Author Topic: They have shed their Sheep's Clothing  (Read 985 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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They have shed their Sheep's Clothing
« on: November 08, 2008, 06:49:16 AM »
http://www.carolinajournal.com/articles/display_story.html?id=5081


Carolina Journal Exclusives
Dems Target Private Retirement Accounts
Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

By Karen McMahan

November 04, 2008

RALEIGH — Democrats in the U.S. House have been conducting hearings on proposals to confiscate workers’ personal retirement accounts — including 401(k)s and IRAs — and convert them to accounts managed by the Social Security Administration.

Triggered by the financial crisis the past two months, the hearings reportedly were meant to stem losses incurred by many workers and retirees whose 401(k) and IRA balances have been shrinking rapidly.

The testimony of Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economic policy analysis at the New School for Social Research in New York, in hearings Oct. 7 drew the most attention and criticism. Testifying for the House Committee on Education and Labor, Ghilarducci proposed that the government eliminate tax breaks for 401(k) and similar retirement accounts, such as IRAs, and confiscate workers’ retirement plan accounts and convert them to universal Guaranteed Retirement Accounts (GRAs) managed by the Social Security Administration.

Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., chairman of the House Committee on Education and Labor, in prepared remarks for the hearing on “The Impact of the Financial Crisis on Workers’ Retirement Security,” blamed Wall Street for the financial crisis and said his committee will “strengthen and protect Americans’ 401(k)s, pensions, and other retirement plans” and the “Democratic Congress will continue to conduct this much-needed oversight on behalf of the American people.”

Currently, 401(k) plans allow Americans to invest pretax money and their employers match up to a defined percentage, which not only increases workers’ retirement savings but also reduces their annual income tax. The balances are fully inheritable, subject to income tax, meaning workers pass on their wealth to their heirs, unlike Social Security. Even when they leave an employer and go to one that doesn’t offer a 401(k) or pension, workers can transfer their balances to a qualified IRA.

Mandating Equality

Ghilarducci’s plan first appeared in a paper for the Economic Policy Institute: Agenda for Shared Prosperity on Nov. 20, 2007, in which she said GRAs will rescue the flawed American retirement income system (www.sharedprosperity.org/bp204/bp204.pdf).

The current retirement system, Ghilarducci said, “exacerbates income and wealth inequalities” because tax breaks for voluntary retirement accounts are “skewed to the wealthy because it is easier for them to save, and because they receive bigger tax breaks when they do.”

Lauding GRAs as a way to effectively increase retirement savings, Ghilarducci wrote that savings incentives are unequal for rich and poor families because tax deferrals “provide a much larger ‘carrot’ to wealthy families than to middle-class families — and none whatsoever for families too poor to owe taxes.”

GRAs would guarantee a fixed 3 percent annual rate of return, although later in her article Ghilarducci explained that participants would not “earn a 3% real return in perpetuity.” In place of tax breaks workers now receive for contributions and thus a lower tax rate, workers would receive $600 annually from the government, inflation-adjusted. For low-income workers whose annual contributions are less than $600, the government would deposit whatever amount it would take to equal the minimum $600 for all participants.

In a radio interview with Kirby Wilbur in Seattle on Oct. 27, 2008, Ghilarducci explained that her proposal doesn’t eliminate the tax breaks, rather, “I’m just rearranging the tax breaks that are available now for 401(k)s and spreading — spreading the wealth.”

All workers would have 5 percent of their annual pay deducted from their paychecks and deposited to the GRA. They would still be paying Social Security and Medicare taxes, as would the employers. The GRA contribution would be shared equally by the worker and the employee. Employers no longer would be able to write off their contributions. Any capital gains would be taxable year-on-year.

Analysts point to another disturbing part of the plan. With a GRA, workers could bequeath only half of their account balances to their heirs, unlike full balances from existing 401(k) and IRA accounts. For workers who die after retiring, they could bequeath just their own contributions plus the interest but minus any benefits received and minus the employer contributions.

Another justification for Ghilarducci’s plan is to eliminate investment risk. In her testimony, Ghilarducci said, “humans often lack the foresight, discipline, and investing skills required to sustain a savings plan.” She cited the 2004 HSBC global survey on the Future of Retirement, in which she claimed that “a third of Americans wanted the government to force them to save more for retirement.”

What the survey actually reported was that 33 percent of Americans wanted the government to “enforce additional private savings,” a vastly different meaning than mandatory government-run savings. Of the four potential sources of retirement support, which were government, employer, family, and self, the majority of Americans said “self” was the most important contributor, followed by “government.” When broken out by family income, low-income U.S. households said the “government” was the most important retirement support, whereas high-income families ranked “government” last and “self” first (www.hsbc.com/retirement).

On Oct. 22, The Wall Street Journal reported that the Argentinean government had seized all private pension and retirement accounts to fund government programs and to address a ballooning deficit. Fearing an economic collapse, foreign investors quickly pulled out, forcing the Argentinean stock market to shut down several times. More than 10 years ago, nationalization of private savings sent Argentina’s economy into a long-term downward spiral.

Income and Wealth Redistribution

The majority of witness testimony during recent hearings before the House Committee on Education and Labor showed that congressional Democrats intend to address income and wealth inequality through redistribution.

On July 31, 2008, Robert Greenstein, executive director of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, testified before the subcommittee on workforce protections that “from the standpoint of equal treatment of people with different incomes, there is a fundamental flaw” in tax code incentives because they are “provided in the form of deductions, exemptions, and exclusions rather than in the form of refundable tax credits.”

Even people who don’t pay taxes should get money from the government, paid for by higher-income Americans, he said. “There is no obvious reason why lower-income taxpayers or people who do not file income taxes should get smaller incentives (or no tax incentives at all),” Greenstein said.

“Moving to refundable tax credits for promoting socially worthwhile activities would be an important step toward enhancing progressivity in the tax code in a way that would improve economic efficiency and performance at the same time,” Greenstein said, and “reducing barriers to labor organizing, preserving the real value of the minimum wage, and the other workforce security concerns . . . would contribute to an economy with less glaring and sharply widening inequality.”

When asked whether committee members seriously were considering Ghilarducci’s proposal for GSAs, Aaron Albright, press secretary for the Committee on Education and Labor, said Miller and other members were listening to all ideas.

Miller’s biggest priority has been on legislation aimed at greater transparency in 401(k)s and other retirement plan administration, specifically regarding fees, Albright said, and he sent a link to a Fox News interview of Miller on Oct. 24, 2008, to show that the congressman had not made a decision.

After repeated questions asked by Neil Cavuto of Fox News, Miller said he would not be in favor of “killing the 401(k)” or of “killing the tax advantages for 401(k)s.”

Arguing against liberal prescriptions, William Beach, director of the Center for Data Analysis at the Heritage Foundation, testified on Oct. 24 that the “roots of the current crisis are firmly planted in public policy mistakes” by the Federal Reserve and Congress. He cautioned Congress against raising taxes, increasing burdensome regulations, or withdrawing from international product or capital markets. “Congress can ill afford to repeat the awesome errors of its predecessor in the early days of the Great Depression,” Beach said.

Instead, Beach said, Congress could best address the financial crisis by making the tax reductions of 2001 and 2003 permanent, stopping dependence on demand-side stimulus, lowering the corporate profits tax, and reducing or eliminating taxes on capital gains and dividends.

Testifying before the same committee in early October, Jerry Bramlett, president and CEO of BenefitStreet, Inc., an independent 401(k) plan administrator, said one of the best ways to ensure retirement security would be to have the U.S. Department of Labor develop educational materials for workers so they could make better investment decisions, not exchange equity investments in retirement accounts for Treasury bills, as proposed in the GSAs.

Should Sen. Barack Obama win the presidency, congressional Democrats might have stronger support for their “spreading the wealth” agenda. On Oct. 27, the American Thinker posted a video of an interview with Obama on public radio station WBEZ-FM from 2001.

In the interview, Obama said, “The Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice in society.” The Constitution says only what “the states can’t do to you. Says what the Federal government can’t do to you,” and Obama added that the Warren Court wasn’t that radical.

Although in 2001 Obama said he was not “optimistic about bringing major redistributive change through the courts,” as president, he would likely have the opportunity to appoint one or more Supreme Court justices.

“The real tragedy of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused that I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change,” Obama said.
Deo duce, ferro comitante
With God as my leader and my sword as my companion

Offline Graybeard

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Re: They have shed their Sheep's Clothing
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2008, 06:22:40 PM »
If Americans allow the government to STEAL their savings and do not rise up in armed revolt to prevent it then you can kiss ALL your freedoms good-bye. If folks won't even defend their own life savings what will they defend? Should be very interesting to see what comes of this and what the armed American public does if they try it.

Ya reckon this is why they are trying so hard to take guns away?


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Offline Troyboy

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Re: They have shed their Sheep's Clothing
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2008, 06:48:09 PM »
I believe the mindless that voted bho have not the intestinal fortitude to do the right thing. Give to the government and lets redistribute the wealth



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Offline BBF

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Re: They have shed their Sheep's Clothing
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2008, 04:10:16 AM »
and some of you have called Canada a Socialist country. Even our Govt doesn't dare touch the various RRSP's( Registered Retirement Savings Program) .
Re: Rising in armed revolt. Just where or to what would you march?
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline Heather

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Re: They have shed their Sheep's Clothing
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2008, 04:20:13 AM »
This is insane.  The craziest part of it all is that IMO the masses will follow along with no problem.  With all of insecurities in the financial markets today most will feel that it is safer to depend on the gov than themselves.  Scary huh?  I hope I am wrong.  I hope that people will see through the smoke screen and know that the gov doesn't really have their best interest in mind, but I just know too many people who are easily fooled.  Just look at the millions that voted Obama!

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Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and loose both...Ben Franklin

Offline dw06

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Re: They have shed their Sheep's Clothing
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2008, 08:46:18 AM »
I really thought there would have been more replies than this! Looks like Heather may be right, that the masses will not only allow this to happen, but even agree with it! I am 100% against this, or any other form of "spreading the wealth". Have read where they are considering adding I.R.A. accounts to this also, and while there isn't much I can do about my 401k as its pretty well locked up so you can't get it, the I.R.A.s are mine and if it comes down to it I will pull them out, pay taxes and penalties and to HE** with them.
If you find yourself in a hole,the first thing to do is stop digging-Will Rogers

Offline Swampman

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Re: They have shed their Sheep's Clothing
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2008, 08:50:19 AM »
I'm so glad I took all the money out of my 401k.  I enjoyed spending it.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline dw06

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Re: They have shed their Sheep's Clothing
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2008, 08:55:00 AM »
I'm so glad I took all the money out of my 401k.  I enjoyed spending it.

I'm considering it,have a couple things going on that would allow me to but it may come too late. Time will tell I guess.
If you find yourself in a hole,the first thing to do is stop digging-Will Rogers

Offline slim rem 7

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Re: They have shed their Sheep's Clothing
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2008, 10:19:31 AM »
but greybeard we need leadership..showum this dog got mean long fangs ,,but we need organised leadership.. :)
 just like the blacks have the naacp. wheres an organization thats willing to rattle a saber now an again for us.. whites don t have anything that i know of.. an we need it..

Offline RMD from TX

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Re: They have shed their Sheep's Clothing
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2008, 12:30:48 PM »
I was about to roll my 401k into an IRA but now I'm going to invest it in more firearms. Seriously. Better rate of return.
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: They have shed their Sheep's Clothing
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2008, 12:37:15 PM »
In my mind it is the redistribution of wealth. This is to protect ourselves from ourselves. Give it all to the government and they will decide how, when and who gets it. The ultimate power. Who has 401K's? It is the people that worked hard for their money and saved it over many years, encouraged by our Government. The truly rich have trust accounts, very little of their wealth is in 401K's. There are a lot of middle class people who do not have a dime in 401K's, they should love this idea, where people worked hard and saved money for a rainy day, they found other ways to spend their money, and now the Government is coming along to give them their "fair share". It kind of reminds me of the Ant and the Grasshopper fable; except in this case the Government will come to the Grasshopper's (people who did not save) rescue. The "poor" do not pay taxes and why wouldn't they love it? Another free hand out from our benevolent Government at the expense of people who saved. This is socialism in the extreme. This idea needs to be stopped, I for one will not lay down and let them take away MY money, even though I have less of it than I used to by a large margin, what is left; is still mine.
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Offline torpedoman

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Re: They have shed their Sheep's Clothing
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2008, 03:49:40 PM »
why not let the government run thru that money just like they did the social security money they collected. The average american anymore is a sad critter without the will to stand and fight for what is his or his rights and country They just want their cable so they can watch the game in comfort ,and we are circling the drain right now.
the nation that forgets it defenders will itself be forgotten

Offline Heavy C

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Re: They have shed their Sheep's Clothing
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2008, 04:21:37 PM »
If people think the feds can do a better job; then they are in for a nasty surprise.  Government has shown it is quite inept at managing money.  A guaranteed rate of return doesn't keep up with inflation let alone the taxes they are sure to collect when and if you receive your retirement benefits.  There are unfortunately plenty of people that think this will be a great idea.  It saddens me to know end to see how this country has transitioned to such a state of entitlement. 

The ups and downs of the stock market is what allows for a much greater rate of return in the end.  That is if you keep investing even during tough times like these.  Oh, and hope like heck we can vote in some sensible brain power come 2010.