1894 C 357 question

[Lost Oki]

May not be the right forum but there are more 1894C folks on this one.
Does anyone reload the 357 using H110 or Winchester 296?
I have exceeded the max listed in three manuals by (highest max was 17.5gr with 158 Hornady HP)
and still no signs of high pressure.
Shooting at 50 yrds with reasonable groups.

[dpe.ahoy]

I used to use H-110, but have switched to LilGun.  With that weight bullet, LilGun seems to be the perfect match.  I pulled a loadout of Handloader magazine, 19.0g of that powder.  Hodgdon stops lower than that, but the pressure is very low with their load.  I have used that load in 5 different 357 rifles and had no problems and very good results.  DP

[Autorim]

What bullet are you using? Cast or jacketed? Weight?

[Keith L]

I guess I don't know what you are after.  If you want the OK to continue exceeding loading manual maxes you are not likely to get it from here.  Pressure signs may not show up until something comes apart and someone is hurt.  My recommendation is to stay with published loads.

[Graybeard]

Some times it's kinda hard for me to remain nice in the face of gross stupidity. Tonight after finding out the voters in this nation have just turned it over to a muzlim I guess I have no more nice in me.

The first sign of excessive pressure you are likely to see might also be the last time you see anything. It will come as a blindly light and you'll feel the pain and if you still have both hands or at least one of them intact reach up and feel your face. That warm wet stuff is blood maybe it will stop flowing in time for the paramedics to save your life or maybe it won't. Maybe you'll luck out and still have some vision left in at least one eye but then maybe not.

If you are not smart enough to understand what MAX means then go for it big boy just don't come crying here when  you lose fingers, eyes or other body parts. We're not gonna have any sympathy to spare we'll have used it all up on ourselves as it's gonna be hell on earth under sharia law the voters voted for tonight.

[AtlLaw]

Some times it's kinda hard for me to remain nice in the face of gross stupidity. Tonight after finding out the voters in this nation have just turned it over to a muzlim I guess I have no more nice in me.

Sounds like you and I are in the same mood Bill... 

[gypsyman]

Lost Oki, Graybeard is exactly right. Do yourself a favor, and spend $100 or so, and buy a cheap chronograph. You'll find out, by overloading, your not gaining what you think. That extra grain or 2 of powder MIGHT, be getting you an extra 50 FPS of bullet speed, but alot of extra pressure. If you want more power in a lever gun, get a .44, .444. or .35Rem., or such.  gypsyman

[Lost Oki]

Geez guys....lighten up.....I didn't vote for the liar.....
Its extremely hard to determine max when one book lists max for a rifle at less than
the other book lists for a pistol.  Then you go to the manufacturer's web site (powder)
and its max is higher than what you are using, so you stop and ask
I was looking for exactly what I got from DP, constructive
feed back.  I might have phrased the post different..I am not looking for anyone to tell me its ok to
keep going....I am capable of making that decision and living with the consequences....

Just an FYI....I started reloading in 1971...I have always....repeat always looked for the edge at a very
controlled pace....I am not looking for velocity....I like to know how much 'room for error' I have on
every gun I reload for....And, just a little more.....I have loaded several grains under max with at least one rifle and
found that this was the MAX for that rifle.....again....lighten up, the election is over and Yes, there
are a lot of STUPID americans out there.....Thanks anyway

[Autorim]

Lost Oki,

You asked a simple question then stated that you experiment with over max loads. To answer you question - yes, I use 14.0 grains of W296 with the 158 grain Hornady in my 1894C .357. It is near max in most manuals and serves me well.

Perhaps Graybeard overreacted, but I will excuse that as post election depression. He did give you good advice and I totally agree. NO, I do not exceed recommended maximum loads. I have used and Oehler chrono for many years and I know what my loads produce.

I am usually not looking for max in any caliber and usually find that just under max is more accurate. If I want more power than the .357 produces, I move up to a near max or less load in the .44 mag or .45LC. If that doesn't work the 45-70 in a Ruger No. 1 takes care of everything else. Try that with a max load sometime if you like max.

[Keith L]

I don't think Bill over reacted.  I have seen a shotgun and a rifle come unglued because of some stupid reloading.  Loading past max loads is stupid reloading.  If it just hurt the people who did the bonehead job it would be one thing.  But sometimes it hurts innocent bystanders.  And there is little need for that.

[Mikey]

Lost Oki:  I have used 296 but at factory load levels, and it has performed well for me.  My preferred 357 load is for 12.4 gns of 296 under a 200 gn cast bullet for a factory velocity of 1330'/sec.  I use 200 gn swc slugs from Mt. Baldy or Colorado Cast Bullets. 

The max Winchester factory load using 296 for any 158 gn slug is 16.6 gns for jacketed bullets and 14.5 gns for cast bullets.  Jacketed loads run to 1600'/sec (listed) at 39.5K CUP and cast bullets loads run to 1560'/sec (listed) at 38k CUP.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Badnews Bob]

That little Marlin can't handle the hot loads it's big brothers can. Let someone else shoot it and watch the breech block, It moves backwards every time, It you load it to hot your pushing it that much more. I do believe there is a note in the manual about that and that it can be hard on brass also. I'll look if I can find my manual.

[dpe.ahoy]

With 158g Hornady XTP Hodgdon lists 16.7g of H110 @ 40,700 CUP.  LilGun is listed as 18.0g @ 25,800 CUP.  This is out of the Hodgdon Annual manual, 2008 edition for the 357 mag.  DP

[SharonAnne]

rifle loads WILL reach maximum with less powder than revolvers. Revolvers have vented barrels-the cylinder/barrel gap. Rifles are closed barrels. Also they have much longer barrels, giving the PROGRESSIVE powders much longer to develop pressure. So yes, rifle loads will use less powder than revolver loads. Anyone who had been loading since 1971 should know that all guns are laws unto themselves and just because a load is below max in one manual does not make it ok in another. The SMARTEST way to use loading manuals is to use the LOWEST max load as MAXIMUM since YOU do not know what pressure your gun is making. Pressure signs on brass are OVERPRESSURE signs. If they show up EVER, your load is too hot.

[Gohon]

I ran test using several powders including Lil'Gun, H-110, and 296 using Hornady 158 grain XTP and Remington 158 grain JSP.  In the end the best consistent accuracy I obtained at 50 yards was Lil'Gun for both bullets (18 grains behind the Hornady and 17 grains behind the Remington) with almost identical FPS for both bullets, 1940 and 1939 respectfully. My experience for deer sized game is that is really a little more than I need as it seems 1700-1800 fps with the 158 grain is about right for good performance out to 100-125 yards.   For some reason 296 shot simply lousy in my gun though H-110 wasn't to bad.  I did settle on H-110 (14.5 grains)for a Cast performance 180 grain LBT at 1520 FPS and 13.5 grains for the Hornady 180 grain XTP at 1439 FPS. Those are my hog loads and they will punch through with no problems.   Oddly enough the 158 grain lead SWCGC hard cast I make seem to work best with 2400.  Be nice if one powder did it all but that seems to never be the case with my guns.

Now for all those quick to jump all over Lost Oki, let me give you an example of what he is talking about and asking.  In the latest publication of "One Book/One Caliber" for the 357 magnum under the Hornady bullet section page 9 it shows the maximum load for a Hornady 158 grain HP/XTP as 15.5 grains of H-110 for 1700 fps.  Now turn to page 62 in the same book for the same bullet in the Hodgen powder section and it lists a max load of 16.7 grains of H-110 for 1754 fps.  Seems to me some of you would be better served to take your election frustration some place else.  Maybe like the political forum.......just a thought.

[Lloyd Smale]

oki there probably isnt a loader here that hasnt done exactly what you are doing sometime in his loading carreer. Most of us have learned (through bad experiences) that it isnt wize and although greaybeard has taken up the jump down your throat attitude that is usually reserved for me, he is just trying in his own sweet way to keep you from hurting yourself. If you find three different sources that quote three different max loads use the lightest of the three not the heaviest. You will not gain enough performance to notice anyway.

[bilmac]

Levers are weak guns, your reloading manuals reflect that. Even some revolvers can take more pressure than they can. Think of all those cuts and angles and weak places and that poor little breech block having to withstand more pressure than they were designed to. I kind of doubt you can blow one up using powder as slow as you are, but think about what you are doing to your rifle. How many rounds will you get before you have headspace or other problems. Destroy a nice gun to get a few more FPS and what will the FPS get you? With the blunt nose bullets you shoot in it ,maybe 10 or 20 yards of extra range. If you want high performance shoot a high performance gun, use your lever as it was intended.