Looking for a ML to shoot conical bullets

[NitroSteel]

I usually hang out at the cannon/mortar forums, so forgive me for my ignorance here.

I'm looking at going to Colorado next year for the ML elk season.  Rules are:  no scope, no sabots, no "pellitized" powder.

So, shooting conical bullets - I hear the Encore or Omega (WAS clearly first choice) is not the way to go.  I didn't realize this until coming to this site today - glad I decided to do a little more research.  I had an Encore picked out (on sale) and was going to drop the $$ today. 

I'm looking in the $450 range for the best muzzleloader for this purpose.  It would have been nice to have an Encore that could easily be changed to do anything, but it sounds like conicals are not good out of this gun in general.  On the other hand, one of my best friends shoots an Encore and has really good luck with conicals out of his gun.  Shooting 1.5 inch groups out to 100 yards with 80 grains of 777.  If I can be pretty sure to duplicate this, I'll buy the Encore in a heartbeat.

Please give me some head's up on which gun I should look at.  I've been reading a little bit about the Knight KRB shooting good with pretty much anything...  I'd rather shoot conicals because my friend has a mold and will give me all the bullets I can shoot (free is good), plus this is what is required in CO.

Any other suggestions on guns to look at?

Thank ya'll for your help.

Nitrosteel

[Swampman]

Go on the Green Mountain barrel website.  They have some super deals on the type of rifle you're looking for,

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

CVA Accura.  The KRB is set up for a scope and has a straight forward stock thats uncomfortable, especially when you have to slam your face into the stock and then pull the trigger.

[Busta]

If you want the best conical shooter, look at finding a White Rifles (1:24 twist) .504 caliber. I have Whites, Knights, and a NEF that will shoot the 460 grain No Excuses/Bullshop/White bullets very well. I however use the NEF Huntsman in Colorado, just because I like the way it carries, and it fits me to a "T". The main problem with the T/C's and conicals is the QLA's (false muzzle) have been found to not be concentric with the bore on several examples.

[sabotloader]

NitroSteel

Busta provided you a lot of good information - on point...

If you decide on the Accru - make sure you know the safety limitations of the CVA products in max powder loads, max weight of a sabotted bullet, and max weight of a conical...

The KRB might be a excellent gun.

But, if it were me I would suggest you look at the Knight Disc Extreme in 50 cal.  It will be the most versitile of guns, allowing you to reach any potential you want to.  It is the older design - bolt action type gun - guaranteed accuracy - shoot BP/subs or the new BH powder - shot sabots or conicals.

Just a very stong gun + water proof when you need it to be.

http://www.knightrifles.com/productdetail.aspx?id=DE706C

This is the suggested price  - I am sure you can find it on line for less $...  It will shoot the lights out with a .503/460 Grain Bull Shop conical.

http://bullshop.gunloads.com/contact.html

[Swampman]

I wouldn't waste any money on a CVA.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

I wouldn't waste any money on a CVA.

Swampman i'll warn you once to not start this argument again.

[NitroSteel]

A few more questions:

What about a Knight Revolution II?  There is not much information on the Knight website about the differences in their rifles.  Why would the Disk Extreme be better than the Revolution?

Also, the bullets my friend cast are R.E.A.L. (rifling engaged at loading).  How would these do in the T/C Encore Muzzleloader?  Are these hard to load in the Knight muzzloaders?

[redpep]

White Super 91 for sale in the classifieds, one of the best conical shooting guns out there.

[Swampman]

Are Hornady FPB bullets Colorado legal with the plastic tip removed?  If so, most any inline should work fine. 

[sabotloader]

Are Hornady FPB bullets Colorado legal with the plastic tip removed?  If so, most any inline should work fine. 

The CO rule is the projectile can not be longer than twice the diameter of the barrel, when you remove the tip it is slighly less than 1" long so it qualifies.... as does the Thor.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Nitro are you set on an inline? I was thinking you may have a lot more fun/satisfied with possibly a traditional sidelock with barrel that has the proper twist for todays conicals.  Lyman great plains hunter would be excellent choice but one thing, you will have to replace the rear sight as they are very poorly made. Or even a used tc renegade/hawken with an GM 1:28 twist.

[NitroSteel]

Yes, I definetly will get an inline.  I just want to make sure that I end up with the best one for my purpose in the $400 - $500 price range.  Not sure if it's a TC, Knight or something else, but definetly an inline for simpllicity and ease of cleaning.

Is the KRB not weather resistant?

[snicker]

Fox Ridge Outfitters used to sell an Encore 209X50 barrel with a 1:48 twist for conicals.  Don't know if they still sell them or how well they shoot conicals though as I haven't got a catalog from them for awhile and their website is still down.  But you could call them and ask about it.  1-800-243-4570.  Just a thought if you wanted an Encore.

[sabotloader]

NitroSteel

Is the KRB not weather resistant?

It certainly is and by most reports a pretty decent gun.  The only know on the KRB is that it will not reliably shoot the new BH-209 powder with the current breech plug.  Knight is working on the problem and may get it figured out shortly.  The KRB has a convex faced BP with a very small flash hole - this is down to help reduce blowback out of the breech system.  I THINK another discussion has centered around the trigger is is non adjustable and some have come very stiff.  If you send the gun back to Knight they will of course work on it for you - free of charge.

Underclocked on either of these two forums is an excellent resource for factual information on the KRB.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/

Nitro, I still would not rule out the Encore if you like the gun.  While TC did have some problems with the QLA on some models - it has worked very well on others and is working well for other manufactures.  My Omega will shoot conicals very well and my hunting partner that has a TC Hawkin with a QLA shoot conicals all the time from his.  

Possibly a thought would be to contact TC directly and talk to a tech in the customer service department and get their opinion.

Thompson/Center
P.O. Box 5002
Rochester, NH 03866

Our shipping address for repairs is:

Thompson/Center
400 North Main St.
Rochester, New Hampshire 03867

Or you can call us at: 603-332-2333, or fax us at: 603-332-5133

Another possibility - is there anyone in your area that you know that is shooting a TC.  Maybe you could contact him and ask if he would shoot a few of the REAL's from his gun to verify.  Also I think you mentioned that your friend was the maker of the REAL's - what is he shooting them from?

Again if you get a chance contact UC - he is a straight shooter

One more question... is Colorado your home hunting ground or is a special trip?

[Swampman]

The Knight Long Range Hunter & The Savage ML-II are about as good as it gets.  They can be had fairly reasonable online.

[NitroSteel]

Georgia is my home stomping ground.  We don't have much of a muzzleloader season here (1 week).

My friend that makes and shoots the REAL bullets is shooting a TC Encore and has no problems with them whatsoever,  I just figured IF 1 in 10 has problems, I'd be the one...

I talked to the VERY friendly folks at Knight and they wouldn't say anything bad about TC or TC guns at all.  He did mention that he felt like it would probably shoot better with conicals than the TC's, and it (DISC Extreme) would by far be Knight's best gun for my situation.

I'm looking at new guns:  I found a DISC Extreme for $275 including shipping.  The Encore I was looking at will cost me about $467 total with FFL fee and shipping.  Omega $300, Triumph $350.  Great price on either gun, it's just a matter of which one.  The Triumph stock did have a cheap feel to it...

I won't be shooting any of the muzzleloaders very often.  On the other hand the Encore would be more versatile, but knowing me - - it would become a money pit... 

My argument against the Encore is that you can buy a single shot H&R rifle for about the same price as an Encore barrel and get virtually the same accuracy - you still have to buy a new scope for each barrel on an Encore.

I hope this clarifies the Why's.  Do ya'll vote for one of the TC's or Knight DISC Extreme?

[Swampman]

Knight DISC Extreme for sure!

[mspaci]

I think you will be happy with a disc extreme, I have the disc elite & it is very accurate.  Mike

[sabotloader]

NitroSteel

I started out with my vote... Knight Disc Extreme...  $275 shipped is quite a value...

My friend that makes and shoots the REAL bullets is shooting a TC Encore and has no problems with them whatsoever,

Also, I am really glad to hear that your friend shooting the REAL's is shooting them from the TC Encore and is having great success... that information will probably be lost but it was good to hear...

[mechanic]

I haven't "graduated" to any of the newer break barrel inlines yet, but the Lee REALs I cast shoot great in my TC Blackdiamond.  They will also blow so big a hole in a coyote that there is little to salvage of the pelt but the ears and tail....

Ben

[jrkrk]

CVA Optima Elite great gun. Shoots the powerbelts great don't if there legal for you to use. It also shoots the saboted bullets great with the BH209.

[Underclocked]

The best choice for a conical bullet shooter is the White - no doubt about it.  Knights will often shoot conicals quite well.  The KRB is a poor choice if irons are required as the iron sights are hard to align due to the fit of the stock - you will need to somehow contort your head to achieve good alignment.

[Flatland Hunter]

For conical performance you CANNOT do better than a White... Knight is close second. Between the two you have mentioned definitely the Knight DISC Extreme.

The great thing about a White is it uses #11 caps... and when the gun is capped and loaded it is for all intents and purposes waterproof. You really do not need anything more than a #11 cap to light off a load in a White. The only real negative with a White is that they are for all intents and purposes out of business (Knight made sure of that through frivolous lawsuits) and it is an exposed ignition with a fair amount of blowback... you can find used Whites at great prices. Most are SS barrels with Boyd's laminate or B&C composite stocks, great adjustable triggers, and tooled steel breech plugs. Not much will break or wear out on a White, though there are part sources for Whites around.

Knight is in business, the Extreme - not as much blowback, semi-enclosed igniton, 209 primer (more fire than needed), red Full Plastic Jackets for the primer (unless you get their new system that doesn't need it), nice composite stock, single action screw, adjustable trigger, great barrels (blued is very accurate but rifling can stain when hunting with fouled barrel and it is rainy), several styles of breech plug. Of course Knight is around for warranty purposes.

All in all the Extreme is nice and has the potential to shoot as well as a White and also has the potential to be a good platform for Blackhorn 209 powder with sabots.

[Swampman]

I thought White was out of business?

[Flatland Hunter]

I thought White was out of business?

Thought I said that...

The only real negative with a White is that they are for all intents and purposes out of business (Knight made sure of that through frivolous lawsuits)

The guy who currently owns White Rifles is trying to get it going again but I wouldn't hold my breath. As I said, the White platform is very simple and very durable... there are sources for parts IF any are needed.

[Underclocked]

ourway (Lou) has a couple of Whites for sale.  Great rifles at very good pricing. Contact him  Olblueeyes1937 AT aol.com

Good guy to boot.

[NitroSteel]

I'm going with a Knight Extreme Disc for sure.  As soon as it arrives I'm probably going to "undisc" it.  I'm planning on convertiing it to non FPJ use.  The only thing that I didn't like about the gun was the jackets, one more thing to have to keep up with.   

- It seems perfect without them, that it unless there is a reason that I SHOULD use them that I haven't found in my searching.

I'm open for suggestions as always. 

Also, what's a good (affordable) conical bullet to shoot, just in case I don't like the REAL's? 

Also, I've heard that 777 was a great powder to use, alot cleaner than Pyrodex (was going to use the same Pyrodex that I use in my cannons).  Is there a reason to look to a more expensive/different powder than 777 or is this fine?

Thank ya'll again for your help.

NitroSteel

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Pyrodex is very consistent and burns clean. With triple 7 you will more than likely get a crud ring that will make you have to swab between each shot.  Triple 7 is less corrosive but at the end of the day you still need to clean the rifle so it doesnt really make any difference.  A bucket of hot soapy water and a bore mop does  an excellent job for cleaning. After that i put my cleaning jag on and run a few windex patches and then dry patches followed by a lightly coated rem oil patch.

[sabotloader]

NitroSteel

I think you have made a good decision with the Extreme.

The only reason I stay with the FPJ system is it isolates the breech from water... the moisture will not bother the 209 primer but, it is possible for water, melting snow to work by the 209 and up the flash channel to the powder... but what are the odds? pretty darn low...

I much prefer T7 to any of the pyros... and it is possible you may have to run a swab after each shot, but then again maybe not.  With any of my inlines I can get 3 to 4 shots off and still get the proper bullet seat.  And as BB indicates it is less corrosive than the Pyros... and with T7 it is not necessary to strip clean the gun at the end of the day, the end of the week either.  What you will need to know is that the residue, not the powder - is/can be - corrosive, and then it must have moisture to begin the corrosion process.  The residue is easily removed with a simple windex patch or patches.  You do not have to do the hot water bath just because you shot some T7.  I am currently hunting with an Omega, it was shot on October 8 or 9th to verify POI, windexed patched and reloaded for the beginning of the hunting season on the 10th.  Just for drill I did push the bullet out last week (to cheap to shoot it out).  Here is a pic of the load that was pushed out onto some newspaper.  The gun had been through 3 heavy rain storms and a wet snow storm... soooo I was curious... Patched the barrel with a very slightly oiled patch - then a couple of dry patches - reloaded and it is ready to shoot again.



As you can see the load was fine and the barrel was fine - been doing this for about 6 years now and no ill effects.

If you are uneasy with any of this you can always shoot BH-209 from an Extreme...

Also, what's a good (affordable) conical bullet to shoot, just in case I don't like the REAL's?

Contact - Dan at Bull Shop these are great conicals that slip-fit (he sizes them to fit your bore) with a Extreme you would probably need a .503...

Here is some pics of his conicals.... awesome animal stoppers...

http://bullshop.gunloads.com/contact.html