LET'S DISCUSS DIFFERENCES

[williamlayton]

I sometimes find that some folks don't know what they want and really don't know the questions they want/need too ask to make good decisions.
This is not too say that they are stupid people---I would be hard pressed (see my questions on the Winchester 30-30 beater in the long guns forum)too discuss and make intelligent decisions on rifles and shotguns.
There are a number of things "I THINK" folks need too understand in order too make a purchase.
Now we are not talking game guns, handgun hunting but basic purchases for self defense and protection. Not caliber, for most all calibers are available in a multiple variety of weapons from rollers (most often referred too as revolvers, too semiautomatics).
Let's keep the  hot button words describing a weapon down too a third grade level so that we can communicate more clearly with those in search of understanding.
I am going too discuss the differences in Semiautomatics, for you see, there is a vast difference in these weapons.
A double action is a weapon that can be fired in two methods. 1) by cocking the hammer first and then pulling the trigger. 2) By picking up the firearm from rest and pulling the trigger. These weapons may also be called double action/single action, DA/SA. the second bullet in line will be automatically chambered into the barrel and the weapon is automatically cocked by the recoil action of  firring the first bullet from either a single action pull or cocking first.
BTW---a revolver can be a DA/SA with the exception that the weapon is NOT automatically re-cocked upon firring.
Some of these semiautomatics are made by Sig Sauer, H&K, Walther and a number of American manufacturers.
There are some semiautomatics which are single action only. The venerable Moses Browning 1911 is the best example.
These weapons must be hand cocked first before firring and then the action of the recoil will re-cock the weapon for a second firring.
You guys jump in and add some thoughts.
corrections are accepted.
Blessings   

[John R.]

I happpen to  have a few of each,with my favorites being the 1911's (carrried cocked and locked). Next would be the Springfield XD's,then the Sig Saur's. I am talking about action types now.

[SharonAnne]

William, excellent start of a great topic. Cool!

[williamlayton]

I am hoping that you a the others would jump in here also.
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

for a new comer to self protection it is important that they understand the safety issues and operation of each weapon type . They must also understand the commitment needed to maintain each .
If someone wants a gun by the bed and not interested in a lot of pratice or maintenance the revolver may fit the bill , It may also be for the person who wants to carry but not deal with softies . The auto can also be with out buttons to push but many have them . The auto also has a mag. which takes more effort to load , check loaded chamber etc . It also requires more maintenance which takes a more committed user .
Before getting a weapon the new buyer should decide their need , their commitment to skill and maintenance then buy what fits not what looks neat or a friend of a friend has .
Many years ago ( the mod. 36 was $107.00 ) i ask a gun shop owner which would be better a 3" mod 36 S&W or a Colt 1911 for carry . He was very honest - he said he would rather carry the S&W but have the Colt in a fight , And just about everyone who totes faces the same ?
We live in a world where people have become accustom to being told what they need and go into overload when faced with making a decision like what GUN . Its important as a gun owner we teach them what to consider and not just say buy this , Its the best way to build our ranks with informed people . Keep in mind a gun buyer that has a bad experince may vote to disarm us if the vote comes up !

[bilmac]

Mr Bill
You forgot the double action only auto. My agency was all revolvers and decided to go automatic. They decided to go with double action only Smith and Wessons because the transition would be easier, no buttons or things to remember. To me it was a huge insult to our intelagence and I kept my 6 shooter.

 At our qualifications we usually did something unusual and unexpected, to build up morale and an interest in shooting, one time we did dueling plates for instance. After the change, the rank and file could not hit difficult targets. Guys who were better shots than I were no longer in the ball game. When I had to hit a hard target, I cocked my gun and was able to hit, those guys with their double action onlys were just hopeing.

For shooting across the room at full size targets a DAO is OK, but what if your adversary has cover, but has left an elbow or a knee sticking out? If you have a good single action trigger pull available and are competant you can take advantage of the situation.

Now finding an auto with a good single action trigger pull is a different matter, which is why although I have tried a lot of autos , I have only kept a couple, and they are 22s for playing, not for anything serious.

[williamlayton]

You are correct, I did forget, A Glock is in this category.
A double action only (DAO) is manufactured by many, you have heard of two in this thread.
The important thing too remember is that there are choices and they are not universal choices--one correct and all others wrong.
The reason for this thread is to try and familiarize the novice with choices and understanding.
The DAO is not cockable by the universal hammer. The hammer is internal and is cocked when a round is chambered. It can only be fired by the long pull of the trigger, each time.
There are, in fact, some revolvers which are this way.
There are safety usually devices on these which prevent pulling the trigger---but not always.
These understandings will help a bunch when making a decision, by allowing you too know what too ask and knowing what you are looking at.
Let's hear some more and some advice on things too look for and questions too ask.
I would particularly like someone of knowledge too discuss the working of the Sigs and Walthers, the safeties and their operation.
Blessings

[slim rem 7]

 to me its been a bit confusing.. i do know i prefer the double single..
followed by the single.. the usually long pull of the double action only ,makes it the least desirable to me.. but of course one of my favorites is the kel tec p3at ,a doubl only . id rather it was single as i cut my teeth cocking my pistols coming out the pocket or holster.
 i have managed to gain some skill with the keltec too..

[bilmac]

Yes a few years ago when it seemed like there was some hot new auto every week, all kinds of different things were being invented and I'm not up to speed on all of the stuff. But then I'm no fan of autos.

[nessmuk101]

I also prefer the revolver.  I think that some on some auto's you have to rack the slide if the round does not fire and on some you just pull the trigger again on the same round. 

[Brett]

I also prefer the revolver.  I think that some on some auto's you have to rack the slide if the round does not fire and on some you just pull the trigger again on the same round. 

Yes some semi-automatic pistols like Kel-Tec's P-11 have second strike capabilities others you have to draw the slide back at least a quarter of an inch to reset the hammer/trigger mechanism.

William, good post.  My only question is that I not sure what you meant by "a revolver can be a DA/SA with the exception that the weapon is NOT automatically re-cocked upon firring."  I think what you are saying is that you can manually cock the hammer on most DA revolvers (provided it is not a hamerless style) giving you a shorter and lighter trigger pull.   Not to be confused with a DA/SA pistol which has a long, heavy DA trigger pull on the first shot and a shorter, lighter SA pull on subsequent shots because the action of the slide recoiling automatically cocks the hammer and strips the next round out of the clip and into the chamber. 

[Empty Quiver]

A difference that many men can't appreciate is loading a wheel gun vs. a semi auto. Getting that slide back was a chore for my wife, she doesn't seem to have the wrist or hand strength. Practice with an auto has helped her a bunch and now isn't a problem as she has developed a technique that suits her. For a very casual user the revolver is probably a good choice, with some training and occasional range time a semi auto can be a much better weapon choice if you are going to carry. A semi auto is more compact and the flat profile is easy to cover up. Once you get past the snub nose revolvers finding a holster designed for concealed carry is harder. Firing many semi autos with the muzzle in contact with target is impossible due to the gun being pushed out of battery, a revolver doesn't have this problem.

[williamlayton]

Brett
That is a good observation and one of the problems a novice will encounter in his/her decision making process.
DA/SA, double action/single action asre hot words used to describe how a weapon is fired.
A revolver CAN be a SA only, CAN be DA only, CAN be DA/SA.
It can be fired with the hammer at rest on the chamber by the long pull of the trigger (DA only), MUST be cocked before fireing (SA only--The old Colt Peacemaker/Roy Rogers Guns), or it can be fired either way (DA/SA--the Colt lightening).
There are semiautomatics manufactured with much the same mechanisms.
Folks hear these hot words and sometimes misinterpret them.
In a conversation once with a friend he was amazed too learn that not all semiautomatics worked like the Colt .45 1911.
Blessings

[Brett]

In another thread entitled ".38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380" I outlined a few conciderations when choosing a   a carry gun that fit well into this thread as well.

    
Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2008, 09:02:46 PM »
   
Depends on your level of knowledge and/or desire to learn the proper handling and care of the weapon.

Ease of operation:

Semi-auto pistols often have a plethora of levers and buttons (safeties, slide releases, decocking levers, magazine releases, etc.) that you will have to be intimately familiar with if you are going to trust your life to it.  You had also learn and practice the TAp-RAck-Bang drill in case of a stove pipe (failure to fully eject a spent case) or Failure to Fire (FTF).

Revolvers - Point gun, squeeze trigger, bang!   In the 1 in a 1,000 chance that it does not go bang, squeeze the trigger again.


Care and feeding:

An auto loader requires more maintenance and more mechanical aptitude than does a revolver.  If an automatic pistol is carried in a pocket, especially without a pocket holster, it will collect lint and debris that can cause a  (FTF) at the most inconvenient time.  To avoid this I recommend two things, 1. Use a holster. 2. Field strip, (entails the removal of the slide and barrel), clean and test fire any auto pistol used for concealed carry at least once a month.

Revolvers on the other hand usually operate without a hitch even when they are filthy dirty and don't require the removal of any parts for a general cleaning.  However, I still recommend the use of a holster as a safety measure.   This goes for ladies hand bag carry as well.  Keep you piece in a separate compartment away from hair brushes, lip stick, ballpoint pens, car keys or any other objects that could get entangled  in the trigger causing an Accidental Discharge (AD).  Or better yet invest in one of those handbags designed specifically for CCW holders with a built in easy access  holster.

Auto-pistols can be ammo sensitive, not wanting to feed some brands or types of ammo properly causing jambs and FTFs.

Though a revolver may shoot some ammo more accurately than an other I have yet to see or hear of anyone experiencing a jamb or FTF due to a particular brand or style of ammo.

Capacity And Concealability:

Where the revolver may have an edge over most semiautomatic pistolsl in ease of operation and nearly fool proof reliability, with a few notable exceptions you only get five or six shots out of the revolver before it runs dry.  A full size duty pistol on the other hand can hold nineteen or more rounds.  Concealability is another area where the semi-auto pistol could hold an advantage.  the girth of a revolver is dictated by the revolving cylinder which holds the ammo. Even a 5 shot J-frame snubby is portly when compared side by side to some of the sub-compact semi-auto's having a single stack magazine.

In summery, revolvers tend to be more user friendly but pistols generally give you more rounds at the ready in a trimmer package.

Making the decision to carry a firearm for self defense is one not to be taken lightly.  I believe we have the God given right to defend ourselves and our loved ones from violent encounters however we also have the responsibility to do so in a responsible manner.  Get the proper firearms training before you start to carry. Know when and where the use of deadly force is appropriate and legal.  Whether you choose a revolver or a semi-automatic pistol be sure that you are intimately familiar with it's operation and maintenance and most of all practice, practice, practice.

   
Hope this helped.

[45-70.gov]

i  like the smith 640 [what i carry] in  357mag
if  you need to ask ... then  i recomend the 642 to  my customers in  38spl

i  know there are  some good beginner proof autos....they will  loose  the clip  tho

if  they  get  another gun later  the j-frame  smith  is a must  have  any way

[williamlayton]

Let's not let this evolve into a which is better thread. We have been doing a pretty good job of describing the differences.
The Sig Sauer's and Walthers have a decocker mechonism which allows for the hammer too fall without fireing. This is good because of the inherant dangers of holding the hammer, pulling the trigger and lowering the hammer. There is an added plus too this as the hammer is blocked so that the weapon will not fire if the hammer is struck, as in dropping it.
Blessings

[Brett]

Let's not let this evolve into a which is better thread. We have been doing a pretty good job of describing the differences.

No problem William.  I like both myself.  And both offer their on pros and cons.   Speaking of which I forgot to mention concealability and capacity in my above post I will go back and modify it. 

[SHOOTALL]

one simple thing is the pocket pistol , revolver or just gun. I find it easier to grab the revolver fron a pocket than an auto . seems the cyl. holds the pocket open somewhat giving my hand room to slide in and grip the gun .
i have tried Bretta tom cat , hsc , 380 back up , golck 27 , kel-tec 32 , colt govt. 380 and mustang , K-40 , sig 230 and 239 .
some were to big for sure others to small in val. ( for me ) but all were flat and hard to grip .

[docmagnum357]

Brett,
I wish i had your way with words.I tend to piss people off when I go to telling them about what Kind of weapon I think a new person should have.  Very few who come to my ccw classes have any idea what defensive shooting is all about.  I was a long wasy down the road when I started carrying 24/7 about seven years ago.  Most  Police afficers don't have a clue, because their traing doesn't involve much reguarding staing concealed. and does involve a lot about keeping their(department's )butt covered.

I teach with GLOCKS, and with Smith and wesson revolvers, but it is primarily to keep things simple.  Qualifiying is at 21 feet in NC, but I am scared to death of what a student might bring to class, so I furnish handguns for qualifying.  It saves them money, and exposes them to a GLOCK( with conversion kit, or a K frame Smith.  A lot more of them have tried to buy the Smiths....

I encourage them to bring their personal handguns to class, and show others how to clear, strip, and operate their handgun.  I believe that Beretta and Sig both have three seperate operating systems for their service pistols.  Can you spell LIABILITY for a trainer, even a CCW trainer, whose primary job is to teach legal and safety matters? 

I realize that different people are different, and try to stress that in class.  I am a really big guy, and can hide about anything, as well as control it.  I get some of my best rewards teaching little old people to shoot.  I hate to see those old gray heads in fear... If I can do anything to help them feel safe, I will.  But I really worry when a man close to eighty brings in an "army .45"  that he was trained on, and probably used in the Corps....Hard to tell him much.  He would be a lot better off with a good revolver.

[Mohawk]

  Unless some policy regulates carry what you are comfortable and familiar with. Even the .38 lead round nose became a good performer when tactics such as using cover, concealment, and get distance were employed. When you're trained to leave cover to empty a revolver nothing really works, you are a sitting duck. If you can accurately empty a Smith model 31 in .32 Long then that is what you should carry, or at least I would, as opposed to a Glock 22 in .40 that is uncomfortable.......

[Brett]

Thanks for the complement Docmagnum357.  Where in NC do you hold your CCW classes?  I live in Stanly County just outside of Charlotte and took my CCW class in Locust.

[SHOOTALL]

wouldn't it be nice if say S&W would come out with a personal defence revolver for non gun nuts , A gun and ammo combo ! maybe a bit ( but not much) bigger than a j frame chambered in 10mm. ammo sold already with full moon clips installed and for pratice or lighter recoil the same in 40S&W . Use a light weight frame 2 1/2 inch bbl , fixed sights . Not assortment of ammo to confuse . Maybe a house/car gun in steel with 3-4 inch bbl.

can dream can't i ?

If it hit the market they could keep up with demand !

BTW, if anyone at S&W or other manf. it wouldn't be a bother to field test for ya'll just send a couple and tons of ammo !

[Mohawk]

  I'm just thankful they brought back carbon steel and blued and nickel finishes. And the N-frames, too!!

[Savage]

I own both DA and SA revolvers as well as DA/SA/DAO pistols. Some of the DAOs have second strike capability. Each one fills it's own niche. For concealed carry, it's hard to beat the legendary reliability and simplicity of the DA revolver. For ruggedness and durability, the auto will take more abuse and continue to run under extreme conditions. Both will do the job equally well for most of us, regardless of our choice of action.
Savage

[SHOOTALL]

savage that's alot of truth but i would say the small revolver is more rugged than a small auto and the large auto is more rugged than the large revolver . Or maybe replace rugged with less sensitive to abuse !

[OldCoon]

I prefer a revolver over a pistol mainly because of reliability.  I have semi automatics but I have seen them get finicy over brands of ammunition.  A little dirt can cause stovepiping.   I can't have that.   I can take my little S & W Airweight .38, throw it in the mud, step on it and it will come up firing.  I can't say that about my Colt or Glock pistols.   Too much plastic on pistols now days anyway.   They remind me of toys.   I swear they should have Mattel stamped on them.

[SHOOTALL]

MY POINT , had a walther ppks that would jam when a little pocket dirt got in , my airweight never a problem .

[Savage]

OC,
Let's not be stepping on that J frame too hard! Doesn't take much to damage the crane or yoke and put it out of commission. Hey, I've seen sprung cranes just from mishandling. Also mud or grit inside the works can render it inoperable quickly. It will require removal of the sideplate/ internals and a good through clean and lube to get it back up to speed. I have seen one that was rusted so bad internally that you couldn't pull the trigger.
That said, undernormal conditions a revolver is super reliable. Most people just don't know how easy it is to disable one thru dropping, mishandling, or neglect.
Shootall is correct in that the large frame revolvers are a little harder to damage to the point of failure than autos.
I like both the revolver and the pistol, but recognize the downside of both.
Savage

[SHOOTALL]

best plan then would be several of each ?

[Dee]

I have carried both extensively, and fought once with each. My first fight was with a Model 28 Smith carrying 125 grain hollow points. One reload on the move, but managed to make it. Four rounds left when the fight was over. No casualties, opponent surrendered.

Second fight was carrying a Colt Lightweight Commander in 45 acp. Five rounds fired, two opponents, no reload necessary. Both opponents went to hospital, both survived.

Revolver had more power against obstacles of cover, in this case a 1975 Chevy Malibu.


1911 was quicker, and although no reload was necessary, at the time of the fight (June 1978) I was much younger and could fire 12 rounds with a reload in the middle with 100% accuracy in under 6 seconds. Not bad for a street gun, and it was a confidence builder. One of the outlaws said I cheated. I guess I did since I won.

This fight also involved an auto for cover. A brand new stolen 1978 Buick Regal. Poor penetration, but the problem was resolved.

I would still fight with either if I had to, but prefer the 1911. The advantages are obvious, at least to me.

Concealment can be managed if one is serious about carrying a suitable weapon to win a fight. At the present, in the summer, I sometimes carry a Model 60 Smith in 357 mag. Gave up on a Ruger SP101 as too heavy. The rest of the time I carry a Kimber Custom TLE II in 45acp. But that's just me.