Now maybe if you could put a .45cal gas check on the back of a .452 sabot.....hmmmm

How bout running some .490 round balls thru a .459" sizer, then load em in the 45-70 case?

Tim

LONGTOM · « **Reply #8 on:** November 04, 2008, 02:39:46 PM »

On the subject of Black Powder or it's substitutes.

We have all heard and been taught that you never leave an air space between the bullet and the powder, but in fact you really do leave one when you load the pellets along with a concave base sabot or bullet.
Also you leave one when you load the pellets that have the hole in the middle.
The same is true if you use PIONEER POWDER in the STICK form.
There is also an air space all around the pellets when loaded in say a 45-70 case.
Can someone explain why this doesn't cause a problem?

LONGTOM

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #9 on:** November 05, 2008, 05:43:25 AM »

I thought the problem was more of an ignition problem where the primer may not get to the powder. If you were to put 15 grains of powder in a 45-70 case and aim slightly down the powder would be up against the bullet and the primer will go off and not reach the powder causing the bullet to squib with live powder. Tha't why with small powder loads I use the flash paper to keep small amounts of powder in large cases like 45 colt and 44 mag with small powder charges. Like when I use Green dot instead of Blue dot for plinking ammo. The green dot charge is about 2/3 the grains of the Blue to get the 180 grain bullets to 1000 FPS. i have heard of others using cotton balls and the fiber wads from cap and ball. When I found 2 X2 squares of flash paper I just roll it up into a ball and press it on top of the powder and seat the bullet.

Blackhawker · « **Reply #10 on:** November 05, 2008, 09:36:16 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on November 04, 2008, 10:35:45 AM

I wouldn't recommend trying that with the collar button, if it turns sideways in the case on the way out, it could lodge in the barrel making an obstruction. A roundball couldn't do that.

That article about using a trigger guard from a Hawken or one of the similar style guards was posted a couple months back, I did a search at TOTW and Dixie and posted links to several that would be likely candidates, some in silver as well as brass, but no one ever followed up on it. I tried the search for the thread but didn't find it. Sounded like a good idea to me tho.

Tim

Tim,
If you find the threads for the trigger guards, could you please post the links. I might be interested.

Thanks!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** November 05, 2008, 10:31:50 AM »

I search for brass instead of trigger guard and found it!!

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,150611.msg1098631100.html#msg1098631100

ranger 76 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 05, 2008, 11:41:51 AM »

Hi kevinsmith5
I have shot 457 round balls on top of 12gains of 3f powder in my 45-70 Ruger #1
I take 457 balls roll them in lee liquid alox let dry prime with cci large rifle primer
put 12gr of 3f in case seat ball on top of powder with short starter or dowel. these
shells should be marked as they don't look loaded. I find these will shoot in a inch at
25 yards out of my Ruger and will penetrate 3/8 plywood but forget 50 yards. Lots of fun
to shoot should clean about every 5 shots hope. Thanks Lorne

coyotejoe · « **Reply #13 on:** November 05, 2008, 01:13:44 PM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on November 04, 2008, 01:25:03 PM

The 45-70 case is tapered ever so slightly and a round ball would be loose in it. I wonder if they were using a special case that is not tapered on the inside. As the round ball moves around in the case wouldn't powder fall out? or did they talk about crimping the case at the base? I thought you used flash paper as a filler on light loads to keep the powder up against the primer.
The flash paper also works well with wax bullets out of the 45 colt. Acts like a tracer for a couple feet.

With modern solid head brass the case walls taper thicker toward the bottom. A .457" ball is a very tight fit in a sized case and in fact the mouth must be flared to get a ball started. The farther down you press the ball the tighter it becomes due to the thicker case walls. If you start with a fired, re-primed but unsized case, you can probably just push the ball down until it tightens up and call it good.

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 05, 2008, 02:27:51 PM »

I bought the magazine and can tell you they crimp the case after seating the ball all the way down on the powder.

They also specify the triggerguard came from Dixie Gun Works. What I'm trying to figure out is whether they had to tap the reciever to attach the trigger guard or have attached it to the original plastic guard.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** November 05, 2008, 02:45:23 PM »

D&Ting the frame in front of and behind the factory trigger guard should work fine with the right trigger guard, this brass guard should work well, it has nice flat fore and aft mounting surfaces.

Tim

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 05, 2008, 02:52:38 PM »

Probably should have mentioned they do specify it is a Kentucky rifle trigger guard.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** November 05, 2008, 02:57:35 PM »

Take your pick, but I'll stick with the TOTW parts, almost ordered the brass and silver today, but I have a bunch steel H&R trigger guards to work with for now.

Tim

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=kentuck+triggerguard&x=5&y=6

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 05, 2008, 03:44:24 PM »

Pic in the mag looks like this one.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=6856&osCsid=37bd9023c4416a6fdac76c3f750edd7f

Would of had to have cut away some of it and drilled for screws.

BBF · « **Reply #19 on:** November 06, 2008, 05:51:37 AM »

Re Primer fire not reaching powder to ignite.
Dunno about that !! I have just fired off some suspect primers loaded into 30-06 brass( no powder or bullet) in a 22" barrel. When fired, a flame shot right out of the muzzle!!

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 06, 2008, 03:07:43 PM »

Can the "silvers" be case hardened?

In looking at period arms I've noticed that the trigger guards are pretty much all case hardened, not brass or plain steel.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** November 06, 2008, 05:13:05 PM »

Not that I'm aware of, color case hardening is a process for ferrous metal. Traditional 17-18th century trigger guards of brass were very common, iron was used too, silver most likely the least common.

Tim

http://www.restoration-gunsmith.com/ArtCCase.html

http://www.runniron.com/finishes/color_case.html

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #22 on:** November 07, 2008, 12:18:24 AM »

I'm mostly thinking of high walls and sharps antiques. (and the one picture of a original W & H tip rifle I have ever been able to find).

I have seen case hardening compuond for sale at Dixie and Midsouth, a small container is like $10. I can bake it in the school I work at's kiln.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #23 on:** November 07, 2008, 05:20:38 AM »

In the Sharps and Winchesters the trigger guard was also the operating lever and so was made of steel, which can be blued or case hardened. Iron or steel can be case hardened with Casenit or other carbon bearing compounds or by packing in bone meal but that will not produce the "case colors" you have in mind, the surface will be hardened but a flat grey color. I have gotten some pretty nice "case looking" colors by simply playing a torch over the surface and watching the colors change. That is not a durable color but neither is real color case very durable. Look at well maintained older guns and you will see that the case colors have faded to grey while the blued barrels may still look near new.